The 2-1 journey continues....

[Joy-filled]

Alright, here's what I finally think.  After 13 months I think I've finally clued in that Aaron is definitely LSN and so we've been in a constant state UT/OT loop.  He has short napped due to both UTness and OTness leading to more OTness and I've constantly been confused because he's both UT and OT.  Occasionally he'd nap long but this was because he was OT enough that he wasn't UT  . As a newborn he got 10-12 hrs of sleep in a 24 hr period due to gas.  Once that resolved, though, he would fight and fight sleep and we would sh/pat for hours and hours as he would wake up after 5-10 min constantly.  It was ridiculous.  So I don't think he was that LSN but nonetheless, he's never slept much and while I think there's a variety of reasons why, I do think he's LSN. He has slept 14 hrs maybe 5 times in his life and a few of those days he was ill with a fever and the others were after a few days of incredibly bad sleep where he had a CU day.  So....the fact that no matter what I do he very rarely sleeps 13.5 hrs in a 24 hr period, tells me he must be LSN.  I think I've never been able to figure out the "right" A times for him because as soon as I'd bump it, I'm guessing I'd bump it to what he needed for his state of UT/OTness but he'd get over that practically immediately but since I'd keep it the same he'd be right back into the UT/OT loop.  I think if I'd bumped and then bumped again right away maybe it would've kept us from constantly going back into the UT/OT state  .  I think what has always thrown me for a loop is that he wakes after the 1st sleep cycle - I always thought this was because he was OT but I think he does this when he's UT too so that's why I've been so confused.

I don't know, I just think there has to be some sort of explanation for why Aaron has defied all reason and has not responded to any attempts to help him sleep better or to have his sleep organized in some sort of reasonable routine.

In the past several months he has slept 10.5 (on a very bad day) to 13.75 (on a super good day) with his average between 12.5-12.75 hrs.  I do think he needs a bit more than that so is it reasonable to guess that he needs 13 hrs and to therefore make a routine based on that?  So, perhaps have a goal for him to have a 1.5 hr nap and an 11.5 hr night?

So:
WU 6:30
Nap 12:15-1:45
BT 7:00

If so...how do I get there?  What do I do to get us there?  Despite his 40 min nap yesterday he only had 2 ENWs for 10 min each so he got 12 hrs last night as he woke today at 6:00 and quietly lay in his bed until I got him up at 6:35.  I decided to bump the nap by 10 min, so 11:40, as I wasn't sure if I should just leap to a later BT or slowly get there, pushing the nap by 10 min every few days.  Questions:

1) Do you agree he's LSN and likely needs 13 hrs (or do you think less/more)?
2) Do you think my "ideal" EAS sounds good? If not, do you have a different suggestion?
3) If it looks good, how do I get there?

[jcsmom]

Hey Char,
I think our LO's are so much the same. C does a 12 hour night, followed by a day of horrible naps (due to UT) then has a horrible night due to OT. If she does a 12 hour night it messes with our days. She can do 13 hour nights like A but then for days after her sleep is super wonky. If it makes you feel any better, I am in the exact same boat as you just a month behind you 

 My DS was lower sleep needs than other babies on here. I could never, ever get anwhere near as much sleep as what was suggested on here. I nearly ended up in an insane asylum aiming for 12 hour nights. At about 14 months he was doing a 6 hour A time and a 2 hour nap and a 11 hour night. After about a month on this routine he started napping longer causing shorter nights causing a long spiral of EBTs, EWU and short awful naps. In retrospect, I needed to cap his nap at 15 months or just accept he could not do 12 hour nights and 2-3 hour naps.


I agree that A is lower sleep needs. But by many standards, 13 hours of sleep at this age is pretty normal. How, after all you have done, could he not catch up, you know? I think that routine sounds manageable. If I were you I would just do it. Just go for that nap and bedtime and keep doing it over and over. I think that is where we are heading as well. We have tried 3 1 nap days in a row this week and despite EBT we get an EWU (well not an EW but 12 hours after bedtime and a 1.5 hour nap) so she maxes out on sleep bringing her whole day forward so I am in a bit of bind myself.

I want to send you a big hug and remind you that one day, this will all be over. My DS is an amazing 11 hour a night sleeper!

[Shiv52]

I agree that A is lower sleep needs. But by many standards, 13 hours of sleep at this age is pretty normal. How, after all you have done, could he not catch up, you know? I think that routine sounds manageable. If I were you I would just do it. Just go for that nap and bedtime and keep doing it over and over.

Hey Hun

I've been away in Spain for a week so just catching up. I agree with jcsmom. I think I'd just go for it.  I actually think a while ago you were pretty much where you want to be headed but we were thinking things weren't working out because his nap wasn't lengthening YK?  I think the later nap will make bedtime more reasonable and not such a stretch and you can do the odd EBT if you think he needs it. But I think you are right, a great night always means an UT next day leading to OT so I do think trying to be pretty set in your routine will help things.

I think some babies just need less day sleep to sleep well at night. My DD1 did 3 hour naps and a 11.5 night. Perfect. My DD2 was rubbish. I had to cut her nap way back at 16-18 months and we had to get rid of it altogether shortly after 2yo because it was making BT way too late and the short nights were causing havoc. It was really hard to accept she just didn't need the same sleep as DD1. 

Hugs hugs hugs xx

[Joy-filled]

Thanks ladies. I appreciate the confirmation. Today is further proof - despite waking at 6 this morning and doing the nap at 11:40 he still woke after 34 min for his nap, sat up and cried but fortunately fell back asleep for another sleep cycle - 36 min  .  I tried to rock but he wasn't tired enough.  I think it's clear that he wakes after the 1st sleep cycle both when he's UT and OT.  I think that really is the thing that made it so confusing and made me think he was OT when he was actually UT.

So I'm just going to take the plunge and do his nap later.  Do you think it makes a difference if I do the nap at 12:15 or 12:30?  I'd rather do 12:30 as I'm going to actually get out and join a mom's group (finally  ) on Tuesday mornings and I don't think I'll be able to get him home and have lunch in before 12:15.  What do you think?  12:30 set nap and 7:15 set BT?

[Shiv52]

I think that's fine Hun. You have to live too and it's important at this age for him to be getting to wee groups and seeing others. I know both mine slept better too after being out and about. They were so nosey.

[Joy-filled]

Sounds like a plan!  I'll do set BT and only do 30 min early if his nap is rubbish.  However, just to clarify is there any reason I'd ever do the nap any earlier or later - or do I just stick to it no matter what, whether he wakes early for the day or sleeps in?  And should I cap his nap at 2 hrs (I'm pretending that I might have that problem  LOL)?

[Shiv52]

For me we never did nap early, unless maybe ten minutes.  Both mine would do silly UT naps so if they slept in I had to move nap later to ensure they had their 5 hrs A time. I don't know with A though. I think I'd be tempted to just leave it pretty set give or take 15 minutes.  Because I think what will happen is if he lies on and you move the nap then he'll nap much better but that may lead to a shorter night and then OT starts to accumulate and so on.

So I think initially I'd just leave it at 12.30 and see how it works out. And a nap of 1.15-1.5 would be good going in my eyes.

[Joy-filled]

I think I agree that I should stick with it and only adjust by 15 min - if he lies in and the nap is later then the night will get shorter.  Should I cap at 2 hrs of do you think even less?

[Mama2Athena]

My 17 month old DD has had her nap set at 12:30 (by daycare) since she transitioned to 1 nap at 13 months.  This is regardless of whether she woke at 5:30 or 6:30 -however I do cringe when she has an earlier wakeup.  But since she is in daycare, her napping situation is out of my control.  Contrary to what I see here, most of the babies at DD's daycare is on 6/6.5 hour A by the time they go to 1 nap (between 12-13 months).

I think DD is either LSN or ASN as her routine is WU 6/6:30, Nap 12:30-2/2:30 (sometimes longer if tired), and BT 7:30/7:45 although she is usually asleep closer to 8 PM.

[Shiv52]

I would allow upto 2 hours initially as that will help with the longer a times. I think he'll likely give you different nap lengths based on the night and day before as I do think he's affected over a period of a few days rather than one days routine. So on that basis I would resist the urge to tweak and just keep nap and bedtime consistent.

[Joy-filled]

Well, he handled the long A time like a champ today.  WU was 6:10, nap at 12:30.  Cried out at 1 hr but woke for nap at 1:05 so a 1 hr 35 min nap.  Very grumpy after his nap, though but after lots of cuddles and distraction he eventually pulled out of it.  Took him 30 min to fall asleep for BT, though so 11.75 hr total A time today  .  So a long day, but I think he'll eventually fall into the rhythm. 

jcsmom, what was your DS' routine when he was 14 months?  When did was WU, nap time, nap length, and BT?  I'm just wondering if I need to pull back a touch for the nap since I'm aiming for a 6:30 WU.  I was going to aim for a 12:30 nap as I have the mom's group on Tuesdays but I think I'm going to do 12:15 nap everyday but 12:30 on Tuesdays.  Is that okay?

[jcsmom]

Sounds like he handled that huge A like a champ! My ds was doing 6:30-12:30-7:30 for a while til it went pear shaped at 15 months(when I should have pushed his nap later or capped it). If I were you I would keep his nap closer to 12:30/1 pm to try to avoid an EW and a long A til bed. I have a feeling he needs a big A to nap well after his good long nights. I bet his wu will move later too.

So glad you are joining a mommy group. It kept me sane with my ds and we made lifelong friends there. C and I have just joined one too so we are going to one nap too. So far so good! Big hugs Char, you have been through so much with A. But I think you are finally on the right track.

[Shiv52]

I agree with jcsmom. I think he'll overall handle longer A time before his nap after a nights sleep than a longer a time after a shortish nap YK? 

[Joy-filled]

I guess I was naively hoping/believing that he'd start proper napping now and the issue would be that he needs a decent A time to go to bed and that even with a 1.5 hr nap he'd need a long A time to go to bed for 7/7:15.  If the nap is later I feared it would push BT later since that's what happened yesterday - last night only ended up being 10.5 hrs due to a 7:30 BT, 6:15 WU with 4 crying NWs in the night.  And then he only napped 1 hr today and woke crying and is still crying 20 min later.  Definitely OT, especially since he had a very OS morning in the church nursery with kids playing all over the place.  So 11.5 hr total sleep with night and day sleep combined  . I think today is an EBT day. 

Mama2Athena what BT did you use with your DD when she was 13 months and on one nap at 12:30?  What WU and nap length did you typically get?

[jessmum46]

Just some extra thoughts - don't know if they will help.  On nursery days J naps early and short (grrr...) so EASY is roughly WU 6.30/7, nap 11.45/12 for 1h-1h15, BT 6.30ish but usually takes an hour or more to fall asleep due to OT and OS.  At home EASY is more like WU 6.30/7, nap 12.30/1 for 1.5-2h, BT 7pm and asleep usually by 7.15.  The later nap definitely helps here x