One step forward..two steps back and desperate to get some sleep

[MrsBakesALot]

Two days ago this post would have been me in crisis but having googled my problem I came across this forum...which reminded me to re-read my "Secrets of" book. I had this for my first little boy but he was text book, barely cried and slept through from 6 weeks, so I didn't really pay it much attention to it. So I have done my homework

Son number two was born at 38 weeks and a healthy 4kg, we co slept for the first 6 weeks and then moved him into the bassinet next to our bed, coming into the bed for feeds. He soon out grew this and moved into the cot at the bottom of our bed at about 15 weeks which is where he has stayed. At 25 weeks (nearly 6 months) we have moved his bed in with his brother to give ourselves a better nights sleep and also son #1 sleeps through everything so its not an issue when he wakes in their room.  I should add that we live in a little two bedroom flat in Wimbledon, London (yes, near where the tennis is) and so space is a premium for us and there is little escape.

Initially the night waking was to be expected but they have just continued and become more frequent and prolonged to the point where out of complete desperation and exhaustion I went to my doctor and she put me on anti depressants and I have been taking them for about 3 weeks.  I could go into detail but put it this way, one night it was every 90 minutes followed by a night waking at 10pm for 30 minutes, 1 am for 2 hours and then 5 am for two hours. Admittedly, up to this point, my best and go to solution has always been to put him on the breast and then to sneak him onto the dummy to put him down...this invariably fails and he thrashes about and scratches his face and pushes your hand with the dummy away and really just goes into a rage which takes us back to square 1. So it isn't just the waking...its the screaming/crying. It goes straight through me and makes daily life with son #1 (who is 2 yrs) very difficult, and there are times where I have done everything and the screaming continues so I just have to put him in the cot and shut myself in the bathroom for 5 minutes.  I have made the link that lots of his crying is "please pick me up now" and sometimes if I am dealing with toddler (potty or nappy or feeding) I don't get to him straight away which leads him to go into a full out screaming rage - so help with coping with this would be great.

So that's where I was. I hated how I felt towards him and that nothing I did seems to be right.

So, two days ago I read my book and had a revelation...my second son is a Spirited baby!  This has helped me to understand that 1 - he needs to be swaddled, something which I tried as a newborn but thought because of his wiggling he didn't like it...so abandoned it. My first swaddle & cuddle to put down for a nap worked a treat. With his arms tucked in he meekly accepted his dummy and started to drift off and I put him down, and he didn't start squealing, he slept FOR TWO HOURS!  So from that point I decided to write down everything we were doing, post it up here and then ask to help to fine tune our multiple problems of naps, crying and NW...mostly because its day 3 of trying these methods and its almost like he has worked it out and is wanting to fight me on it again. He is a very determined little guy!  Its also great that he is occasionally settling himself as at 9.2kg he is now a BIG boy!

I know I am to blame for some of his dependency on the breast, but if the last 2 nights have taught me anything is that it doesn't have to be my 1st port of call as he is having plenty of milk and 2 meals during the day...when he does BF it is generally for about 10 minutes. I think I need to maybe regulate the BF times a bit more?

Two nights ago was a good one in as much as I slept from 1 till 5...for me, this was much better than being up at 1 for however long and then up again at 3 or 4. But last night was horrendous - he was down at 6.45 on his own, but up at 11.45pm until 2am and then awake again at 4.45am until 6am when he finally was calm enough to self settle.  It was a horrid night with so much screaming and resisiting of the swaddle...he would shake he head to refuse the dummy too. When out of the swaddle he would claw at me and generally not help things. Son #1 also woke up and decided to get into our bed with Daddy while I shhed baby.

Sorry for such a long post but I thought that if I didn't make a note of what was going on then I wouldn't be able to see where to make changes myself. I guess the best description of our time is EAEAS with the occasional Y. All help and suggestions would be greatfully received as I really want to get my "happy side" back. Thank you all.

Olivia.x

[MrsBakesALot]

Just wanted to add that we seem to be doing much better during the day in terms of 2 to 2.5 hours awake and then 1.5 to 2 hours nap. Yesterday my little guy seemed to be getting the hang of it and even went to sleep independently bang on schedule which is what made last nights wake up and screamings so much more disappointing but I am doing my best to be consistent and can only hope that he will get the hang of it.

[jessmum46]

Hi there,

Great that you've found us again . I hope we can help and (((hugs))) on the PPD and sleep deprivation.  There is a specific board here for PPD where you might find some support for yourself if you want it? Post Partum Depression. And I will do my best to help with LOs sleep here.

I'm glad you've had some success with the swaddle, but just wanted to check is he able to roll yet?  Really if he is rolling the swaddle needs to be stopped for safety reasons so just wanted you to be aware of that. 

You say you need to regulate bf times a little more.  What's a typical day's feeding like at the moment?  Do you feed on demand (and if so how often) or do you stick to particular times?

Routine wise 2-2.5h A time is on the short side for 6 months, could you post what the day actually looks like in EAS format for us? 

Does he feed to sleep at night time currently?  It does sound like he has a prop of some sort (either breast or dummy) which can't be helping his NWs.  Do you want to keep the dummy for now?  I ask because it just affects how you might go about sleep training as for example you can't use PUPD with a dummy unless LO can replug it himself.  What have you been doing to settle him at NWs the last couple of nights?

[MrsBakesALot]

Hi Jess,

Thank you so much for your reply and I will do my best to reply to your questions

I'm glad you've had some success with the swaddle, but just wanted to check is he able to roll yet?  Really if he is rolling the swaddle needs to be stopped for safety reasons so just wanted you to be aware of that. 

Yes he can roll, and quite competeantly and actually today he has gone for both his naps and tonights sleep without the swaddle as after last night where he REALLY struggled against it I didn't want to try it again. So we are just in his sleeping bag now.

You say you need to regulate bf times a little more.  What's a typical day's feeding like at the moment?  Do you feed on demand (and if so how often) or do you stick to particular times?

I did start by on demand but as we have introduced meals we I have been able to regulate feeds a bit more, At the moment he has 3 main feeds of the breast and 1 formula at the start of our EAS for about 10 to 15 minutes and then depending on his mood (and how tired he is) he may have a 5 minute quencher either halfway through A or before a nap but not generally to fall asleep.  I do try and stick to particular times, that is BF on waking up in the morning or from naps which is roughly the same time each day at the moment.

Routine wise 2-2.5h A time is on the short side for 6 months, could you post what the day actually looks like in EAS format for us? 

Ok our past two days looks like this...

E - 0740 Wake up and BF and then Porridge at about 8am.  This is then followed by playing, sometimes with his brother and sometimes I take him to play on his own.
A
S - 1050 Nap w/dummy and sleepy bear and swaddled
E - 1245 Wake up and BF
A
S - 1500 Nap w/dummy and sleepy bear and swaddled
E - 1615 Wake up and BF
A
E - 1730 Dinner
A-  1800 Bath and wind down
E - 1830 8oz forumla followed by..
S - 1840 cuddles and into bed. He was asleep by the 3rd 5 minute check w/dummy and sleepy bear and swaddled
2345 NW   I then BF about an hour in to this and he went back to sleep at 0145

0445 Wake up - settling attempted with swaddle but gave up as he fought taking it and fought taking his dummy. He went into an extreme scream session where by there was very little I could do to help calm him. I generally have to hold him upright facing me and patting back saying "i'm here, it's ok" and then once he's calm I attempted a put down. I put him down with sleepy bear and dummy awake at 0550 and he was asleep by 6am

E - 0830 Wake up and BF followed by Porridge at 9am
A
S - 1030 Nap w/dummy and sleepy time bear
E - 1230 Wake up and BF (I try and time my toddlers nap for this time when he is awake so they have each had a turn with 1 to 1 mummy time in the day)
A
S - 1445 Sleep
E - 1600 Wake up and BF at about 1615
A
E - 1715 Dinner
A - 1740 Bath
E - 1810 8oz Formula and wind down
S - 1830 put to bed with dummy and no swaddle and sleepy bear lullabies, asleep at 2nd 5 minute check (1840)

Does he feed to sleep at night time currently?  It does sound like he has a prop of some sort (either breast or dummy) which can't be helping his NWs.  Do you want to keep the dummy for now?  I ask because it just affects how you might go about sleep training as for example you can't use PUPD with a dummy unless LO can replug it himself.  What have you been doing to settle him at NWs the last couple of nights? 

He doesnt feed to sleep  as a rule(although he does occasionally), we do want to keep the dummy at the moment as we do a fair amount of air travel and it really helps his little ears (husband is from SA and we fly there twice a year)  The last couple of nights I had been re-swaddling him, then picking up to calm him, giving him back his dummy and then putting down - repeating if he then got ancy. I would say that prior to the past week, my go to would be to feed him which is where his sucking prop probably comes from. I mean last night when he was out of his swaddle at the 2nd wake up and in a rage he was constantly clawing at me and twisting round trying to get at the boob even though I knew he couldnt possibly be hungry as he had fed a few hours before.  He does like to sleep with his hands above his head its just when he is awake and crying he thrashes about and hurts himself and gets himself more upset which is where the swaddling helped but I think he sleeps more comfortably/relaxed without it

I just don't know...part of it could be teeth as he does try and chomp on everything but bar teething granules (which seem to have stopped having an effect) there isn't much to do. 

I am open to any and all suggestions.

[MrsBakesALot]

Morning!

Well last night we had 3 NW but surprisingly I am ok about it as it wasnt accompanied by lots of screaming and was very manageable and calm..i think mostly because I could identify a route cause to each waking. One thing I am very happy with is that we didnt BF at all last night during the NW..something of an achievement that a)he didnt ask for it and b)he didnt get so fraught that I had to resort to using the boob to quiet him

The first WU was 9.45 and as soon as I picked him up he burped, calmed down and was half way asleep again by the time I put him down. The secound WU was at 00.50 until 02.08 there were some initial crys as he was very very wet and had leaked but once that was sorted most of it was spent with LO lying in his cot listening to white noise and doing a rather rythmic thumping of his legs (ie: lying on his back and raisng both legs and dropping them with a bump), I am not sure if he wanted to play but was just awake. The final WU was at 4am when our upstairs neighbour clomped her way up the stairs and into her flat slamming doors and walking in her heels to her room across wooden floors which disturbed both boys, this was quickly settled though.  He finally woke up this morning at 6.45, we BF and he dozed with me until about 7.30 when his older brother crashed into the room.

Ummm, things I have been thinking about
    - his dummy, while we use it for soothing when he is crying and for getting to sleep, he doesnt need it to stay asleep as he tends to spit it out once he gets into a deeper sleep.
    - when he is awake at night and I have picked him up to calm him, (a brief rock) he insists on being able to touch my face...he does this lots if I am holding him when he is awake to, even if facing outwards...one hand will be reaching up to touch my face/neck.

[jessmum46]

Sorry I missed your reply to this - how are things going now?

Going through your previous post, I'm glad you've decided not to swaddle since he's rolling . And well done too on spreading out those feeds. 

Routine wise the first day you posted started out pretty good with an age-appropriate (or maybe slightly high) A time of just over 3h.  He did a great nap on that!  But then his second A was quite short and he did a classic UT length nap of 1h15.  Overall his day was quite short, about 11h despite one excellent and one good nap, so some of the NWs (particularly the long one) may have been due to UT. 

The second day you posted his A times were really short, just 2h, 2h15 and 2h40.  I would expect those to cause a few UT NWs and that's what it sounds like you ended up with.  Wanting to play in the middle of the night is a classic sign.  And then ends up OT by morning because of the NWs. 

I think it would help if you could try for some consistency in your A times.  It's so hard to work out what's happening with som much variability.  So pick a time that's an average for your first A but also age appropriate, around 2h45-3h and then stick to that first A time.  If you get a good nap, try around the same A time for the second A.  And stick to those times for a few days before making any more changes.

With the dummy you should be able to teach him to replug it himself in the next month or two.  Until then it sounds like it is a prop if he needs it to go to sleep, but if you're ok with that for now that's fine.  The face touching sounds like a comfort thing

[MrsBakesALot]

Thank you for the suggestions Katherine and I completely agree, that first day was miraculous with the nap and we have gone a bit off course with the awake times as I guess I haven't been trying to apply a set routine until now I wasn't sure of appropriate lenght so your direction will really help (hopefully).  If I am honest his naps have been ridiculously short as we have had days that have been out of the ordinary in terms of things we have been doing so the little guy is OT Hoping to get back on track over the next few days as I know this is going to take some working out to get right and fit in round the toddler.

I think we have also hit the teething (drooling, chewing on hands) & 6 month development stage as he is deperately trying to crawl but not getting where he wants yet which I know can all knock on to sleep.

Will keep you posted as to how we get on these next few days.x

[draxela]

Hi Olivia, just to let you know I'm following along! Sounds like our LOs are in a very similar place right now!

[jessmum46]

Just checking in to see how you are x

[MrsBakesALot]

Ugh - we were doing so well at the weekend with only 1 wake up on Sunday night but yesterday Daniel went back to only having two 45 minute naps despite the following routine E - A (3 hours) - S (45 mins) E - A (2 hours) - S (45 mins) and then awake for 5 hours so he was OT at BT!!

He did really well initally last night having gone down at 7pm, woke up briefly at 00.30 but I could settle him with his dummy and a calming cuddle but then he woke up at 0345 this morning and would not settle and so I decided to start EASY then as he refused to go back to sleep... so we BF around about 4am and again at about 5.45, sat up in the dark in the lounge, at 0630 he ate his porridege and was clearly so very very tired, did a #2 in his nappy so I changed him and put him down in his cot at 7am and he fell asleep and is still asleep! I plan to wake him up at 10am as we need to get on with our day but probably should have done it sooner but have been so tired myself as the toddler also woke at 5.30 and I had to battle to get him to stay in his bed till 6.30.

So we are still struggling 

I should add that as well as starting to sit unsupported more he is now pushing backwards everywhere (his version of crawling) and doing a lot of rocking on his hands and knees...i have no doubt it wont be long before his is rather mobile. He is now on 3 meals a day, porridge in the mornings, fruit & veggies at lunch and then chicken or fish and veggies at dinner. Thing is, I am noticing that he seems to still want to BF (just for a few minutes) shortly after eating, so I am guessing he's thirsty? Not sure, going to try and introduce a bit of water with meals to see if he will sip it.

[MrsBakesALot]

Hi Olivia, just to let you know I'm following along! Sounds like our LOs are in a very similar place right now!

Morning - hope you had a better night than I did! How are your LOs doing?

[draxela]

We're doing better in the day time now (no more 30 min naps!) but she's still waking 3-4 times in the night (twice for a feed). I've noticed she seems hungry all the time so I'm thinking it's the 6 mth GS.

Meanwhile, my poor little toddler who has had chronic constipation since she was 6 months old is suffering again

[MrsBakesALot]

ARRRRGGGGHHHH 

Having a rubbish afternoon - Daniel has just had a 45 minute screaming session...he sounded so hoarse by the end of it. I know it was because he was OT and just got himself into a rage and we were out at the time (at a play group for toddler) so when he woke up from his afternoon nap after 30 minutes I couldnt resettle.

He did wake up just before 10am and then was awake till 1 (lunch was at 12) at which point he was in his pram as we were en route to my toddlers afternoon playgroup (that also has a baby corner in case he was awake) but unfortunately he woke up at 1.30...admittedly he was fairly happy until about 3 which was when we left....thank heavens as I do just want to hide in a corner when he gets to screaming.  I did try and get him back down for a nap once we were home but that was when his rage peaked and he was not entertaining that idea at all - not even looking at the fish tank worked (my usual fail safe - he just zones out and falls asleep watching the fish)

He is currently reverse crawling around the living room having got frustrated with the bouncer chair. I feel so rubbish that he hasnt slept as i know he is going to be OT by the time we get to BT

At least tomorrow is another day and we can try again.

Edit...scratch that idea about not having another nap, 20 minutes after posting he had another quick screaming session (very OT) and fell asleep...i feel so bad for him that I will let him sleep half an hour or so and then get him up for dinner, bath, bottle etc...its so hard to know what to do some times

[jessmum46]

Ugh, I hate those kind of days - (((hugs))).  Remember tomorrow is a new day!

[draxela]

Big hugs! Those days are the worst! You feel like you're trying to do the best for toddler by taking them out for new/enriching activities instead of keeping them cooped up in the house while you ST the baby. Only problem is that it stuffs the baby around and when you have a Spirited Screamer that often seems like it wasn't worth it. It's such a hard balance isn't it?? Some days I just grit my teeth and know that I'll have to deal with Ada screaming because I feel like it's more important that Neko can get out of the house and see her friends or learn some stuff.

Don't feel bad about the cat nap before dinner and BT. I find with Ada that on rubbish days those mini cat naps at the end of the day ensure that BT is free of screaming.

Meanwhile, your LO sounds like he's going through that 'almost crawling' frustration stage, where it can reeeeally affect their sleep. Hopefully once he gets mobile he'll start sleeping better at night.

Big hugs again! Hope you're doing okay.