Author Topic: Martina, 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....  (Read 3403 times)

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Offline Martina230413

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Martina, 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« on: September 16, 2013, 09:37:02 am »
Hi all,

I'm new to the forum and I have been reading and following Tracy Hogg's method for just over a week now. Our issues were multiple as it often happens, Martina is my second child and I succeeded with bf this time around so was delighted with myself and fed on demand for 3.5 months. At that point I knew Martina would nap during the day (mostly cat nap) but couldn't tell you when or for how long  ??? Nights have always been full of awakenings, and i latched her on every time to settle her. Plus I would take her into the bed from about 4 to get a bit more rest myself  :-\ Oh and I bfed her to sleep every night too. I know I know, what more could I do wrong? My first son was bottlefed, slept through the night from about 8 weeks! So we are at a loss with this one.
Anyway, I do believe in routines and started first with a proper bedtime (8.15ish start bath, cuddles, feed and mostly going to her cot asleep by 8.45) and she would be consistently asleep for a while but could wake up any time from 11.30 pm to 1.30 am, then again 3am, 5am, 6 am etc.Not always though, some nights we would have been lucky I guess and she could sleep 6 hours straight (and then usual waking pattern as above). I introduced cereal and fruit about 3 weeks ago thinking it may be hunger, but made no difference to the nights.

As of a week ago I decided it was time to make a change and I started introducing a proper EASY routine whicc during the day is already working quite well though times may shift a bit.

E 7.20 am bf
A mostly chatting to her in her recliner while having breakfast, sle plays with soft toys hanging from the bar etc.
S generally by 9 and now she falls asleep in her cot with gentle stroking/patting and reassuring talk with minimal crying. this nap can be anywhere between 45 min to 2 hours but generally on the short side.

E 11.45-12 she has fruit/veg puree
A is short here as she is been awake already a couple of hours but we do tickle time, tummy time, looking at books  etc
S 1pm this is the easiest putting to bed time, requires no intervention at all most times and she sleeps again between 45 min to 1.5 hours generally at least 1 hour.

E 4pm bf
A much as above
S cat nap here but could be as late as 6 and I wake her after 30 min if she still asleep. This nap is a struggle, I suspect maybe overtired by the time I decide to give in and put her down

E 7pm baby cereal of some kind and small bit of fruit or goat yoghurt.
A quiet activity mostly while we eat and she can be on my laps taking part

8.15is bath, bf and she is asleep by 8.45-9pm (depending on the last catnap)

11pm dream feed with bottle, she doesn't take more than 4oz

She refuses the pacifier, but has a little lovey mostly because I started giving it to her after "wearing" it during bf in the hope to help settle her.

When she wakes up at night she is always crying. I have tried pu/pd and wake to sleep but she is such a light sleeper that I always wake her fully!

Any  help or tips? Many thanks, back to work in 5 weeks!!  :o :o
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 14:38:57 pm by Martina230413 »

Offline Layla

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Re: Martina, almost 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2013, 10:37:36 am »
Hi there and welcome to the BW :)

I think the routine may need a bit of tweaking, in particular the last nap of the day and bedtime. Alot of babies still take 3 naps at 5 months but it can also be the start of the 3-2 nap transition, which may be a sign of her fighting the last nap of the day. Typically 5mo's average A time is between 2-2.5hrs. In order to drop the CN, you would probably have to stretch her to 3 hrs A time so it could take a while before you get there but just something to keep in mind too ;).

Her A time in the morning is fairly short (1.5hrs) so I would probably start with the morning nap and try and stretch her until it is closer to 9.30am (2hrs A time). Go slow and add about 10-15mins to her A time every 3-4 days until you get there. For the last nap of the day (CN), we generally say it is OK to use some accidental parenting to achieve the nap if she's fighting it. Would she sleep in the pram or baby carrier? If you can't squeeze in a catnap without compromising bedtime hour then forget the catnap and go for earlier bedtime (a super early one). If the catnap pushed bedtime too late, that can cause overtiredness (less sleep at night). Try to aim for 11-12hrs at night and it may be that she's waking up at night because she is going to bed too late.

Also, I noticed that she isn't having a BF at lunch and dinner? At this age milk is still much more important than solids and solids are just for fun/to try. I've just started introducing solids but I do BF first and then an hour later I give some solids. For breakfast, I do rice cereal (2 tablespoons) and at lunch she has some banana (1/2 of a banana) and that is all. The rest of the feeds are BF feeds (6am, 10ish, 2.30ish, 4.30pm (1 side) and 5.30pm and generally at night we have 1-2 night feeds).

I've attached some links for you to take a look at:
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!!
All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months
Sample EASY routines, 3-6 months

Let me know what you think :)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 10:48:08 am by Layla »



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Offline Martina230413

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Re: Martina, almost 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2013, 12:49:52 pm »
Layla thank you very much, I'm just back now after resettling her to lengthen the afternoon nap (awoke after 45 minutes but definitely still tired). I will definitely work on the A time, i realise we are in a vicious circle where she is tired early in the morning as she woke up so many times at night. I am please with myself that I seem to be able to struggle less and less with the daytime naps and she also resettled very quickly!

As to bf you are absolutely right, I am just worried that I'm going back to work and will not have the possibility to feed her at lunch so I had removed that bf in the last 10 days or so. Maybe I should still give her the formula bottle? It is true I don't bf her at dinner time but I thought that as I bfeed her about 90 minutes after it would have been ok. Can review that also of course.
She will sleep in the stroller, that is how she slept when on holidays but again I thought that it would have been better for her to learn to sleep in the cot and so I wasn't sure if it was ok to confuse her this early in establishing a routine.

Of course I know it's still early days and I think she has already come a long way so I am  not discouraged! I am keeping a diary too and I think I find confusing the fact that her nights are so erratic even if her day is fairly structured (can be better I know but from zero routine to some routine is a big thing for us!). 
I will check out the links and let you know!

What do you think about the fact that every time she wakes at night (or after a short nap) she cries? It is not the mantra cry, it's a full on cry. I think it's that she is still tired in fact i can help her back to sleep, say now I only had to do PU/PD 3 times and she was asleep again in 5-10 minutes) I have seen there is a 3d on the waking after a sleep cycle, so I'm going to check it out now!

xxx

Offline Layla

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Re: Martina, almost 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2013, 23:07:32 pm »
Quote (selected)
As to bf you are absolutely right, I am just worried that I'm going back to work and will not have the possibility to feed her at lunch so I had removed that bf in the last 10 days or so. Maybe I should still give her the formula bottle? It is true I don't bf her at dinner time but I thought that as I bfeed her about 90 minutes after it would have been ok. Can review that also of course.
Yes, I would bring back both breastfeeds - mine does seem to want feeds more frequently towards the end of the day and they are not 3.5-4hrs apart.. i guess this is her way of "tanking up" before bedtime. Whether you give her formula or express and give her the bottle is up to you. Will you get a chance to express this feed at work?

Quote (selected)
She will sleep in the stroller, that is how she slept when on holidays but again I thought that it would have been better for her to learn to sleep in the cot and so I wasn't sure if it was ok to confuse her this early in establishing a routine.
usually for the last nap of the day we say it is ok for them to have that nap outside the cot, because it is a very short nap and it will start to disappear very soon (we're now on 2 naps at 5 months).

The crying at night my DD does that too - that's her way of saying she is hungry and I feed her. Are you doing any feeds at night? We never did a DF and with some LOs the DF can disturb their night so you could always try no DF and feed her when she wakes (especially since she's not taking that much at DF)

Mid nap - my DD only cries when she's overtired but it could also be part of your DD's temperament (have a look at this link) - The BW "Know Your Baby Quiz"



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Offline Martina230413

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Re: Martina, almost 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2013, 11:30:20 am »
Thank you for all your tips and I thought I should update you on how it is going. Much better in short!!

I have reintroduced bf at lunch time or just before as and aperitif should we say  ;D and also her dinner time is earlier (just before 7) with an earlier start to the bedtime routine (7.30) so that she is asleep by 8-8.15 with bf which is now probably happening about 45-50 minutes since her cereal dinner.
I have tried waiting till she wakes and not DF her but she would actually wake say around 11.30 pm (so half an hour after the time I would DF her) and eats the whole bottle a bit quicker and seems to taking a little longer to re settle and fall asleep again.

Yes I do bfeed her at night, before starting the routine I would do it even 4 times as it was the only way I knew to resettle her every time she woke up. As of the last 3 nights she is only waking up at around 4 am (give or take 30 minutes) and I bfeed her and she goes right back to sleep and will last till 7 which is when we start the day. I had to really force myself to have her day starting at 7 even if the night was rough and it paid off!! I also lengthened her activity time to 2 hours like you suggested, she now goes down for her nap at 9 (but she is awake since 7) and will sleep for 35-45 minutes. Her lunch is also now earlier at 11-11.15 starting with bf and moving on to a bit of root veg. She then goes down around 12 very easily and content (wohooo) and although she still wakes after 45 minutes it's easy enough to resettle her and stretch that nap to at least 90 minutes in total.

I suspect she may be at the transition stage from 3 to 2 naps as not always she sleeps later in the afternoon (in which case I will have her in bed well before 8pm), if I carry her out in the sling she will definitely nap but like you say not for long (may not get 30 minutes).

Unfortunately I fail miserably at pumping, if I pump it looks like I have no milk at all and it was very depressing with my DS1 so much so I quickly moved to formula 100% as I believed I had no milk. With Martina I was probably much more relaxed, she would feed maybe for an hour at the beginning but then was settled so I must have had plenty as she always grew beautifully. Yet if I pump...it's hopeless. So I returned my hospital grade pump and never looked back. Initially I thought if I get a month of bf it would be fabulous and here i am 5 month later still doing it!

Offline Martina230413

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Re: Martina, almost 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2013, 06:15:29 am »
Terrible night... Like we never got any better  :(

Offline Layla

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Re: Martina, almost 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2013, 09:59:05 am »
Big ((hugs)) how was her daytime sleep? Sometimes things get worse before they get better. If you have it noted, could you please post what your last couple of days looked like?



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Offline Martina230413

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Re: Martina, almost 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2013, 14:38:32 pm »
Hi Layla thank you as always for your support. Sorry about the delay in replying I had a busy couple of days. So on wednesday we started a course of baby massage which has interfered with her morning nap, so she definitely got to the lunchtime nap overtired but then she slept for about 1 hour and had a late afternoon nap too around 4.30. I put her to bed just before 8 and that night was still good, one wake up at 4 for feed and then at 7am. I DF her at 11 pm as always.

Thursday was a proper napping day with 45 minuted starting at 9am (she woke at 7), then 90 minutes starting at 12 after lunch (with resettling mid way through), no late afternoon nap and in bed for 8. Here it was already clear the night was not going to go smoothly, she woke up at least twice before the DF which is highly unusual, always crying. I fed her only when she was back asleep but I started thinking she maybe had not had enough to eat during the day so perhaps she was hungrier than normal. Of course I had a big day on the friday as I had to go to work and she must have woken up every 1-2 hours, sometimes she would resettle, some other I latched her on and kept her in the bed...

So then friday my husband had to look after her (first time I have to say!) and she had a very late morning nap starting at about 10am when I took over for a bit, her usual 45 minutes. Then my husband managed to settle her after lunch at 1.50 pm but then picked her up after 45 minutes as he didn't think he could resettle her. She fell asleep again at 5.50 pm and he woke her up after 20 minutes, but again our bedtime routine was highly disrupted, she was quite restless, didn't fall asleep till 8.30 and woke up at least twice within the first hour. DF at 11 and then she woke at 1 am, 3, 4 (feed), 5.30 and 7.30... On one occasion (I can't remember which one) she woke with a bit of a cry but resettled herself very quickly.

Saturday (yesterday) was a bit of turning point thankfully, she had her morning nap at 9.30 for the usual 45 minutes, ate loads at lunch (bf and sweet potato at 12.15) and slept for 2 hours solid starting at 1.50 pm so she had a long A time of 2.5 hours. In fact I woke her after the 2 hours as I was not sure to let her sleep longer which never happens to her! For the first time I didn't have to resettle her. We went out for a walk and she had a cat nap at around 5.15 pm of maybe 30 minutes. Her bedtime routine was text book even though a bit later than normal, bath, cuddle, bf and asleep by 8.30. Woke just before 11pm, quickly resettled her before DF around 11.20. Now she is drinking a good bit more, about 5oz at DF. Then she woke at 1, I fed her and back to her cot, she woke again maybe an hour  later and I resettled her in her cot and she slept till 4.30 when i fed her again and she woke maybe around 7 but didn't cry at all and I fed her again at 7.30.
So far the day is good, slept for her usual 45 minutes starting at 9.30 and went down for her afternoon nap at about 1.15, she slept for 1 hour and 45 min with no resettling needed. i think this is a big step forward, i'm a little afraid to think this will last of course but i cherish every long stretch she gets. Her A time seems to be longer and longer after her morning nap. We'll see how it goes tonight. She will be 5 months tomorrow!

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Re: Martina, 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2013, 22:01:24 pm »
I thought I'd post another update. Last night Martina slept from 8.30 to 5 am ;D and even though it took her 40 minutes to settle after the feed I was delighted! Today her naps have been quite out of wack of course and she had a longer nap at 9.30 (1h15m) and only 45 min at lunch which meant she was very tired at 4 and had two naps almost consecutively as we were out and about with the stroller. Not sure how the night is going to go, let's hope for the best!

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Re: Martina, 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2013, 22:11:11 pm »
Fingers crossed for a good night, thanks for the update  ;D :-*



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Offline Martina230413

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Re: Martina, 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2013, 12:30:58 pm »
The night was good!! Again she only woke once (4.40) but went right back to sleep after the feed till 7am. Proper nap this morning of 40 minutes (at 9am) and now she is napping again.

Layla can you give me some advice though, the 10 minutes pre-nap time she always cries, you would say it's the mantra cry but I don't think it is, it escalates, stops, start again. I can get her to fall asleep in her cot with me singing a lullaby (maybe it's my horrible tune!!) and patting her nappy and it goes from crying to sleep like a switch, no calming time in between. It will generally take 10-15 minutes of this. I wonder if I'm doing it wrong? Our nap time ritual is always the same and she is fine most of the time till sleeps arrive and she is fighting it I think.
Any advice is appreciated, I would love for her to enjoy nap time not hating it!

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Re: Martina, 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2013, 12:39:05 pm »
What are her A times at the moment? It may be her way of releasing some tension before going to sleep... it could also be that she's either overtired or undertired. How many naps is she taking and how long are they...would you be able to post her EAS please?



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Offline Martina230413

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Re: Martina, 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2013, 19:33:50 pm »
I'm trying to be fairly consistent so this is out typical day for the last few days:
E 7am
A
S 9am (40-45 min)
A
E 11.30 (this is a bit flexible, if I see she is hungry early I feed her)
A
S 12.30 (we start our wind down routine around 12.15 and depending on her crying mood she could start sleeping as late as 1pm. Sleeps well for 2 hours)
E 3.30-4
A
E 6.30
A (very low key)
S 7.45 (start wind down routine around 7.15)

She cries also at the last bed time, it could well be that it's her way of releasing tension, she is really active when I put her on the changing table before and after the bath (full body movements, happy and content till I put the pj on) then it's boob to fall asleep here and in her cot. But nap time it's never bfeeding to sleep, in fact there is no bf at all on those occasions. If it's her way if releasing tension I suppose there is very little I can do?

I mentioned in a previous post that the last cat nap is on her way out, sometime she has one which pushes her bedtime to 8-8.30 sometimes like today she doesn't and bed time is earlier.

Offline Layla

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Re: Martina, 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2013, 03:19:17 am »
Ok, my thoughts are that she's screaming before nap #1 because she's not tired enough (which also explains the short nap) and then she's overtired by 2nd nap and even more so before bedtime, especially if she's not taking the catnap.

I would really work on spreading out her naps a little more so that the morning gap isn't so short and the last gap isn't so long. Ideally you want 3 hrs in between naps so that your day looks something like this:

7am - wake
10 -11.30 - morning nap
2.30-4 - afternoon nap
7pm - bedtime

So if you can, try adding 15mins to her A time in the morning every 3 days or so until you get to 10am. With the longer A time, she will hopefully sleep a little more than 45mins too.

Here is a link which explain the 3-2 nap transition, which is where I think you are with your LO
All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

Let me know how you go with that :)



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Offline Martina230413

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Re: Martina, 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2013, 08:45:13 am »
Thank you!! Will definitely work on that, initially (when I started the routine about 3 weeks ago) she was going for a nap about 1.5 hours after waking in the morning after plenty of awakes at night (hence my post title hehe) so stretching it to 2 hours made it definitely better but of course she is also growing and probably it's time for a proper new transition. Last night she woke loads (10.15, 2am, 4.37 which is her feeding time like a clock, 6.15 and 7), and took ages to settle her, not sure why but I don't mind one bad night if the others are mostly fine. I've introduced today some relaxing tunes for nap time, she definitely stopped crying and fell asleep from a calm state without patting or sushing. I believe I have to find the way that works for her still! Will update you in how it goes!

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Re: Martina, 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2013, 20:57:26 pm »
Hi Layla,

just to update you on my progress, I was so so happy as on friday and saturday martina's nap in the morning was pushing 1 hour 15 while the afternoon one was as long as 2.5 hours! And then it was straight to bed time around 7.30 with not much changes in the waking pattern at night (back to waking around 3 or 4 am for a feed and then again around 5-6 but i resettle her more or less successfully and she sleeps till 7-7.15) she also now wakes before her dreamfeed so it's not much of dream feed at all.
Today we had 3x45 minutes naps, I am able to push her naptime in the morning to 9.30 and her lunch time maybe to 1.15 but she is maybe a bit too tired then, will have to do gentler adjustments to have an A time of 3 hours.
Also, suddenly i'm terrified of SIDS... :'( :'( I had this fear too with my son, watched him like an hawk, had all sorts of monitors...didn't enjoy much the first few months I was so terrified. I was very proud with myself as I didn't have this terror with Martina, I was so much more relaxed, no monitors or other gimmicks, really loving her being small...an as of yesterday I took down from the attic the sensor pad...I wish i could rationalise that I can only do my best to make her sleep safe and just keep enjoying each day. I think it's because she has started rolling over in her cot   :-[ :-[ sorry I know this is quite OT!

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Re: Martina, 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2013, 23:35:13 pm »
Its not too OT... I am the same and have a video camera in J's room too. I use a sleep sac/gro bag, which makes it harder for her to roll over and because I don't use a blanket, it also keeps her warm at night.. perhaps you could invest in something like that? With the rolling over part, if she has good head/neck control, she should be ok but make sure you give her lots and lots of practice during the day too :-*



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Offline Martina230413

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Re: Martina, 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2013, 06:56:24 am »
Oh yes we only use grobags here  ;D she has very good neck strength but she is now holding onto the bars to help herself rolling over which means she is attached to the edge of the cot stuck as she has no room to move! Also as soon as I put her down, she bends her knees and rolls to the side which is how she falls asleep. Will invest in a camera too just to see what she's up to!  ;D

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Re: Martina, 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2013, 09:36:38 am »
I am afraid I don't really have good news...I start feeling this is not working for us at all or I'm doing it totally wrong.

we are 5 solid weeks now on the EASY routine, she is easily on the 4h schedule for feed but in all this time she was able to fall asleep on her own twice (twice!!!), every other time I have to be there and help her to sleep. Which is fine, I don't mind it really, but I thought she would have eventually been able to do it herself.
While days are fine, nights are a complete hit and miss, again last night was up every 2 hours (crying) and needed lots of comfort to resettle. I admit I was in  tears. I'm going back to work in 10 days and dreading it. I think I can count on one hand the nights where she woke up once for her feed around 3.30-4 and every other night has been at least 2-3-4-5 wakings, every time crying. Seriously crying.

I'll write down here her current routine, but to be honest, I think I'm missing the point on how to help her settle rather than being doing something wrong with the routine. She occasionally may be OT if she skips the CN (I thought she was ready to drop it but more often than not she falls asleep while feeding if she doesn't have one!) but definitely not always, and this is why I don't know what to do.

E 7.00-7.15 am
A
E 8.15 a bit of fruit
S 9.30 am (can be 45 min or 1h45 or anything in between)
E around 11.30-12, she has root veg and fruit
A
S this sleeping time depends on when she woke in the morning, say 1 pm to 1.30 pm and she generally has the long nap here 2h
E 3.30-4 bottle
A
E 7 pm cereal and bf
S 8pm after bath, cuddles and boob

Help me please  ??? ???

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Re: Martina, 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2013, 09:48:50 am »
Big hugs hon....how old is she now??



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Offline Martina230413

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Re: Martina, 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2013, 12:20:45 pm »
Hi Layla, she is 5 and half month now, I know it's in the wonder week(s) period and maybe she is sensing I'm going back to work. We will have a nanny as I only have to go back for 6 weeks and then can take time off for another 6 weeks. The nanny is a lovely girl, she has started to come to the house when I'm there to get to know Martina and her routines. Martina is not showing signs of strangers anxiety (just read on the other board) and I'm doing all I can to avoid any separation anxiety...  ???

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Re: Martina, 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2013, 23:19:54 pm »
I still think you need to work on pushing out the A times since she's not taking the last nap as her A before bed is too long! If she's not taking the catnap, her A's really need to be around 3hrs across the day and bedtime needs to be earlier to compensate for the missed nap. If she's up from her afternoon nap around 3pm and is then awake till 8pm, that is too long of a stretch.

How do you help her go to sleep?

Quote (selected)
I think I can count on one hand the nights where she woke up once for her feed around 3.30-4 and every other night has been at least 2-3-4-5 wakings, every time crying. Seriously crying.
Also I would cut out the cereal before bed. It might be making her feel uncomfortable, which could also be causing the frequent night wakings. She really only needs milk at this stage, that is the primary source of her food. Having solids before 6 months and too much solids will put pressure on the immature gut and can cause more night wakings.

This is what I would aim for:
7am - wake and BF/bottle
8am - solids (a bit of fruit)
10-11.30 - morning nap
11.30 - wake and BF/bottle
12.30 - solids (a bit of veg)
2.30-4pm - afternoon nap
4pm - wake and BF/bottle
5.30/6pm - another BF/bottle (top up/cluster feed)
bath/bedtime routine/final BF/bottle
7pm - bed



20/06/2012 - my angel baby

Offline Layla

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Re: Martina, 5 months old, awake every 2 hours....
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2013, 23:31:04 pm »
How are you going?



20/06/2012 - my angel baby