Difficulty with EASY for 5 months old

[Iryna_B]

Hi,
My DD is almost 5 months old. I've been trying to follow principles of the EASY routine, but mostly in regards to correct A time. Since she is a cat napper, it's hard to follow the routine precisely. I taught her to sleep independently until recently when she started to refuse to sleep in her crib. I happened couple of day ago. Usually she would have 1 hr 45 min of A time, I would do very quite time before nap and then 3-5 min before nap I would put her in the crib and she'll fall asleep. Most of the time it was going good. But couple of days ago she started to refuse being in a crib, every time I put her there, she starts to cry vigorously. At first I thought that maybe it is a time to increase her A time, so today I increased it to 2 hrs. But she still won't sleep. Although she was definitely tired: yawned and rubbed her eyes. She ended up falling asleep on our bed, without breastfeeding, just with me lying by her side. And it was couple of times like that. I don't know what is reason, why she started to hate her crib.
Her routine yesterday looked like this:

A -7.50 (1.40) -  was put to sleep easily
E - 8.50 (4 min)
S - 9.30 (40 min)

A - 10.10 (2.20)
E - 11.20 (4 min)
S - 12.28 (30 min)

A - 13.00 (1.55)
E - 13.46 (6 min)
S - 14.55 (40 min)

A - 15.35 (2.55) -  refused to take another nap
E - 16.00 (4 min)
E- 17.35 (3 min)
E - 18.30 (10 min) - fall asleep on my breast eventually
S - 18.30

Before that day, she would have approximately 1.45 of A time. Today morning I also struggled to put her to bed, A time was 2.25.
She usually wakes up 3 times a night including DF. I know that at this age she should go 4 hrs between feeds, but I feel like she is hungry earlier.
What can I do to make her sleep in her crib? What should i do with our A time? Any suggestions are welcomed.

[Ima shel Alon]

Hi there!

It sounds to me like your LO is quite UT, which will explain the fighting going down, the short naps and the NW.
If your A time was 1:45h then I wouldn't jump so high to 2:25h, I would increase A time gradually, by 10-15min every 3-4 days. You stop with the A increasing when naps are better (no fighting anymore going down and longer) or when you reach around 2.5h A time (Average A times- BOOKMARK ME! ).
You need to prepare yourself that when you are increasing A times it's going to look like she is resisting it, that's why you'd need to stick with it long enough for her to get used to it (the 3-4 days) and she will also probably give you OT naps, but that's ok as well, it's not going to be much different than what's happening now.
If you get a short fist nap then you can offer a bit shorter A time before the next nap so she doesn't get very OT.
What do you think?

[Iryna_B]

Hi! Thank you for your reply!
I didn't think that she could UT, probably. It is just hard to tell, because she starts to show sleepy signs much earlier, at about 1 hr 30 min. When I try to put her to the crib, she would cry and resist. So, it's just unclear to me at what point should i do this and whether I should look for the sleepy signs or look at the time. I've just put her for an afternoon nap and I aimed for 1.55 A time, worn her in a sling before nap, so everything was quite. But when I put her down into the crib she started crying and looked like she is not ready. So after many efforts, after she calmed down in my hands, I finally put her in a crib and she fall asleep. And that gave us 2.20 of A time. In the morning it was 2.05. It's hard to determine what time works best.
I will try to experiment with times. I hope I'll figure it out in a couple of days.
And she's always been a catnapper. Just recently, about a week or 2 ago she took longer naps couple of times, i was really surprised, because she sleeps 30-40 min regardless of A time. I consider it developmental and just waiting for naps to get better. Sometimes I prolong those naps by going in to her room and when she wakes up and I hold her and walk around the room. Maybe I shouldn't do this, as she cannot learn how to go back to sleep by herself?

Usually after short naps, it is really hard to make shorter A time, I had success with it only couple of times, because she would resist.

[Ima shel Alon]

whether I should look for the sleepy signs or look at the time.

When tweaking A times you rather look at the clock than sleepy cues. Once you get her A times right then you start following cues again because you know which sleepy cues are real sleepy cues and which are from boredom.
When she start showing sleepy cues after 1.5h I would try and take her to a different room, maybe take her for a walk around the house, something different than what she was doing before.

So after many efforts, after she calmed down in my hands, I finally put her in a crib and she fall asleep. And that gave us 2.20 of A time. In the morning it was 2.05. It's hard to determine what time works best.

That's why we are starting with a specific A time and going up from there. After 4 days of the exact same A time you could say if it's working for you or she still needs more.
It's really hard for me to say anything about the A times you mentioned because I need to see a whole day - when was WU, how was the night before, how long was the A time and what nap followed it.

Maybe I shouldn't do this, as she cannot learn how to go back to sleep by herself?

I think in the long run this can defo become a prop, so I wouldn't start it IIWY, unless you want to keep on doing it for a long time. You can try and hold her in her bed just before she usually wakes, that helps sometimes (more about it here: How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods))

Usually after short naps, it is really hard to make shorter A time, I had success with it only couple of times, because she would resist.

And what happens after a full A time? She doesn't resist?

[Iryna_B]

Hi there!
So, I've been trying to determine what A time works best for us right now. We're already 5 months old and A time is about 2 hr- 2.10. It's hard to tell exactly, because today after 2 hrs. of A time she gave me only 0.35 min of nap, which is considered OT. Then, again she had 2 hrs of A time and had 1 hr 10 min nap. Could be longer, but construction workers outside woke her up. So, it's hard to tell if 2 hrs is good for her. Will keep observing.

You are right, I will try not to extend her naps the way I used to do it, I'm also afraid it will become a prop. But today's nap of 1 hr and 10 min gives me hope that we're getting closer to normal nap length)))

Usually when I try to put her down earlier after shirt nap, it's hard for me to determine at which point should I do that. When I see sleepy signs and immediately try o put her in a crib, most of the time she resists and takes many efforts until she falls asleep. So, it's easier for me to look at exact time. She still resists after full A time though. Perhaps I will try again to put her down earlier.

My another question is early waking. I don't know if she is early bird or something is wrong with routine, but she usually wakes up at 6 -6.30. Sometimes it could be earlier. And this is regardless our bedtime, which is usually ranges from 6.30-7.30. I've read the EW could be due to early first nap, but of course it will be early, when she woke up at 6. Do you think we could change something in our routine? For the last 2 days it is pretty similar and looked like this:

E 6.00 - 10 min
A 6.00 (2.11)
E 7.33 - 3 min
S 8.10 (0.45)

A 8.55 (2 hrs)
E 10.42 (6 min)
S 10.55 (0.35)

A 11.30 (2 hrs)
E 12.41 (7 min)
A 13.30 (1.10)

A 14.40 (2.20)
E 15.58 (6 min)
S 17.00 (0.25)

A 17.25 (2 hrs)
E 17.25 (5 min)
A 19.15 (7 min)
S 19.25

[Ima shel Alon]

She is still on 4 naps? She should be on 4 naps by now, so I would really try and push A times a bit more. When she will be around 6m old she would be dropping to two naps, so imagine if you'll be then on 4 naps...

How is she waking from the morning nap? I think that if she wakes happy and chatty and not crabby then the 35min would be Ut and not OT. If she is unhappy then I would stick with the A time you are offering now, but will increase during the rest of the day.

If she wakes up at 6 in the morning I would try and keep BT to 19, not later than that. If she goes to bed at 19 and wakes up at 6 then it doesn't consider an EW.

[Iryna_B]

Mostly she has 4 naps, sometimes 3. How can I make it 3 naps consistently if she mostly sleeps 40 min? I saw that A time for 5 months old should be around 2-2.5 hrs. Do you think I should push our A time to 2.30 instead of 2.10 and see what happens? I usually try to put her down when I see sleepy signs but she always resists and usually cries before she actually fall asleep, so A time varies.
Usually she wakes up form first nap chatty. I mean, the first thing I hear is crying, because I'm in the other room, but then she looks happy most of the time. It is such a confusion with this A time. 

And today second day in a row she woke at 5.30 although BT time was 19.35 and 19.05 respectively. Is this considered normal WU? I don't understand, it seems too early.

And also with A times, does it have to be the same all day long? Because for us sometimes it is 2.10 or 2.15 or 2.20. It's difficult to stick to exactly same time.

[Ima shel Alon]

I saw that A time for 5 months old should be around 2-2.5 hrs. Do you think I should push our A time to 2.30 instead of 2.10 and see what happens? I usually try to put her down when I see sleepy signs but she always resists and usually cries before she actually fall asleep, so A time varies.

When you are tweaking A times you don't really look at sleepy cues for that time, but more at the clock, that way A times don't vary so much and you have a better chance figuring out what is her appropriate A time.
If you jump straight to 2.5h A time and don't increase it gradually then you are risking having her very OT and having more problems than you do now. I would offer 2:10h A time for about 4 days consistently and if there is no change then I would increase to 2:20h A time.
The only way you can make it to 3 naps a day is if her A times are longer, which they should be and hope for longer naps. 4 naps a day at her age is just too much.

And also with A times, does it have to be the same all day long? Because for us sometimes it is 2.10 or 2.15 or 2.20. It's difficult to stick to exactly same time.

No, it doesn't have to be the same throughout the day. Some babies like their first A time shorter than the rest of the day, some like it longer and some like it the same. Same goes to the last A time before BT. It's ok that it varies, but like I said before, in a period of tweaking A times it's easier to watch the clock than relying on sleepy cues. Obviously relying just on sleepy cues doesn't work at the moment, or she'd nap longer, right?

If she goes to bed at 19-19:30 and wakes up at 5:30 then it's an EW and not enough night sleep for her. Anything under 11h a night (for most babies) is not enough.
I do think that the EW is connected to her not having enough A time during the day and having not long enough naps. You can read about it more here: 10 reasons (other than hunger) a baby can wake at night I believe that when her routine is a bit better then the EW will disappear again.

[Iryna_B]

Hi Ima shel Alon,

So, for the last week I've been trying to determine what A time works best for my daughter. Seems like it is 2.10 and first nap of the day become longer. It is usually 1.30, she rarely sleeps more than that, only when I help her to prolong a short nap.
But it is only first nap, which got better, all the other naps are still anywhere between 35 to 45 min. I try to be consistent with A time, although when she had short nap, i try to make next A time shorter and it still doesn't help much.
With all that said, i have no idea how can i make only 3 naps a day right now especially with EW. Because normally she finishes her 3rd nap anywhere between 2 or 3 pm. And it is too far to BT. I cannot put her down at 5 for a night sleep. Sometimes she takes 3 longer naps, but that's only when I help her to make them longer.
Seems like now 2.10 works for her and most of the time she goes to sleep easily with this time. What do you think about our situation? Should we still try for more A time?
She still has 2 feeds at night after DF. Is this normal for 5 months old? Aside of that she wakes up, I even don't why, I just take her to my bed and she goes back to sleep immediately. And even on my bed she can wake up, i hold her for 1 or 2 min and she goes back to sleep again. Any suggestions what to do with these NW?
Thank you very much for your time and help!

[Ima shel Alon]

Sweety, there is really no other solution for you but to stretch A times gradually and have her on an age appropriate A times. That will solve (or at least ease) the NW, the EW and will also make it possible for you to put her on 3 naps. She is one month away from being on 2 naps, what are you going to do then? You just gotta help her be on higher A times.
I would keep on gradually increasing A times IIWY.

[Iryna_B]

I will do my best to gradually increase her A times. I've already started to do that and the naps are so short after new A time. I also tried wake to sleep yesterday to extend her nap, but it didn't work. I came in at 32 min and slightly stroked her nose and it looked like she went into light sleep phase again. But after 5 min or so she woke up. I wonder if someone even had success with it? And what should I do with NW when she is not hungry and wakes up and crying? Pu\pd?

[Ima shel Alon]

Sorry for the late reply, I was away.

Yes, at her age I would use PU/PD to settle NW that are not hunger or discomfort related (unless she has Reflux). UT NW are very very hard to settle because baby is simply not tired enough to go back to sleep.

W2S takes a while to work. I think the recommendation is to do it for a week and then hold back and see if it worked.

How were the last few days?

[Iryna_B]

The last few day we managed to make 3 naps. I keep on increasing A time and I try to push her BT to 7-8. And for the last 9 days she didn't have EW. Hopefully it will stay like that.
She still wakes at night, but mostly because she likes to practice her rolling skills. And she won't go back to sleep until I give her some tummy time. After that, satisfied, she sucks her thumb and goes back to sleep. I don't know if this NW related to her not having enough A time.

Now about naps. You were right, that my attempt to help her extend her nap could become a prop. I think it has already become a prop. Because every time she wakes up from first 40 min nap cycle she cries with eyes shot. And when I come in, i have to do pu/pd one or two times and she goes back to sleep. But she doesn't want to go to another sleep cycle without my help. Today she only had one long nap, all the remaining naps where short and pu/pd didn't help, because she was wide awake and didn't want to go back to sleep.
I don't know now how to make her sleep long nap without my help. Do you have any suggestions?

[Ima shel Alon]

I don't know if this NW related to her not having enough A time.

Developmental milestones often disrupt sleep. You can try and give her as much time during the day to practice and have tummy time, that might help with the NW.

I think that it will get easier with naps. When A times will be right she night not need your help anymore going through sleep cycles and will just sleep through. I think if you continue tweaking A times and at the same time you do PU/PD then you are on the right track.

[Iryna_B]

So, just to make sure I understand it right. We're almost 6 months old and A time for this period is 2.30-3 hours. So, i have to increase A time gradually all the time throughout the whole month? And when do babies usually start to take 2 naps? I feel like we're not ready yet.

[Ima shel Alon]

Every baby is different, so some will need 2.5h A time at this age and some will need 3h and more (DS needed way more than 3h at this age). The length of naps, the way he wakes up from them and NW give us signs if we increased enough A time or not. As long as naps are 45min-1:20h long and baby wakes kinda happy from them then A time is not enough and he is UT. When there are long NW that are chatty, no signs or pain or hunger, then it usually indicates as well UT.
Most babies go through the 3-2 transition at around 5-6m: All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months.

[Iryna_B]

Thank you for clarification! I see that we are not ready for 3-2 transition, my daughter hardly can stay 2 hr 30 min, after that she'll give my an OT nap, even less then 30 min.
However I have another question. I kind of confused now and don't where I'm going with increasing A time. So, I was trying to increase A time gradually. Last week I tried 2.20, now I'm trying 2.25. But this time is different throughout the day. Because once she wakes up from short nap, I try to make shorter A time, less then 2.25. Then again she had short nap and I make shorter A time again. It's hard to stick to 2.25, naps are still short.
And also in the morning she needs shorter A time, she can hardly stay 2 hrs. So we do about 2.10. Is this normal to make morning A time that short or I should still increase it? Last time she had a decent 1.30 min nap was 2 weeks ago after morning A time 2.10.
I'm really confused with the system. So far I have no idea what A time is good for us, since she still naps 30-40 min.

[Ima shel Alon]

BW is all about watching cues, right?
The thing is that when you tweak A times you kinda forget about them and just look at the clock.
If 2:10 gave you a good morning nap a couple of weeks ago I would go back to that and stick to it for 4 days. If after 4 days naps are UT (45min-1:20h long and baby wakes up content) then I would increase by 10min and stick to the new A time for 4 days. Only at the 4th day you can really see if the A times work because that's how long it takes babies to get used to a new A time.
It's always easier to focus on the first A time and the first nap, because like you say some babies need a shorter A time after a short nap. Once you get the first A time right and get 1.5-2h nap then you can continue with the rest of the A times.
Some babies are easier and adjust to a new A time quick and some need a bit more time, so the process of tweaking A time can seem to be taking long.

Does that help to clarify things?

[Iryna_B]

Thank you for clarification! Now I understand!
I've been observing first naps for a couple of day. I gave her about 2.10 A time and she slept only 36-37 min. Woke up crying, but PU/PD not always work. When I see that she is not going back to sleep, I don't proceed. Such a short nap is considered OT, right? But is this possible? Couple of weeks ago with this A time she gave me normal nap and now she sleeps even less then 45 min.

[Ima shel Alon]

It's hard to tell.
You could try and shorten the A time for a couple of days and see if she stats giving better first nap. If not then I would stick with 2:10h for 4 days and if naps are still short then I would consider it to be an UT nap and increase the A time.
Most babies wake up content from an UT nap and crying from an OT nap, but my DS ALWAYS to this day wakes up crying from naps, even if he slept 2-2.5h!

[Iryna_B]

Ok, thank you! Will try to do as you said. By the way, my daughter also almost always wakes up crying even if she had a long nap:)

[Iryna_B]

Hi Ima shel Anon,
It's been a while since I posted here. My daughter is almost 7 months old in a little more than a week. And for the last month I've been trying to determine what A time is best for her. And I had a success only one time when her nap was 1.15 min. At that time her A time was 2.30. And after she made that nap I considered it UT and decided to go up to 2.40. I'd better left it 2.30. Because the routine went all over the place. It was very difficult to keep her up 2.40, because sometimes she would wake up at 5 am and practice her rolling skills for an hour and then she'd go to sleep but for 40 min. So she wakes up at 6.40-7 and it seems like she cannot handle full 2.40 A time because she had that "pre -wake up" activity and then slept just a little bit. So I'd cut her A time. I don't know, maybe I should still keep her 2.40.
After all these efforts I could hold 2.40 for some days, but naps length were so different, I don't know in what direction should I move now.
For first 2 days she had A time 2.45 and had 45 min naps. On third day she 2.36 A time, but woke-up after 26 min. Then 3 days in a row she had 2.40, 2.42 and 2.43 A time, but naps were 50 min, 16 min and 30 min. So, i'm trying to understand If I should go up or go back to 2.30. What is your opinion?
I'm tired to stay on this particular A time, because I don't see anything good comes out of it and tomorrow I'm planning to go up to 2.50. Do you think this is the right idea?

[Ima shel Alon]

Yes, that's a great idea!
All your naps sound Ut to me and I believe that you will see a difference in her naps once she is on more age appropriate A times (Average A times- BOOKMARK ME! ).
I would do now 2.40h a time for 3 days and then go up to 2.50 and after 3-4 days I would go up to 3h A time. I know it's really hard to be consistent with the A times when LO doesn't nap well and the A times don't seem to work, but the consistency is actually what makes it work.
Maybe at the end of the day she will be a tired from not enough day sleep so you can shorten the last A time before BT.
Good luck!

[Iryna_B]

Thank you!
Currently I'm working on your suggestion. In regards to second and third A time: should I still do it the same throughout the day or if her naps are short, should I make the A time shorter as well?

And I also I have question regarding her NW. Maybe you could advice me something. Recently she started waking up more often - every 2 hours and then closer to the morning - almost every hour. I don't breastfeed her every time, but just shush/pat her or gently shake her. I don't know what is the reason for these NW? Sometimes they are too long.

For the last couple of weeks her routine looked like that:

6.50 - WU (2.40)
9.30 - S (30 min)
10.00 - A (2.00)
12.00 - S (1.30 in a stroller)
13.30 - A (2.30)
16.00 - S (0.30)
16.30 - A
18.30-19.00 BT

I feed her every 3 hours, although I know that at this age she has to be on 4 hrs routine. Could it be the reason for NW? And she started solids about 2 weeks ago.
She wakes up for DF at 22.00. And then I feed her 2 more times at night and 1 time closer to morning, because she starts to wake up at about 5.30-6. So I just wanna keep her sleeping that way.

She goes to sleep quite easily, but almost never resettles by herself when wakes up.

Or could her NW be due to still having 3 naps?

[Ima shel Alon]

Currently I'm working on your suggestion. In regards to second and third A time: should I still do it the same throughout the day or if her naps are short, should I make the A time shorter as well?

That depends on her a lot and what she prefers. My DS always needed a full A time after a short nap to get a good nap out of him, but many babies need shorter A times after short naps. It's just a matter ot trial and error.

Her NW sound UT to, that should get better once her A times are more accurate.
I really don't have other advice than pushing A times, because I believe this is the only way for you to fix her naps and NW. I would keep on pushing the A times as by now she should be on more than 3h A time and on 2 naps.

[Lexy boo]

Hi
I'm having the exact same problem my 5 month old is driving me crazy with her waking up virtually every hour, she wakes up crying and it's only on the odd occasion that I can get her to fall asleep without the boob! I was thinking that she's either teething or ready to get weaned hence the waking cos she's hungry. She is my 2nd child and I'm sure my first never gave me half the sleepless nights. 

What exactly is EASY and how does it work

Desperately in need of advice

[Ima shel Alon]

Hi Lexy boo and welcome to BW!

There is information here about EASY: Starting EASY - all you need to know and more! and if you want specific help with your LO please feel free to post a new topic in the relevant board