When to transition from 4 naps to 3?

[MarciaMSPT]

Wondering when to begin the 4-3 nap transition.  My 15 week old DS fights his last two naps and sometimes his last three... they don't last long before he wakes, cries and resettles sometimes 3-5 times within a 45 minute stretch.  He IS resettling but seems he could do without a nap somewhere there...

I'm also afraid that by moving bedtime later, we are only asking for trouble... for the last two weeks, it's take 1-2 hours to get him to finally settle where as before that he was settled in 1-2 minutes!

7 up eat
8:15 down

10:30 up eat
11:45 down

1:30 up eat around 1:45
2:45-3:00 down

4:30 up eat
5:45 down

6:30 up bath
7 eat
7:30ish down

unsettle for the last 2 weeks till 8:30 or 9pm   But sleeps like a log through the night till 7am.

Any thoughts?

[Layla]

If he's starting to fight the last nap, you could probably start moving towards dropping the last catnap. Sometime around 4 months, alot of babies start moving towards 4hr EASY. We started dropping the last catnap around 3-3.5months.

Here is a link to explain how to transition 3-4hr EASY Transition – In 5 Minute Increments
and this link Average A times- BOOKMARK ME! for average A times.

With the transition, if you see that its getting too close to bedtime, rather than pushing for another catnap (the 4th nap), you will need to make bedtime earlier. In fact, when you do transition to 3 naps (2 long and 1 short), you will need to shift bedtime to an earlier hour - I would aim for 7pm bedtime as most LOs do best with 11.5-12hr night.

If he's BF, he may not be able to stretch 4hrs in between feeds and its ok to keep feeds at 3.5hrs.

Let me know if you have any other questions once you've read through the links

[kaynay]

we are in the same boat here...3.5 months and finding the A time are much longer than the 3 hour easy...looks like your A times are a bit low if they can be upped in some of the sections that can get you through to the earlier bedtime without the 4th nap...our issue now is that the last A active time we come too close to bedtime-- like 1 hour 45 mins to bedtime and she is still awake and I dont want to go push her for a cat nap just to wake her in 15 mins...so we have also moved up our bedtime 1 hour...let me know what transpires with you since we are finding our last active way too long now that I think could  be causing nightwakings...the other issue I am having is that the last feed is now a top on and is only 3 oz when other feeds are 5-6oz so when the NWs start I am confused between hunger and OT etc etc...would like to see what happens with your transition maybe something there can help me too...hang in there you are not alone.

[MarciaMSPT]

Thanks all and Kaynay!

We really don't have any problems at night... only putting him down can be rough at times.  His dream feed is only 2-3oz as well at 9:30 and last night at 8:30 since he didn't eat much at his earlier feeding.  He sleeps all night till 7 without a peep.

I'll keep you posted as I'm able.  Stay at home mom means little time to get anything done (for me anyway!)  So, I try to jump on here when I can...

Good to know that I'm not alone... when you feel like you are the only struggling mom on earth, it's a very lonely feeling.  Thanks and hugs!

[Layla]

Big ((hugs)) hon.. you're definitely not the only one . Hopefully in a couple of months once your LO is down to 2 naps, you'll be able to get some Y time... this is when naps started to really lengthen for us. Keep us posted with how you're going

[MarciaMSPT]

Thanks Layla...

I completely fell apart last weekend with my health and postpartum depression issues.  Couldn't bear to be alone.  I now have my parents here and friends are with me when they are gone camping in Brown County   God has been good to provide me everything I have needed before I needed it!

I'm on some depression supplements and am feeling like I'm climbing out of this whole.

I made the serious mistake of letting my LO stay up for 2 hours (from 1.5 hours) at a time between naps... what a mistake... instant 30-45 min naps... fitfill rest for 2-3 hours at night until he was finally deep asleep.

My LO is 14 weeks old and is taking between 25 and 28 oz a day!  He's a big guy... we are waking him about 9 or so for a last top off feed and wonder if we should stop that.  He's on donor breastmilk and has slept soundly through the night for a month now.

But I'm also in the middle of trying to drop that last 5:45ish to 6:15ish cat nap and just moving his bedtime from 7:30ish to 6:30ish... That means his last feeding is around 5 or so.  Not sure if he should/could be going 14 hours without food at 14 weeks old.

Maybe a lot of questions - I've read the 3-4 EASY transition but not sure how that works smoothly... it sure hasn't worked smoothly here.  My DS has a usually 1.5- 2.0 hour morning nap and then we struggle with the rest.  Most difficult thing is putting him down... takes some sleep propping still... but most of it I feel is a sooth to sleep "prop."  Not sure I'm letting him cry long enough (max is 6 min for me - can't help myself when he's trying to resettle ...

Thanks for your thoughts and I look forward to any advice from anyone!   

[MarciaMSPT]

My 14 week old has his best nap in the morning.  It gives us a 3.5-4 hour diff between first and second feedings (first feed at 7, second at 10:30 or 11:00)  After that, seems his wake time starts changing and I can never figure it out.  Usually end up with two 45 min naps and a short 30 min cat nap. 

I get so anxious since I can't figure it out that I feel like I"m floundering.  I posted another place about dropping that cat nap as I did yesterday, but am not sure that will work today.  I'm just very confused and anxious.

I like the EASY on paper but in reality it seems to fall apart... 5 min increments sounds great, but in reality, when my baby doesn't sleep longer 2nd or 3rd naps, it's still only a dream in my mind.  I get so hung up on perfecting it so to speak that before I know it, my LO is saying, "Hey mom, I'm 5 months now - catch up with me!"

This has been very stressful for me.  I'm an older first time mommy of a beautiful adopted baby... argh... love him to pieces but he's doing much better than mommy is!   

[Layla]

If he has a feed at 5pm, you could look at that as a cluster feed and do a final/top up feed right before bedtime. I did the same with dd3

The morning nap was our best too, with the rest of the day either good or bad naps. It all settled down to 2 good naps when we dropped the 3rd nap/catnap at around 5 months. With regards to letting him settle - if he's mantra crying then its ok to leave him. He's just learning how to self soothe. Be careful of going to him too soon or when he's mantra crying as he might start to expect help more and more and not really learn how to self soothe

[Layla]

Marcia,

I've merged the new topic you posted with this one 

Firstly, take a breath and try and relax about the naps. EASY does look very pretty on paper but in reality, not all babies will take long naps (regardless of whether you extend A times or not). My girls never had the perfect EASY because we too were struggling with short naps. Some LOs will naturally take short naps until around 5/6 months so please don't think its anything you're doing wrong, because short naps can be developmental too and it just means that the part of the brain hasn't matured yet... there really isn't much you can do about that!!!

I might have mentioned earlier - our 1st nap was also the 1st one to lengthen and the rest of the day consisted of shorter naps.

Our av A time at this age was somewhere around 1.75-2hrs but my LO was always on the higher A times range.

With regards to being flexible - EASY is ALL about being flexible. It really isn't a strict schedule! It is important to remember that. It's important to remember that all babies are different. The idea is to keep the E away from the S so that your LO isn't falling asleep using E as a prop.

I just have a couple of questions: How does he fall asleep? Does he need to be rocked? bounced? Do you try and put him back to sleep when he wakes early? Is he still swaddled?
Could you please post what your last couple of days looked like?

[Buttonbobs]

Hi Marcia, just popping on to add some support and hugs. I agree with Layla that some LOs just don't take longer naps until they're a little older, I think my E had one nap longer than an hour before she turned 6 months and even then didn't sleep longer than 1.5 hours regularly until she was on one nap.

I got you point where I decided not to worry and to go with the flow a little bit. This was hard for me as I'm a routine kind of girl! But it did help to get out and about and see people more. I'm glad to see you have some support IRL, try to let them help you out a bit so you can get a bit more rest.

Try to focus on one nap in the cot the not worry abut it for the rest of the day, perhaps letting her nap out and about or in a sling at home if this suits you..

Most important of all, go easy on yourself. If you feel like posting a couple of days and a sneering Layla's questions then we can probably help a little more.

Hugs xxx

[MarciaMSPT]

Hi gals...

My little guy screams about 50% of the time when he is one armed swaddled (trying to wean) and then I have to take him to my big therapy ball and bounce him.  The louder the cry, the higher the bounce until I can arrest his cry.  I whisper to him that it's okay and then I hum a song.  I then shift him from vertical to horizontal and he may or may not start humming with me   When his eyes are rolling, I get up and walk into his bedroom where I have another big ball and sit on that singing and slowly bouncing, wondering how it will go when I put him down.  I eventually stop the bounce and pat his bottom a bit.

He sleeps only on his back as he has been swaddled his whole life.  I've put him about a 45 degree angle on his side but I can't tell if that helps or not due to his napping issues at this time.

The sh/pat does not work with him - makes him scream the louder when he wakes.  If I'm going to get him back to sleep, I must start the process over again but have rarely been successful.  Perhaps I don't sh/pat long enough?  I've mostly given up on that... open to thoughts though.

He is usually still swaddled but if not, that is a big issue has he gets his swaddled fist into his mouth and then there is no turning back.  We swaddle him a bit looser at night so he can wiggle out in the night and he still sleeps fine.  Wondering if I should go back to a two arm swaddle for the trouble naps?

Our last best day (two days ago - had a short road trip yesterday - not good

E 7:00 (6:50 up)
A
S 8:10

E 10:30 (plus extra oz at 11:30)  (up at 10:10)
A
S 11:30 - 11:45 trying to soothe to sleep (sleep at 11:45)

E 1:45  (up at 1:00)
A
S 3:00

E 5:15 (up at 4)
A bath and bed
S bed at 6:15  (normal bedtime is 7 or 7:30 - I didn't want to hassle another 30 min catnap with the effort it would take to get him down just for that 30 min nap so didn't do it and put him down earlier this day)

Hope that helps...   I know it's wishy washy... but sometimes I just dont' know where to start to fix things... when he wakes earlier and earlier from naps, it's hard to keep feeds on schedule -before I know it, he's eating right before sleeping - I know I DON'T want that.

Thanks!

DF 9:15

[Layla]

Marcia, so it sounds like he isn't able to self soothe yet. Just curious, if you let him suck his fist, he might learn to soothe himself by doing that. My LO was never swaddled (I just rode out the startle reflex) and she started sucking her fist to self soothe. I would stay with her when she'd wake and gently hold her fist to her mouth (if she was getting frustrated and couldn't control her hand) and by 3 months she had excellent hand control and started bringing her fist (which by then turned into a thumb) to her mouth on her own. If you don't want to do that, you could always try the Aussie swaddle
Swaddling Technique (aka "Aussie swaddle") so this way he can still have access to his hands/fists, which may help him self soothe.

With regards to bouncing - just be careful that it doesn't become a prop. Do you have a windown routine? Perhaps you could incorporate the bouncing as part of your routine but still aim to put him in the cot drowsy but awake so that he finishes putting himself to sleep. What I used to do was put in the cot drowsy but awake and leave the room. If mine would start crying and it was a mantra cry, I would leave her alone. If it was one of those "I need you mummy" cries, I would go back and shh/pat. I used to shh/pat until calm and then leave. If it was more than 20mins of shh/patting, I would pick her up and move on with our day. If she woke early from nap, I would attempt to resettle with shh/pat for 20mins and if that didn't work, I would pick her up and move on with our day. If E wasn't due for a while, I'd give a little more A and then try for a nap again. If E was due then I'd do E and then try for a nap when I'd get tired signs. Even if you have E right before S, there is nothing wrong with that as long as he's not falling to sleep by eating every single time! Our last breastfeed is right before bed and has always been. By about 3 months, mine could put herself to sleep independently but she still wasn't able to put herself to sleep past 45mins for all naps, which is why I say sometimes it is just developmental. She knew how to go to sleep, she knew exactly where her thumb was and how to plug it but putting herself back to sleep was hit or miss. Try not to get too fixated on trying to follow the exact routines you see posted. I attempted morning and afternoon nap in the cot and the rest in the sling.

How long did you shh/pat for? Looking at your EAS, it looks like his A is around 1:20?

[Buttonbobs]

Just seeing all my typos in my previous post - sorry, I hope it made some sense

I agree with Layla that it seems more like a self-soothing thing than just a routine issue and also that he is relying on you bouncing to get to sleep and when he wakes is looking for that again each time. We swaddled DD until she was 9/10 months old and it really worked for her, although she was a very sucky baby so did need a dummy/paci as well. If you do think the swaddling helps, then perhaps try something that allows movement of the arms a little bit. We used a Woombie which allowed DD to move her arms a bit, but not so much that she was knocking her dummy out of her mouth all the time.

Alternatively, if you don't think the swaddle is helping, then perhaps go with a different fold like Layla suggests to enable him to learn to sooth with his hands.

Whatever you choose, if you decide to wean off the prop of bouncing and use a structured wind-down routine and a bit of shh-pat, there will be some crying. It is upsetting but remember that as long as you are with him, he is soothed by you being there and the crying will not break his trust in you. He will not be afraid but really his cry is just him saying ' I want to sleep mummy but I can't'. As he gets more used to shh-pat, the length of time he cries for will reduce.

If you feel he finds shh-pat a bit too stimulating, you could try a variation, e.g. rubbing his back or just holding a hand on his tummy.

Hugs

[MarciaMSPT]

Hi Layla...

I've tried sh/pat multiple times but it only seems to make my LO scream all the more.  He's a back sleeper so unable to pat on the back.  In a crib so unable to my mouth down to his ear. 

I started yesterday trying to be in his room when the 45 min intruder came along and gently hold the unswaddled arm and legs, light to medium pressure on his chest.  It worked great for the first nap but the other two naps he woke at 30 minutes and I was already in his room   I was in his room each time for about an hour and both of the last naps I had to eventually pick him up to get him back to sleep.

I'm afraid the bounce has become an accidental parenting prop.  How do I rid it?  Less and less or just cold turkey?  I'm not sure the mantra cry sound although my little Waylon can sure scream bloody murder - is that the mantra cry? 

I put him down this morning with no swaddle but wrapped nice and warm since it's cool... I feel like I"m just taking stabs in the dark and really don't know what to settle in on. 

OK... just got done seeing him through his intruder transition... worked well even unswaddled.  I'm encouraged...

Layla...i really appreciate knowing how you so easily continue on with your day after 20 min of sh/pat.... and then try again and just fit things in where you need to as far as E and A. 

Waylon's wake time yesterday morning was 1.75 hours (a tad too much) and then about 1.5 hours after that.  I'm focusing on the first nap since that is his best nap and I am assured that he will get his restorative sleep.  I'm praying that the success we have with that nap will bleed over to the other naps but will try not to sweat it.

To answer your question... I haven't sh/patted for more than about 30 seconds before as it seems to anger my LO.  But, I am working on diminishing the bounce and instead, patting his bottom and shushing as necessary while humming to him.  Hoping this will then carry over to his naps when I'm not wanting to pick him up for the bounce but can sh/pat him back to sleep. 

I'm looking for Waylon's rhythm... in other words, I'm trying to watch HIM more than the clock... looking for his signs etc. 

Thank you so much for your help.

Hugs.

[Buttonbobs]

  I am working on diminishing the bounce and instead, patting his bottom and shushing as necessary while humming to him.  Hoping this will then carry over to his naps when I'm not wanting to pick him up for the bounce but can sh/pat him back to sleep. 

I do think this is a good idea, perhaps a bottom pat will be more comforting to your DS - it certainly was for my DD. Can you transfer him to the cot at the point at which he is sleepy but not sound asleep and continue patting his bottom as he dozes off?

You will need to do it for more than 30 seconds or so sweetie - I never tried to resettle for longer than 20 minutes as I knew by then if she was going to go back off to sleep or not. He will cry loudly at first, but if you keep going it will subside. Remember you are changing things for him and it will take time for him to get used to it all.