A couple of questions...

[Fiver]

If it was too big why would he still wake at 11/12 for a feed?

Because breastmilk is incredibly well and quickly absorbed, which is why BF babies need feeding (generally) more often than their FF counterparts.  Could upset after feeding be down to discomfort from wind or tiredness, for example, rather than for hunger, do you think?

[Louismummy]

Could upset after feeding be down to discomfort from wind or tiredness, for example, rather than for hunger, do you think?
[/quote]

He doesn't get upset after feeding?? ... He is just waking up in the night more frequently? I'm pretty sure it is hunger... Every 1-2 hours at the moment and he has been doing this for about 3 weeks... (Since implementing EASY)

In the daytime he has been having frequent and short feeds..... I'm not sure if this I'd the reason for the NW, others have suggested a GS but that shouldn't last for 3 weeks should it?

I have read back through the book and looked at possible reasons for the NW and I think it is hunger? I'm pretty sure it is hunger. Yesterday some suggestions from people on here was to try and settle him at night without feeding him (I was feeding every time he woke) i also wanted to increase the E time as this was very short (possibly because I was feeding him too often???) I listed NW from last night. At 1.30 and 5.15 I managed to settle him without feeding but on both of those occasions he woke just half and hour later whereas when I fed him he lasted much longer.... Which what makes me think its hunger.... And he dives on the breast like he has not been fed for days!

So my plan of action was to:
Try and decrease feeding on NW - managed to settle him back off twice last night without feeding.
Try and increase feed time and decrease feed frequency.

Today has looked like this:

6.45 up but he didn't want to feed due to earlier night feeds
A until 7.50
E - 7.50 until 8.00 (7 mins)
S - 8.12 until 8.55
A - until 9.30 (didn't want to feed right after sleep as they would be too close)
E - 9.30 until 9.36 (6 mins)
A - 9.36 until 10.30
S - 10.30 until 11.30
A - 11.30 until 12.10 (swimming lesson)
E - 12.15 until 12.25 (10 mins)
A - 12.25 until 12.45
S - 12.45 until 2.00
E - 2.07 until 2.22 (16 mins) longest ever!
A - 2.25 until 3.45
S - 3.45 until 4.32
E - 4.34 until 4.40 (6 mins)
A - 4.40 until 6.30
E - 6 oz expressed
A - 5 min story
S - 7.00

So these timing might look a little strange, he didn't want a feed when he got up (due to the night feeds) I was try to extend the amount of time between feeds and we had a swimming lesson which meant he went a longer period without E.

We've def had a lot less feeds today with a couple for a much longer period, so that is a step in the right direction! Lets see how he is tonight.

[Fiver]

He doesn't get upset after feeding??

Sorry, there seems to be some confusion, I was talking about the feeds where you said:

I did start off with smaller bottles which are 5oz (I think) as soon as he finished he cried for more??

As for this

on both of those occasions he woke just half and hour later whereas when I fed him he lasted much longer.

I would tend to agree.

Where have you got to in terms of how spaced BFs are during the course of the day, because all these NFs could be his way of either trying to make up for milk he's not getting during the day or to try to up your milk supply.

[Louismummy]

The penny has dropped..... I think I know what's up..... Why has this taken me so long to figure out?

When I took his expressed bottle out of the fridge I noticed the foremilk and hindmilk had separated, there seemed to be loads more foremilk to hindmilk. I estimate 85:15 so I got after I put him to sleep and finished my earlier post I got on google and we have quite a few of the symptoms:
Baby always hungry
Short feeding times
Fast weight gain
Feeding to often
Green poops
Lots of gas
Any breast feeding experts think this is the case? I might try and speak with someone at LLLI tomorrow.
 
This may be the reason for the NW for the extra feeds?

[Fiver]

You might want to have a look at this about the change from foremilk to hindmilk - http://thefunnyshapedwoman.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/hindmilk#

As it states in the article, what you are seeing isn't foremilk and hindmilk separated, just a layer of fat that has formed on top.  Foremilk contains fat too.
When did you express that bottle of milk?  If it was first thing in the morning, it is likely that there would be a larger quantity of less fatty milk simply because milk is more plentiful first thing (generally) and more fatty in the evening.  When you pump, are you continuing to pump after milk has stopped dripping or only after it's stopped "spraying"?

If you're having some of those issues, you could try some Breast compression to encourage some of the fat molecules out and LO to stay interested at the breast a bit longer.

[Louismummy]

I pumped it last thing at night.... The milk was almost clear.

It seems to spray for alot of the time I'm pumping.

Thank you I'll have a read of the blog.

X

[Fiver]

Do you get any spluttering with it as well?

[Louismummy]

A little but its mainly spraying.... It comes out pretty fast too, it only normally takes 10/15 minutes to express 7/8 oz.  I'm just about to pump now so I'll look closer.

 

[Fiver]

I was more thinking about whether your LO splutters at the breast.  It sounds like you might have a bit of a fast letdown and/or a bit of an oversupply.  More here - Oversupply and Overactive (Forceful) Let-Down

Sometimes then you do end up with a foremilk/hindmilk imbalance because there's so much milk there that LO isn't able to feed for long enough to get the optimal amount of fat and can sometimes end up feeding more frequently despite getting loads of milk at each feed, so it can sometimes seem like there's a problem with supply where one doesn't exist.

[*Ali*]

I think Amanda meant is your LO spluttering to cope with the flow or did I misunderstand that Amanda?

As Amanda mentioned, it is completely normal for there to be a thin fatty layer on the top of stored milk. There is a good picture here http://kellymom.com/bf/pumpingmoms/pumping/what-to-expect-when-pumping/ Fast milk flow doesn't help with dislodging the fatty molecules so taking measures suggested in the Overactive letdown FAQ Amanda posted earlier in this thread will also help.

I was also wondering how you are getting your LO to sleep? Is he going independently yet (in the cot awake and putting himself to sleep alone) or are you there doing something like shh pat or rocking to get him down?

It may just be coincidence that your LO started waking more often at night and not related to the routine changes specifically. Both my boys slept really well at night (7/8pm-5/6am) from about 6-8wo until some point between 3 to 4mo when they started waking a lot more often. This is really common for babies because in the early weeks their sleep is more continuous and they spend a lot of time in deep sleep. Some time between 3-4mo a baby starts sleeping more in 45 min cycles and spend much more time cycling between light and deep sleep and therefore wake more often. Some babies will settle themselves back into the next sleep cycle without fully waking. Other babies will wake because they are hungry, they are looking for a prop like a dummy, mummy's breast or rocking etc. or if they are in discomfort from wind or such. Many other reasons too of course.

Posted with Amanda...

[Louismummy]

Oh, I see! Sorry 

He sometimes splutters, but has been better when i manage to nurse on one side. We went along to our breast feeding support group who advised us to do this, they said I had an over active letdown. It doesn't spray in his face so much now so I presumed it had stopped..... Or he is controlling the flow better. 
We're experiencing:
Fast weight gain.
Short feeds between 5/8 minutes is normal.
Fussing. Off and on the breast
Take the 1st breast for a few minutes then refuse it but will happily accept the other.
Repeated mastitis.
Always hungry.
Waking every 1/2 hours at night.
Green poo
Sometimes can smell funny (which I understand can be due to lactose fermenting in the gut??)

In the main he does put himself to sleep independently. (In the daytime we use a dummy) at night I can literally plonk him in the cot and he will put himself to sleep. Same with the NW once he has fed, I just plonk him down and he is off. He does it himself in the daytime with the help of a dummy, I often wait with him until he is asleep and pull his dummy out.

I just read the symptoms and thought it sounded a lot like us..... And thought it also tied in with the NW?

Well I think we have done better today with feeding less frequently so I'll see how we get on tonight.

Thanks again for all your help x

[Fiver]

It does sound a bit like he's maybe started to control the flow a bit better, but is also now used to the speed of flow so that when it slows between letdowns he's either getting annoying that there's not so much coming so quickly or he's got wind in him that he wants to dislodge, hence the fussing and wanting to swap sides.  Either taking him off and giving him a chance to burp might be a plan, or trying some laid back feeding in order to use gravity to slow the flow a bit for him might help, and then putting him back onto the same breast.  I posted the breast compression link before, so you might like to try that if he's fussing and you're satisfied that he's not windy.

The mastitis would suggest that there are some issues with milk stasis within the breast, which could also be down to an oversupply alongside the overactive letdown.  Again, there is a lot of information about dealing with this within the oversupply/overactive letdown FAQ I posted before.

Can you go back to the BF support group you attended and get some IRL advice from them?  I always feel that as much as someone trying to help out online is great, there's no match to a face to face consultation.

[Louismummy]

Thanks again for all the advice - I'll have a read through the info today.

I went along to breast feeding support today and I'm not really sure it helped any? She isn't a fan of routines and said him wanting to switch isn't a issue and to just go with it, most babies go through NW and he'll grow out of it soon.

I've left a message from someone at LLLI so hopefully they'll call. They have a group once a month so I'll go to their next session.

In terms of the EASY routine continue with what I'm doing:
Decreasing the night time feeds by trying to settle without feeding
Increasing the time between feeds (we did manage a couple of hours between some feeds yesterday)

Thanks again for all your help x x

[Fiver]

Just take the spacing of daytime feeds really gradually.  If it's 2 hours, great.  See if he can manage 2 hours and 5 minutes the next day.

The great thing with BW is it's about following your LO's cues for hunger rather than trying to be on a rigid schedule dictated by the clock.