Need help to get out of this viscous cycle

[confusedmummy]

Hi,

DD is now just 12 months old and for a while we have had long NWs and EWs. Her routine before the issues started was:
A- 4hrs
S- 1.5/2hrs
A- 4hrs
S- 30/45mins
A- 2/2.5hrs
BT

This worked perfectly but then the 2nd nap got later a it took her longer to go to sleep, then the EW started. So I was advised on the GS board to try 1 nap which worked for a day then I got either EW or a long NW. At the moment she has had one nap for the last 3 days simply because WU has been later due to 2hr NW's. she generally wake after about 8hrs usually 2 or 3 and cries then I have to go in and she will either continue to cry, go quiet but not sleep or talk to herself. I generally feed as she is not eating loads at the moment, but I really don't think hunger is waking her. It usually takes over an hour or a lot more to get back to sleep.

I don't know how to break I know she is OT but as she then wakes later after going back to sleep a CN would be too late. I just can't find a happy medium or a suitable routine. I really hope someone can help I'm so tired as is my DD 😩

[Joy-filled]

We meet again!  We've got a pair of touchy sleepers, don't we  . Hugs to you and wishes that you'll get some great advice here to help you and your DD get on track.  I never had a chance to leave the boards here as we never ended up getting the 2 naps figured out, despite great efforts from the mods here helping us.  We too are trying 1 nap now and hoping it will work eventually. 

What does your 1 nap EAS look like?  What A time are you using or are you doing a set nap?  How long is her nap on the 1 nap days?

[confusedmummy]

Well her EAS is all over the place in terms of set times. But generally she does 4.5/5hrs 1st A time the second depends on what time she has woken and whether she is having a CN. It's usually 4.5hrs but has been longer but anything more than 5hrs is too much for her and she is unsettled early on at night as well as the NW's. when all kids are in bed I will post her last few days EAS. I'm going to try a CN tonight as otherwise BT would be 5/5.30 and that really doesn't work for her. On one nap day it has been as long as 2.25hrs but lately is 1.5hrs.

I have just put her down for a CN and she is protesting but I can't do EBT. I feel like everything I do is wrong and results in an EW or NW. Well after 10 mins of hysterical crying even though she is exhausted I have given up and joined her crying. I don't know what to do. She cannot survive on 1.5hrs day sleep but wont PM nap without a lot of crying. Also it depresses me as I know when I go in I will be in there for hours as it seems to keep her awake. I have absolutely no idea what do with her. Maybe set capped naps? 😢😩

[Joy-filled]

Oh, honey I've been there too crying right along with Aaron.  He also absolutely would not take a pm nap without screaming and screaming, that's why I had to push to 1 nap.  It didn't matter how long his am nap time was or what A times I used, he simply screamed for the pm nap.  Me being in the room also did not help at all....just made him angrier. 

Perhaps once you post your EAS some advice can be given.  How old is your DD now?

[confusedmummy]

Thanks hun, I've just started reading your thread and it does sound like my DD although to be fair she never used to scream for CN just cry a little and fuss and take a while to go off but usually did. It's only really since trying one nap that when I do try a CN she hates it, but in car she will sometime fuss but will usually go, but petrol costs a fortune.

Tonight her second A time was 5.5hrs by the time she finally fell asleep but again not without a lot of heavy crying. He last few days have looked like this

Mon:
WU- 8.10 (BT was 7.40 but she woke twice once at 2.30 for 1.5hrs then, 4.30 for 30mins)
A- 4h05m
S- 12.15- 2.15
A-  5hrs
BT- 7.15

Tues:
WU- 7.55( but NW at 3.30- 4.30)
A- 4.5hrs
S- 12.25- 1.55
A- 4h40
BT- 6.35

Wed:
WU- 7.30 (NW at 3.30- 4.15)
A- 4hrs
S- 11.30- 1.10
A- 5.5hrs (tried for CN but no chance took a while to fall asleep)
BT- 6.40

Who knows what the night will hold but I'm not holding out any hope for a good one. I know she's probably in a OT/UT loop as her days aren't really long enough but I can't stretch her afternoon A time any more and I'm worried if I stretch AM her naps will get even shorter, they have already gone from over 2hrs to 1.5hrs. She is having SA at the moment as she has just started with childminder 2 weeks ago but doesn't go regular days as DP works shifts so he has her different days each week but I don't think (I could be wrong) her NW's are due to this. I think as well as OT/UT it's partly habit/body clock. Plus I don't handle NWs very well and so maybe I'm not helping them to end or for her to settle quickly IYKWIM.

She has also become really fussy with food so doesn't eat a great deal during day so I have been feeding, but I really don't want to but sometimes it seems like it helps her settle, but mostly not.

Well she just woke crying hysterically again, it's taken 10 mins to get her back to sleep, for how long I don't know, although I did stand outside her door and soothe with my voice rather than go in with physical contact which is what I did a while back while ST. Well 2 mins and she started again although it was just one cry and stopped. I don't know whether ST will help with NW's or at least make them either shorter OT allow her to SS or if I should wait and do it later??  I'm so lost and confused with her and feeling helpless and useless. I'm not able to figure out what she needs and that sucks 😩

[jcsmom]

Hi there, we meet again. I feel like you, me and Char K need a support group or something for tired mommies of inconsistent sleepers. They are just so hard to figure out aren't they? I have spent the better part of 12 months crying over sleep too. Right now I am in a good place. I have decided that I am going to stick to a schedule that works for me and see where that goes. Ask me tomorrow and I may be a mess

I am by no means an expert (if I were, my dd would sleep  well however from what I know, this is what I am going to suggest. Another site I belong to recommends adding up wake time and total wake time for the day to figure out when to put baby down for a sleep. At this age they suggest 10.25-10.5 hours of total wake time. Many babies over there at this age, on 2 naps are doing up to 11 or more before the transition. Over there they suggest 2 one hour naps or even less day sleep to preserve night sleep. If your DD is not getting enough wake time in the day, she will wake at night and then be OT from being up in the night, iykwim. From the days you posted, she is only getting 9, 9 hours 10 mins, 9.5 of awake time on 2 naps (if you don't count nightwakings). I think she is waking at night due to not enough total wake time and getting in to an UT/OT loop. Make sense?

My DD will STTN on 2 naps if her total wake time is 10.5-11. If it is over 11 she has an OT EW or an early night waking. I know initially on one nap they may need more sleep/less awake time but what I am finding with my DD is anything less than about 10.5 hours of awake time causes NWs, even on one nap (we have tried a few one nap days). I don't think she is loow sleep needs, I think she is about average at this point.

Sounds like a whole lot of science. If I were you I would push her first nap to 5 hours of A time (but not before noon as from what I recall she is prone to EWs right?) and then aim for another 5-5.5 after until she gets used to one nap then aim for more of a 6/4.5 (or some form of 10.5-11 hours of awake time) as she gets older pushing that nap out to 12:30/1pm. Once she has transitioned she will probably need about 13-14 hours of total sleep probably closer to 13.25-13.5. I just don't think many babies can do 12 hours nights and 2 or 3 hours of naps unless they are higher sleep needs.

I hope this helps some. Again, I am not an expert, just a sleep obsessed freak of a momma! Hugs to you xx

[confusedmummy]

Thanks jcsmom. It's just so hard I know she finds a long A time to BT hard to handle and usually means a struggle to get to sleep.

 Her early BT after one nap on wed actually resulted in a very unrest full first 1hr of BT but then no NW's and a 13hr night. But then WU was early 6.10 so one nap would have meant a SEBT which I won't do, and she also only slept for 1.5hrs on Thursday. So yesterday I have her 2 naps, she did protest for 2nd but not as much as usual and after 10mins she was asleep. She had a much later BT and as normal with two naps she STTN but woke early her night was only 9.75hrs with a 5.30 WU. So today is even more unlikely for a 1 nap day. Her EAS was like this:

WU- 6.10
A- 4.5hrs
S- 10.40- 12.10
A- 4h50m
S- 5-5.30
A- 2.25hrs
BT- 7.45- with a WU this morning of 5.30

I just don't know what to do now? If I go for a long Am A time and she only pulls a short nap a CN would be late making her day super long which then results in a short night. But one nap could then mean a 5pm or earlier BT which could result in a 4am WU and no hope of getting back to sleep. Ugh I just can't win 😩x

[Layla]

(((hugs)))

have you tried the shorter am/longer pm option? (sorry if you've mentioned it before )

[confusedmummy]

Unfortunately I work mon-fri till 1 and I have school run at 3 so it's too tight for a longer PM nap. I'm thinking maybe to cap her AM nap to 1.5hrs unless its a late nap from a decent WU time then try a shorter A time for a CN maybe 3.75-4hrs. Then a longer A time to BT. I'm trying this today so will see how it goes. So far her day has looked like this:

WU- 5.30
A- 5h10 (at childminders)
S- 10.40-12.10
I have just put her down after just 3hrs 35m as she has been grumpy for about an hour. She's not alseep yet but only loudly protested (so far 😄) for a few mins and is now lying down on tummy just occasionally chatting to herself. I'm hoping for a 30min nap till 4.30 then BT of 7 (would have done later but I'm off out tonight). What do people think?

[Joy-filled]

I'm wondering if you'll get a 7 pm BT if she has a 30 min CN that goes until 4:30 .  My DS would need at least 3 hrs after a 30 min CN so if it was me I'd cap the nap at 20 min and go for a 6:45 BT.  I think otherwise her day is going to be too long as I'm going to guess she won't go to sleep until 7:30 on a 30 min CN.  What do you think?

[confusedmummy]

Thanks CK. it was actually an epic fail she has just fallen asleep at 4.30, that was my cut off to get her up and give in. So I guess I'm going to have to cut short to 20mins (hardly seems worth all the hassle really) which will really P her off. Then still go for a 7pm BT. Or earlier or later? Can't do much later but maybe 15mins. She has gone to bed after 2hrs A time before in fact that was her routine so it has been done. If I could just get a decent WU and have it continue then one nap would be fine but a pre 6am wake up would mean a way to early BT on one nap. Children, why don't they understand 😄x

[Joy-filled]

I think that's probably the best plan given the situation.  Perhaps you should do a "nap no earlier than ____" rule?  How long does she nap typically (when you don't cap)?

[confusedmummy]

I woke after 20 mins and managed a BT at 7.15 so an A time of 2h25m. She STTn but again only managed a 9h55m night resulting in a 5.10 WU, tried to get her bts but she was having none of it. Now I'm stuck again as to what to do. Maybe her day is too long with 2naps but I really don't want a 5pm BT. I need to push WU time later without over stretching her. I feel like its a catch 22, on one nap I get NW's and with 2 I get EW's I just need to find the middle ground

[confusedmummy]

Wow, yesterday I apop'd an early CN in the car which gave her a longer A time to bed and she pulled a 12.5hr night. May have been longer but the moment she moved I woke her up to preserve BT and day length today. So it looked like this yesterday:

WU- 5.10
A- 4h35
S- 9.45- 11.35
A- 3.5h
S- 3.05-3.35
A- 3h10m
BT- 6.50 no NW's and woke this morning at 7.20

So what do I do today? I don't want to push one nap if she's not really ready, but also just wondering if that was just a CU rather than the norm of how much she needs? What do people think??

[Layla]

With a wake up like that, I would be tempted to just do 1 nap - its been a while since we've been through the transition but we did alternate between 1 and 2 naps.