Please help us get back on track - we have lost our way! 6 months....

[empowered mama]

Hello,

DS2 just turned 6 months 5 days ago and we are in a strange EW pickle lately.  We just dropped the CN and he was doing 3 hrs A time.  Now all of a sudden he has woken at 4AM, seeming wide awake, and will not get back to sleep for another hour or so.  He seems quite crabby all day for an otherwise happy, pleasant baby.  I suspect there certainly is OT somewhere in there, but really confused how to remedy this. 

Any thoughts? 

[Violet's mom]

Can you post your routine?  Could it be hunger?

Also, what time is bedtime?  I just dropped the catnap too and my LO goes to bed at 6:30pm, wakes for a night feed around 4am, then back to sleep until 6:30am.

[empowered mama]

Thank you for your reply violet's mom.  I do not think it is hunger-related, as I did try to feed him and he wanted nothing of the bottle.  Thankfully, last night there was not a 4AM party, but there was an EW at 5:30.  Here was our routine yesterday:

EW @ 4 AM, back to sleep around 5

Up at 6:50
E- 7:15
A -
S - 9:50 - 11:50

E - 12
A -
S - 2:50 - 4:10

E - 4:30
A -
 
BT - 6:50

So he ended up with 10.5 hrs. night sleep which I do not think is quite enough.  You think he is OT a little from pushing him without that CN? 

[Violet's mom]

Looking at this correctly - is his afternoon nap 1 hr 20min?  That usually means they are slightly undertired.  Maybe try pushing afternoon A time by 5 minutes?  I know my LO has night parties when she is not getting enough activity during the day.  Aim for 1.5 hr to 2 hr naps.  Yeah I agree its tough getting rid of that third nap - V goes to bed around 7 and gets up for the day around 6:15 (ugh).

Also, he might be getting a little less A time then needed in the evening - what temperament is he?

[empowered mama]

Yes, he does these 1h10 and 1h20min naps and I have wondered if they are OT as he seems still tired after he wakes up.  The good news is, we haven't had another 4AM party, however today was a 5:15 wake up (!)  This was the routine yesterday:

Awake @ 5:30
E - 5:45
A -
S - 9:30- 10:40

E - 11:00
A -
S - 12:30-2:30

E - 2:45
A -
S - 5:30-6:00

E - 6:15
A -
 
BT - 7:30, wake up today at 5:15

Not sure what is going on here?  He is an angel type and I have a hunch that his A times decrease as the day goes on.  I wish I could AP him in the early morning, but not much gets him back to sleep.  Any ideas?

[empowered mama]

Hello friends,

My poor DS2 is so OT right now and I don't know how to remedy it.  He is EW nearly every morning around 5:15/5:30 and I don't know how to get his day on track.  Seems if I offer a CN, then his day is too long and we get another EW the next morning.  If I do not give a CN, then his BT would be at 5:15/5:30PM, as I don't think he can handle more than 3 hrs A time.  Is there anything else I can possibly do right now?  Should I just offer that ridiculously early BT and hope for the best?

Please help us work this out!  TIA....

[Ima shel Alon]

It does seem to me that he is UT. The 1:10h, 1:20h long naps would indicate that as well as the EW. I would try and push his A times by 10min and see if that helps. Hopefully by then you would also not need to do the CN anymore as it's probably time for him to drop it (though I imagine you offered it yesterday because it was too long A time before BT).

[Ima shel Alon]

I have just noticed you had another thread on the board so I merged both of them together.

Are you sure he can't stay awake for 3h? Often when increasing A times (AND on top of that dropping the CN) baby can look OT and seem not to handle the extra A time, but actually without the increased A time he does Ut naps. That was the case for us always and for a very long time I had to carry DS for the last 30min of his A time on my arms because he was so fussy, but if I tried to put him for his nap when I THOUGHT he was ready I always got an Ut nap.

If you are certain that he is OT from the last few days then I would offer as much sleep as possible for the next couple of days, AP if you need to and then start with the increased A time again.

[empowered mama]

Thank you for your response!  That is interesting about those naps - I thought someone had advised me back with DS1 that 1h10 and 1h20 naps were OT, but I suppose it could be worth a shot to push it and see.  I know he can handle 3 hrs A time after an 11-12 hour night; however, it has been some time since he has had a really good night like that.  I am quite certain that he is very OT at this point, as he only got 9 hrs last night and has been hyper and fussy all day.  Perhaps there was an UT-causing-OT cycle that happened here...

Can I ask you - if he has an EW again tomorrow (which is likely) would you offer a BT between 5/6 PM, or try for a CN and BT between 7/8?  Is there a point where the CN can perpetuate EWs?

[Violet's mom]

I would aim for the early bedtime just to give him a restart.  For example, my LO has been waking at 5:30 am (needs more A time I'm thinking/or digestive issues) for a few days now so I put her down yesterday at 5:45, she woke at 5:30am again today BUT we had improved naps so I was able to keep her A time around 3 hr 5 min (yes my LO needs her A time to be perfect!) and she went to bed at her normal time.  I attribute this to the fact that she had a full nights sleep and was much easier to work with.  Will keep you posted about her wake up tomorrow!

I had received conflicting OT/UT nap info before but ima shel alon really helped me get my naps on track!  Looking at your aug 21st EASY I can see he was OT from long AM A time, then you really shortened his A time like you should if there's a short nap, got a great 2 hr nap.  Maybe his day was too long in general? I know 13 hr days are a little too much for my 7 month old, and 14 hr days she just can't handle personally. 

HTH!

[Violet's mom]

Ok it worked because she slept til 6:15 today - and hopefully back to 6:30 tomorrow!  Good luck

[empowered mama]

Thank you ladies - I really appreciate your support   Today he woke with about 11ish hrs night sleep and I offered a 3hr A time, and out pops that 1h10min nap.  So perhaps he needs a little push tomorrow.  Would you go ahead and do another full 3 hrs A time after a nap like that?

I agree with what you're saying about the extra long day when tacking in that CN.  It seems to continue the EWs when we do it.  There is always a fear that if I put my LO to bed at 5:30, then he will wake at 4:30!  But it sounds like it may be a better option, I believe.  I may give it a shot and hope for the best!

[Violet's mom]

I usually give a little less A time if the nap is not restorative (<1.5 hrs).  Let me know how things go!

[empowered mama]

Wow ladies, things have definitely been improving   We had a great day yesterday and a decent night (11.5 hrs!).  I pushed him to 3h15 this morning and we got a 2 hr nap.  However, getting him to bed was a struggle and took an extra hour.  This was our day:

Wake up @ 6:15
E- 6:30
A -
S - 9:30  (2 hr nap)

E - 11:45
A -
S - 2:30 (1h20min nap - maybe should have pushed again?)

E - 4:00
A -
S - tried to get him down on 3 hrs A time around 6:45, but then he fought BT for an hour.  Fell asleep around 7:45.

Do you think I missed his window for bed and he got a second wind?  We shall see how the night goes.  Feeling like we are getting back on track though

[Ima shel Alon]

Great that you already see an improvement!

1h10 and 1h20 naps were OT

Only when they are on one nap, but in general OT naps are 30-35min long and Ut naps are 45-1:25h long. Another indication is how they wake up from the nap - grumpy or happy and chatty.

Can I ask you - if he has an EW again tomorrow (which is likely) would you offer a BT between 5/6 PM, or try for a CN and BT between 7/8?  Is there a point where the CN can perpetuate EWs?

I would say yes, CN can cause EW if there is too much day sleep, not enough A before BT... but in your case I would try both, perhaps first like Violet's mom suggested, the EBT and if that doesn't work then I would try a CN and normal BT (but just for a few days).

I think he was OT at BT, but it's more of a guess, yk? I never gave a full A time at the end of the day, i found DS just couldn't handle that even if he napped well.

[empowered mama]

Thank you for your response Ima shel Alon; all that is very helpful and makes total sense to me. 

Right now we seem to have taken a trip back to OT-land and are trying to get back to a fresh start.  It appears the hardest part of the day is that A time before bed, and I agree with you - my gut is telling me he is OT by bed and fighting sleep.  Can I ask how much you would shorten your last A for your LO before bed?  Maybe 15 minutes or so?

[Violet's mom]

For me it depended on her last nap.  For example - 1.5 hr nap I did a 2 hr 35 min A before bed, 2 hr nap - 2 hr 45 min.  She sometimes rarely would last the 3 hrs but now at 7 months old she does!

[Ima shel Alon]

You won't believe me if I told you but at this age he could have napped in the PM and then go to bed no problem after 1.5h!!!
Our problem was that the last nap finished so late and I thought that with a full A time BT will be like at 20:30 which was 1.5h later than what we usually did and I just didn't want that. I posted here and some mommies told me to try and have a short A time before BT, let the second nap finish whenever it finishes and keep BT at the same time as always (19 for us). I was ssssoooooooo reluctant but it really did work!

[empowered mama]

Very interesting about that BT - did you still get a 12 hr night with such a short last A time?

We are definitely improving, though there are a few things that might need tweaking.  This was our day yesterday:

Wake up - 7:20 (hallelujah!)
E - 7:45
A -
S - 10:35 (2 hr nap)

E - 12:45
A -
S - 3:55 (1h25 min nap - had a hard time settling and woke up crying)

E - 5:30
A -
S - tried for a BT with 2h15min A, but did not settle in until 8:05; last A time was 2h45min

-today woke up at 6:30 with 10.5 hrs night sleep

Trying to figure if things are OT or UT for that 2nd nap and BT.  Any hunches?

TY ladies....

[Ima shel Alon]

When did you try and put him down for his second nap? How long did it take him to settle?

[Violet's mom]

What time did you put him down when you got the 7:20am wake up?  And were there night wakings at all?

[empowered mama]

The 2nd A time was 3h20min; took him 10-15min to settle which is unusual for him.  Typically I lay him down and he is out within 5 min max.

After him waking for the day at 7:20, I put him down for the first nap after 3h15A time (got the 2 hr nap); then he went to bed at 8:05 that night.  I think there was a brief NW around 12 or so, then I heard him sometime around 3-4 AM, then up at 6:30. 

He seems to be wanting a really high A time in the morning now; today I put him down around 3h25 A time and he gave me a 1h15min nap.  Is it unheard of for a 6.5 month old to do a 3.5 A time? 

[Ima shel Alon]

DS was also on really high A times. Is he waking ok from the 1:15h nap?

How was second nap yesterday and today? If you still have problems with it (even though 1:25h is a good nap) I wuld try and tweak this A time a bit, perhaps try and offer 10min more, so 3.5h A time or shorten it to 3:10h and see if it helps - it's really hard to know if he is UT or OT.

[empowered mama]

He does seem relatively happy after the 1h15 nap, though he was ready for nap #2 by 3hrs A time and then took a 2 hr nap.  Today however, he has me a little mystified:

Up at 6:35
1st A = 3h25, got a 1h20min nap

2nd A = 3h10, with a 1h10min nap

Not terrible naps, but it's leaving me scratching my head.  I wonder if I push that 1st A a little more, and scale back on the 2nd A, then we can see what happens.  Always a tweak around the corner, eh?

[Violet's mom]

V has been napping about the same for the past couple days no matter what a time she has lately - has been pretty happy during the day afterwards but now is waking more frequently at night.  Always something! 

[Ima shel Alon]

I think that as much as tweaking is important and often 5min would solve the problem, it's also important to give LOs enough time to get used to their A. I wouldn't make any conclusions based on yesterday, I would just stick to the same A times for 2 more days and then we can see.

[empowered mama]

How are you getting on violet's mom?  Any luck with longer naps yet?

[Violet's mom]

I think we've turned a corner actually.  She gets two 1.25 to 1.75 hr naps during the day but has been consistently sleeping 7 to 7 at night with one wake to feed at 4ish, although two nights ago she slept through so I think we are getting there!  Much happier baby, even with 1 hr naps.  I think the nighttime sleep is what she needed most!  How are things with you?

[empowered mama]

Wow that is great news   I agree on the nighttime sleep - when my LO gets a good night, the day is a breeze even if the naps aren't perfect.

We are up and down a little, though making progress I think.  Still getting shorter nights, like 10-10.5 hrs so the tweaking continues.  However, we also got a few nights with no wake-ups, so that was something to celebrate  

Out of curiosity, how old is your LO and what are her current A times?

[Violet's mom]

She is 7.5 months - yours has to be about 7 by now right?  Yeah last night she slept 7:15 to 6am with no night wakings!  First time ever!  Glad you are making some progress too!