Giving up extending naps :(

[cuckoochick]

Obviously my dd2 is younger than yours but after a short nap it's important to reduce the A time by a little so as not to get too OT. So my DD is doing 1.5hrs A time first thing or after a 1.5-2hr nap. If she naps for 45/30mins I reduce the A time to either 1hr or 1hr10min depending upon when in the day it is/how tired she seems.

So it seems like a 2hr A time first thing was too long for your LO as he only napped 25 mins. He may well have crashed for that long at the next nap because he was so OT after the short nap and another long A time. That happens here sometimes after 2 short naps, I'll get a long one.

Perhaps you could post your EAS (just general if no day is the same) and then we can see what is standing out.

Hugs x

[Lilo's mom]

So yesterday LO slept while nursing, and woke up when I put him down. I tried calming him with shh/pat and picking him up to calm him but nothing worked fine for 1,5 h, so I gave him the breast and he drank for about 5 min and slept. Put him down, and he woke up in 45 min. By that time it had been 3 hours since he had eaten so I fed him again.he woke up at 2:30 to eat, again slept while nursing but woke up when I put down, and didnt sleep until 4:30... This time I didnt nurse him, tried shh/ pat and holding him to calm. He slept until 7:30 this morning. I nursed him and started the day. Even though it ad been 5 hours since kast feed, he didnt eat much. After about 1,5 A time he was looking tired so I put him down and he slept for 2h25 nmin!. I did a very light activity, without leaving his room. So three questions:
1. Do you think he napped that much fom ot during the night?
2. Why do you think he didnt eat too much at the first feed of the day? (He never eats much at that feed ). Now Iam nursing hm (the i terval between feeds was of 4hrs) and he doesnt seem very hungry... Could it be he took all the milk he is used to takingquicker? (He started sucking very hard)
3. How long shoud I let him nap? Should I wake him up? H ow to wake him so that hedoesnt get crancky?

My routine (what I intended to do, but it is very hard to stick to it):
7 am - WU and E
10 : E
1 pm :E
4 pm: E
7 pm: bath
7:30: e
8:30: bt

The wu time always varies between 7 and 8; I try to keep the same bath/e/ bt time because of my husband, who wants to be there for the bath.
Regarding day sleep, you've been following my dilemma. Usual 20-30 min catnaps every E.
I am shifting to 3,5 and then to 4 hours E interval, starting today
Thanks !!!

[Lilo's mom]

I needed to writebecause today I amfeeling such a failure as mom..... The first  nap it took lo 40 min to sleep after he startedshowing signs he was ready to sleep (1,5 h A time). 20 out of this 40 were screaming fighting sleep. The nap lasted 25 min. The second nap again, 30 min winding down out of which 10 were screams. Again a time 1,5 h. Again 25 min. After that I thought he wanted to extend it. 20 min trying, gave up. Next attempt was on the stroller, he didnt sleep at all. Now I am feeding before bt- a total of 5h awake. He is 4 months, for God's sake!! I know he needs to sleep more!! Why does he fight so much??
Sorry ladies...just needed to vent a little. My husband arrived, saw me crying and all he said was "dont be like this..."

[creations]

Oh sweetie, you can always come here to vent x
Sometimes DH's don't say quite the right thing, but I'm sure it's because he cares about you and sees how upset you are. Men (sweeping statement coming!) often want to be fixers, and if they can't fix something they can feel like a failure.  It most likely worries and upsets him to see you upset, and tired, and just wants you to be happy.

Honestly I didn't have time to look at your EASY, I have a poorly LO here so haven't really been able to be particularly helpful or focused.  My first thought is that if he is screaming and fighting nap after a decent night and 1.5hr A time that he is UT.  It's on the short side for A at 4  months.  It was this sort of reactions I was getting from mine at around 3.5 months, UT and screaming blue murder that he didn't need a nap yet.  If there are long NWs then yes he can be ready for a nap a bit earlier and OT will usually result, eventually, in crashing and getting a very long sleep. This is not ideal and isn't a routine, but at least they get some sleep. A decent A time for this age would be 1hr 45, so if you get a good night from him I'd try it for the first nap. If the nap is short reduce the next A time.

I know it's so so hard when your baby is crying and you want them to sleep, if at all possible try to separate yourself a little emotionally, yes hold him, yes tend to him, but try not to become all consumed by the sleep problems, sing out loud or in your head to distract yourself from the crying, or wear headphones and listen to something you like.  You are not doing your baby any disservice by reducing your own stress level whilst you hold him, it isn't part of the 'deal' to feel the pain of every cry, just to be there for it.  I also find now (wish I'd felt this way back then) that my job is to support my LO not to stop him crying, he is telling me something and whether I understand it or not he has the 'right' to have his say.  Sometimes LOs just want to be heard, and not told to stop crying.  Just like us really.

hugs, it won't always be like this, you will get through it xx

[cuckoochick]

Sorry i didnt reply yesterday I was out for the day.

So so many hugs hun. It is not easy hun and it is not your fault. You can only try but you can't make your LO sleep. I saw that you posted your E's but could you post your sleep routine like this:

Wake up 7:15
A time 1.5hrs
Sleep 8:45-9:30
etc as it will be easier for creations and I to figure out.

Here with you. Will your LO accept any AP? I've been advised by so many lovely ladies on here that if my LO isn't napping at home then I should get out anyway and she can not nap while we're all getting some fresh air. Here's hoping you can have a better day.

[weaver]

I've been advised by so many lovely ladies on here that if my LO isn't napping at home then I should get out anyway and she can not nap while we're all getting some fresh air.

Absolutely this.  I'm sorry I haven't read over the whole thread (I can see you're getting excellent support) but I just wanted to say that when my LO2 was doing short naps I used to combine two sorts of naps to try to get her to sleep more. So she'd go down for a nap in her cot, wake up after 40 mins and then I'd pop her in the buggy/stroller to go out, or in the sling if we were at home, and try to get another nap out of her.  Mostly she cooperated and ended up having more or less enough sleep.

What you describe really says UT to me.  He may be low sleep needs, I imagine you've already thought about that.

I know your DH's remark seemed rather tactless (men!) but I can see what he means, as creations says, he would like to save you from crying about LOs sleep.  Please don't think that 'to be a good mom' you have to stay in a room with a crying baby for hours on end.  In fact, why not give yourselves a day off?  Go out and do something nice, if you feel you can at all.  The break may give you more of a perspective and more energy to tackle whatever's going on.  Don't drive yourself crazy. Enjoy your wonderful baby, this time will soon be gone.

[creations]

Just stopping by with a ((hug))

[Lilo's mom]

Thanks ladies for your support! I have been timing the awake times of my  baby and I realize he doesnt go down before 2h, regardless of the length of the previous nap. By 2 h, he has already shown many many signs of being tired (signs begin with 1:40), but if I put him down by the time the signs begin he wakes up completely and starts talking and kicking and cooing. I have to wait until he is borderline ot... After he has yawned several times, when he actually starts complaining.
In the past 3 weeks, I have been able to extend 3 or 4 naps. Only one of which was in his crib. The others were on the stroller- at the 20 min mark, I start rocking it back and forth. Doesnt work every time, but it was the only way I could get him to nap a little more. I have tried putting him on the stroller right after hed wakes, no success in extending naps this way either.
His night sleep has improved, so I think the phase when he was waking several times was a gs as you said.
You know, if I manage to succeed putting him down for a nap easily, I can live with the fact tha it only lasts 30 min each time, and plan for him to take 4 or 5 during the day. What I cant accept is taking 40 min + fr a 20 min nap.
Did your lo's have schedules by 4 months? E.g. 9 am is naptime? Does this help at this point?
Thank you
Mariana

[creations]

For under 1yos I believe working with A times and cues is the most useful routine.  At around 1yo I find it is worth switching to set nap and bed times regardless of A time.

I can well imagine how frustrating and draining it is to spend 40 mins to get a 20 min nap - utterly utterly draining.

Yes my LO had a routine but it was based on A times, it was very similar each day with gradual A time increases from say 1 month to 4 months but our short naps began then and it was 5 naps a day for us until 5.5 months when his first nap lengthened and we began to see a better routine. I see routine as something predictable, so even 5 x 40 min naps can be predictable, just not desirable.

The early sleepy cues may well be boredom signals, see if a change of scene helps, moving to a different room can often stop the boredom yawns in their tracks and the second round of yawns are the true sleepy ones.  If you are finding 2hrs and a short wind down are more suited to your LO then I say go for it. Worst that happens is he becomes OT and honestly I will take OT over UT any day of the week.  It's not that I *like* OT but I find it's easier to deal with, some crying but sleep reasonably quickly, some disturbance and WUs but easier to re-settle.  But UT, argh, I'd rather stab myself in the eye with a ball point pen!  That's just my preference. You can always reduce the A time a little if it starts looking too long.  You might find that you are beginning the WD too early making him fight and then he fights right past his window of sleep which pushes him over into OT.

Don't forget to give yourself a break, get some air, have a walk.

[Lilo's mom]

Thanks, Creations, you put in words what I was thinking it was happening... So your naps only improved at 5,5 mo? Good to know my situation still might improve...
Glad to know that it is still normal not to have schedules for anything. I am trying to work very hard on the sequence (the activities happening more or less in the same order); mornings are well sorted but afternoons in general are each day a different story because I never now how much it will take for him to nap and for how long he will nap,,, so everyday is a different one. I do control the bed time.
Thanks thanks thanks thanks I cant thank you ladies enough for being there for someone you dont even know. You can be sure that you make me feel much less lonely.
 

[creations]

You'll never be alone with BW forums in your life!  We've all had down times.  It was DS's 4 month regression (which came at more like 3.5 months) that brought me to the forums, prior to that he'd been sleeping independently.  Many LOs improve their day sleep at around 6 months. Honestly I'll never know if our short naps were 'the regression' or that I was slow on upping his A times and just encouraging the cycle of UT for naps leading to OT by BT.  It's never easy to say exactly what went on as there are always a million things going on with LOs. We also started reflux meds at 5.5 months which likely had an impact. They never do things one at at a time so we can just sort out each thing in isolation!

See how a change of scene does him, with a slightly longer A and...you never know. But always keep in mind you do not have to keep on extending the naps, shush/patting in a dark room for hours on end is gruelling.
I'll tell you another thing that may or may not have had any impact on my LOs naps. The first long nap when he started to come out of 'the regression' was a day I decided I absolutely must rest. I put him down for his nap and instead of using the 40 mins to try to clean the house, or make a cup of tea I just lay on my bed (same room) and shut my eyes. I fell to sleep and the pair of us slept about 1.5hrs.  I will never know if my presence, hearing me breathing, just knowing I was there maybe relaxed him enough to sleep longer? But I felt so much better having had a rest!
xx

[cuckoochick]

Creations is one wise lady. I know what you mean about accepting the short naps but the battle to get them is what is frustrating.

Hugs and more hugs. It certainly sounds like you are doing all you can. Xxx

[Lilo's mom]

Just wanted to tell you that today he went to his ped, and he is absolutely fine, gaining weight and growing and developimg...so the doctor didnt worry about the whole napping thing, since he is sleeping fine at night. Ok, so now I should do as Nanita did: stop obsessing about naps and enjoing every second my lo stays awake. Really I must think about it as a gift - I will miss those moments like crazy when I go back to work.
I couldnt have gone through all that and kept sanity without you ladies. Thank you so much.
Big hugs, Mariana

[cuckoochick]

Hugs hun. My dd1 was a terrible sleeper until 6.5mos and honestly now she's brilliant. I think trying not to obsess sounds like a perfect plan xxx

[creations]

chin up. All this will pass, and yes, try to enjoy every moment x