shush pat questions (long sorry!)

[louismum]

Hi all

My dd is 5 months old. At 4 months her sleep regressed and made us take a look at how we were dealing with her sleep. Before 4 months she had been waking just once or twice at night (ebf) and had done long night sleep stretches from very early on. Then 4 months hit and she started waking up more at night and being a lot harder to settle. This coincided with the very hot weather so we left it for a couple of weeks but it has persisted since it cooled down. Naps have always been tricky although we've been doing EASY since a few weeks old. I have a ds too and the pattern worked really well for him although he was a little easier than dd... She has always fought sleep and cried a lot at attempts to get her down into the cot so from birth to this 4 month regression we had been rocking her to sleep and then putting her in her cot (she's in her own room) and just at bedtime, feeding to sleep.

So, last week we started shush pat and went cold turkey on rocking to sleep and she stopped feeding to sleep herself. I have some questions though as life is not as simple now we're not using the props anymore!!

1. First few days of shush pat worked like a dream but then she started resisting like she knew what was coming. Is this normal?

2. We are trying not to pick her up at all but give her the odd cuddle if really upset and put down straight away afterwards. Does this then count as PUPD?

3. She resists lying on her side for patting although this is the only way it works for her and often tries to roll onto her back. Any tricks to stop her doing this or make her feel more comfortable? After all she has been on her back since birth so asking a lot to change sleeping positions.

4. When do I start to wean shush pat so it doesn't become a prop itself? At the moment she needs a lot of intervention to calm down and fall asleep but it does work if we're persistent. However, it feels like she still needs us a lot and I'm wondering when to stop doing so much

5. Currently we're using shush pat after the bedtime feed but in the night I am still bfeeding her (twice max) and the other times trying to shush. Does this sound ok for night feeds at this age or should we try shush patting for one of these too?

6. Despite our good routine and watching like a hawk for sleepy signs, she still only takes 40 min naps!! Her longest recently was an hour and that is usually the thirsd nap of the day. She copes just about on these short naps but I always think she could do with a bit more sleep!

Here is an example of our routine from today:

E - 7.30 am
A - watching brother and playing on mat
S - 9.30 - 10.15 (very resistant to this nap and cried a fair bit) woke happy though

E - 10.30
A - At home in bouncy chair
S - 1 - 1.40 (tricky again) woke a bit grumpy

E - 2
A - Walk in the park with ds
S - 4.40 - 5.15 woke crying but easy to get down.

E - 5.30
A - whatever she can tolerate!
S - 7 pm after bath and feed then will sleep til 1 ish after 10.30 dream feed.
Next wake up around 5 then back to sleep til 7. Settles quickly between feeds in general.

I think she is overtired but try so hard to get her to sleep as it is for naps, not keen on trying wake to sleep... Also her feeds are still about 3.5 hourly although sometimes I can stretch her til 4 hours. Is this a problem? Short naps are driving me crazy so any advice gratefully received!

[Violet's mom]

The one thing I see based on her routine is her A times are a little low in the am, then get too long as the day goes on.  I like to think if she has a nap that is less than 1 hr - that's half of what she should be getting and I adjust her A time accordingly!  You are in the dreaded UT then OT cycle that I went through!  Have you tried extending naps with shh/pat or holding her through jolts?  Also, at that age, if she wakes happy from a nap you could try just letting her be - my LO would sometimes go back to sleep after 10-15 mins of quietly talking to herself.

IRT shh/pat on her back - my LO used to lay on her back so I would pat her chest or side and it still worked.  Depends on the LO.

If she is resisting you can try just patting.  She might be old enough where they shhhh might be bothersome.  At this age, I wouldn't worry about making shh/pat a prop - eventually you can slow it down or just place your hand on them as they fall asleep.  My 6.5 month old still likes my hand on her chest for a minute when I put her down which I am fine with.

Two night feeds is normal.  You can work out one of them if she starts waking up and then playing a little bit - just let her put herself back to sleep if she doesn't cry at all.

HTH!!

[louismum]

Violetsmum! Thanks so much for taking the time to reply to my message. Interesting what you say about the morning A time as dh has always says that she doesn't seem tired enough....her whining just gets unbearable though so I have to put her to bed! Actually the first nap of the day is usually the easiest too and they get progressively harder as the day goes on (as she gets more tired). So far today she has had two short naps both in her cot and she seems to be fighting a little less now. I hope as the weeks wear on she will just get used to the new regime and take less time to settle/not cry every time. She actually cries a bit when we get into her bedroom as she knows its nap time; hope I haven't set up a bad association....

I tried patting her chest today and it nearly worked but still ended up rolling her onto her side. Trouble is she will often roll herself onto her back which can wake her up. Still working on that one!

Last night she just woke once which was great! Did a dreamfeed at 10 then she woke at 3.30, fed and didn't wake again until 7.45!! This was a great night and makes me not worry about the naps so much... she does seem to cope ok on those short naps and I do wonder if it's just a developmental thing that she will grow out of...hope so.

Anyway, thanks again xx

[Violet's mom]

Yay for a good night!  We need those every once in a while!

Honestly you can shh/pat until you make yourself crazy - I sure did!  I would work on increasing A time, I actually have to still hold V for the last 15 mins of her A time to keep her from fussing and the crying as you put them down for a nap IS something they grow out of - V was tough to get to nap at 5 months but now I put her down, place my hand on her if she cries out at all, and she sleeps for 1.5 to 2 hrs as long as I keep her A time around 3 hrs - otherwise I end up with maybe an hour which from experience I know is just not enough for my LO.

[brummum]

Great advice from Violet's mom.

We are trying not to pick her up at all but give her the odd cuddle if really upset and put down straight away afterwards. Does this then count as PUPD?

Yes, the idea with PUPD is that you try to sooth in the cot with ssh pat but that you pick up if need but return her to the cot once calm (at this age, it changes slightly as they get older). It's fine to pick her up a this age. Have you had a look at the link below? It describes how to do PUPD at different ages.

How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)

She resists lying on her side for patting although this is the only way it works for her and often tries to roll onto her back. Any tricks to stop her doing this or make her feel more comfortable? After all she has been on her back since birth so asking a lot to change sleeping positions.

We did ssh pat on his side and then rolled him onto his back when calm and continued ssh patting. I can remember the back ache just thinking about it!

When do I start to wean shush pat so it doesn't become a prop itself? At the moment she needs a lot of intervention to calm down and fall asleep but it does work if we're persistent. However, it feels like she still needs us a lot and I'm wondering when to stop doing so much

I wouldn't think of it in terms of weaning so to speak. I would approach it from the point of view that each time you settle her you are doing the least you can to assist. So at the moment that may be ssh patting til asleep but when you feel that is working you can try to ssh pat until calm and then just leave your hand there and continuing to ssh her or if you are lucky she may be happy for you to remove your hand altogether and stop the sshing. It really depends on the baby how quickly they will let you progress but if you keep in mind 'assist as little as possible' that should guide you well. That is the approach I took anyway. The link below may help, it details why shh pat and PUPD aren't considered 'props'.

Why are Shush Pat and PU/PD not props?

Currently we're using shush pat after the bedtime feed but in the night I am still bfeeding her (twice max) and the other times trying to shush. Does this sound ok for night feeds at this age or should we try shush patting for one of these too?

Like Violet's Mom said 2 feeds is totally normal at this point. At this age I was feeding at any wake up after the duration he could go between feeds in the day. So for example if she is going 4hrs between feeds in the day I would feed at any wake up that was 4 hrs after the last feed. The other wake ups I would settle with a combination of ssh pat and PUPD if required.

In relation to your routine 40/45min naps are typically undertired naps (so they weren't tired enough to do a long restorative nap of 1.5hrs+) so I definately think increasing her awake times is the way to go. However, like you have mentioned short naps can be developmental at this age. It's worth working on her routine though as sleep training is often harder and takes longer if little one is overtired or undertired.

The only other thought I had is whether she will let you accidental parent one of the naps to get a good long restorative one just to prevent her getting over tired? So will she do a long nap out in the buggy? in a sling? in a rocker? At this age you are aiming for 2 long naps (1.5hr+) and a cat nap late afternoon (45mins ish) which is the 'average' day time sleep needs for a 4 month old.

Hope this helps.