Re: Do you know why babies wake up ar 5:30am?

[Lilo's mom]

My LO is 4 mo and has started waking at 5... He looks hungry so i feed him, but then when I put him back in his cot he just starts cooing and yelling and practicing speech... Wants his day to begin... How can I put him back to sleep???

[PaulsMom]

Hi there.

How does his day look?  Sometimes ew's are due to hunger but could also be caused by developmental milestones or a routine change. 

[Lilo's mom]

Hi! Usually he wakes up at 8 and goes to bed between 8 and 9 pm (bedtime routine starts at 7, when he sleeps while eating it is 8 pm, if not it can be 9). He usually takes a 40 min nap in the morning and a 1,5 to 2 h nap in the afternoon (this is new, I was struggling hard with short naps until a couple of weeks ago, hopefully This will be mantained). Average A time is 2h.
He has learned to roll and yells all the time, as if he wanted to hear his own voice. He does that during early wakings, could he be wanting to practice?
I had never been able to do DF (he is always too sleepy to drink), but yesterday I decided to give another shot as he was stirring at 11 pm. (i keep thinking that, to solve the EW problem, I need to shift his first waking as forward as I can. He used to do 6 hours between feedings, but since his 3,5 month he doesnt go more than 5 hours, usually 4 in average). So last night he did drink a little but was up again at 1 (which would be 6 hours from the bt feed). I tried to calm him without nursing but eventualky gave up, and nursed at 2 am. He was up again at 6,30, ate and went back to bed.
Would you have fed him at 2 am? Do you think it was the right thing to do? He did nurse well,,,
Thanks!

[PaulsMom]

A lot of 4 mo olds will require a few night feeds.  Around 4 months, sleep gets a bit wonky because Los are much more aware of things.  However with my dd, I would feed her if it had been 3-4 hrs since her last feed and then I'd put her back in her crib. 

Does your DS only have two naps? 

Wrt developmental milestones, they can disrupt sleep.  Rolling was a big issue with my DS and unfortunately at night you just have to roll with it.  During the day, give him lots of time to practice.

[Lilo's mom]

Thanks, Paulsmom! My Lo is a terrible short napper (20 min, usually). There is an extense thread I started about it at naps and I got some precious help and psycological support there. Currently the situation has improved, and usually I can extend at least one of his naps, so I would say he has 2 to 3 naps every day (1 or 2 being catnaps). I cant do better, and honestly accomplishing this is such a struggle! Usually I need to extend using the stroller, but at least he sleeps a little.
My baby always sleep while nursing at his last feed of the day (after Bath). And last night he fell asleep as usual, but I was determined to put him awake in his crib to see if that would improve nw. So I gently woke him, but it took him 1 hr and several interventions (including picking up) while he was settling. Eventually he fell asleep alone. (During nws he often sleeps while nursing, but if he wakes up when i put him down, he always self soothes to sleep). By the time he slept, it was past 9pm, and he woke up at 12:30, 3:30 and 5:45. The last nw I tried not to nurse, at first he didnt seem hungry but in the end he was sucking on my shoulder so I nursed him at 6:30. I put him down awake, he fussed a bit and slept until 9:15.
So my schedule is a mess, and I am so tired. So tired. My God. So I have a few questions: first, would yoi agree that I need to wake him even if he falls asleep while nursing in the last Eof the day? Last night it didnt seem to help... And honestly there are eventual nights in which he wakes up while I am burping him, and in those nights he self soothes to sleep, even if it takes 30 to 45 min, but with no intervention from me. Or do you think that it is enough self soothing practice if I put him down awake during naps and whenever he wakes up alone after the last feed of the day?  Do you see a straightforward connection between the way he sleeps and nws in a particular night?
wrt night wakings, I am almost convinced he IS hungry when he wakes,,, he eats pretty decently during the night, and for a while now he has been eating very little during the day. I came across this article at Kelly mom, that I find is so similar to my situation,,,
http://kellymom.com/parenting/nighttime/4mo-sleep/
what is your opinion? Sorry to ask a lot, all my friends keep saying that their breastfed babies were sleeping through the night by the 3rd month and I dont have any relative close to me to help with experience. His ped tends to minimize the problem and say it is all because I am so stressed. I do agree with this, I am so stressed, but honestly this diagnosis isnt very helpful. So I am on my own. Glad I can count on people who are so great that take their time to read and help. Thank you so much.

[PaulsMom]

Hugs Hun.  This age is tough wrt sleep.  My DS was a horrible sleeper and only napped "well" (really it was just adequate once he was mobile and I could physically tire him out).  Try not to stress too much about naps.  I know that's easier to say than to do. 

It's good that you can extend a nap.  This is what I did with my dd.  around this age she short napped and I'd try to extend her naps or APOP a longer nap (ie. car ride, in stroller, etc).  But by working on extending one nap, she did learn how to transition between sleep cycles on her own.  If your Lo is self soothing for naps or is being placed in his crib "not asleep" that is great.  You are laying a good foundation for independent sleep.  So I'd try to extend my dd's first nap of the day.  If that failed, I'd APOP the next one so she would get one decent nap per day.  Late pm CNs are the bane of my existence!  Really it's the end of the day and I'd try not to get stressed if she didn't nap.  I would try to keep the end of the day low key to try to prevent OS. 

Ok, wrt falling asleep nursing.  I know that some moms will say to not allow this but I think it's a personal decision.  Lets face it, it is comforting and soothing for a baby.  Although you will find moms who say their breast fed Lo STTN from 3 months on, I don't think it's as common as many people say.  I pretty much did night feeds with my dd until she was around 10 months and she was in her own room.  I still feed her before bt and she pretty much passes out on me but she now STTN.  So for her I don't think "nursing to sleep" is a prop... But be aware that feeding to sleep can be a prop if you Lo doesn't know how to self soothe ( which he does know!).

Wrt night feeds, at this age I would do night feeds.  I'd aim for feeds that were at least 3-4 hrs apart at night.  Try to keep in mind that at this age there are lots of gs.  Also, because Los are more aware, they may not feed very well during the day so try to do your DT feeds in a calm environment if at all possible.  Do breast compressions to try to get him to stay interested in a feed during the day. 

HTH

[Lilo's mom]

Thanks again, Paulsmom. Last night he went to bed at 8 and woke  up screaming at 9.45. I had to pick him up a few times, he almost fell asleep on me on all the times but cried when I put him down. Until one of the times he started desperately sucking on his fist. So I decided to try the pacifier (he never took one). To my surprise, it worked. He was quietly sucking it and was off in 10 min.
He woke up again to eat at 1:30 and then at 5. At 5 I tried to give him the paci aagain but I wasnt sure if he was hungry so I fed him. When I put him down, he started sucking his fist, so I gave him the paci and it worked again. So I have a few questions:
1. Is it ok to have him start using a paci at 4,5 mo?
2. I am trying to break the nurse to sleep association. Wont I be replacing one association by another?
3. When the paci is considered a prop?
4. Is it possible to limit paci's use to the crib?
Thank you so much again!

[PaulsMom]

Well that sounds not too bad! 

Wrt a paci, if he takes it and you don't mind giving it, then I don't see a problem starting to use it.  Paci's can become a prop if they need it to fall asleep or transition between sleep cycles.  But it can be a great comfort item for babies.  Also once a bub knows how to replug himself then its considered to be a comfort item as they have control over it. 

For my DS, we mostly limited his use of the paci to the crib.  I kept a small stash of them in his crib until we had to wean it. 

You can also introduce a lovey or a blanket (some moms use a muslin cloth so it's breathable).  They types of items can offer a lot of comfort and usually not become a prop. 

[Lilo's mom]

Well, unfortunately he only  took the paci that day I wrote.... I tried every single day after that, but he just spits it or removes with his hands. He cant suck his thumb either; rather, he sucks his fists and that seems to get him more excited (i think because he doesnt manage to relieve his sucking need with that.
So I am trying to introduce a lovey. First attempt was a little blancket. He sucks desperately that blanket too, and sometimes "forgets" it over his face and cries because he doesnt know how to take it. I then offered a little pillow, whuch he also tries to suck. In both cases it doesnt seem to calm him as he cant suck them, and in both cases he grabs it and rolls from one side to other. So I dont know what to do to calm him down during nw, it is taking an awfully long time to settle him. I know a lovey is a good idea because when I give my hand he just holds it and plays with it until he settles. Do you have any tips on how to introduce a lovey? Tonight it took him more than 2h to resettle after the 4 am nw...
Thanks!!!

[PaulsMom]

With my DS, I bought him two lovies. I slept with them so they had my scent on them.  We started off cuddling them during wind down and I made sure he could grab them when he was going to sleep.   With my dd, she took to a crochet blanket when she was young.  Now I give it to her when she's going to sleep and she cuddles it.  I've been lucky to have several so she has one for daycare and several at home so she has one when they are being washed. 

I have also heard of moms introducing lovies when feeding as well as during wind down.  That might help as well.

[Lilo's mom]

Thanks again! You know, his nws are odd: he starts fussing and I just watch from the monitor. He has his eyes wide open, and starts rolling from one side to the other. He grabs his feet, tries to suck his fingers,sucks his fists... He can do that for a very long time without crying. Last night he startrd that at 3,20 and I didnt go to him before 3,50, when I decided to check on his diaper. Nothing. So ?i fed him, put him down and he was doing all that again until 4,50. He then started a light cry, I put my hands on him and he slept ho,ding it by 5,10. Now my question. What do you do if lo is wide awake during nws but does not complain? Just let him be indefinitely or should I try to help him soothe? How long should I wait?
When these looong nw happen, I always let him sleep a bit late... Usually his bt is 8 and wu at 8 am, but today for instance We started the day at 8,30.
He knows how to fall asleep on his own, but that is not very consistent. If I put him down when he is drowsy, he sleeps alone in 2 min; but if he is more awake it can take him a while (and usually he cries).
What is going on??? He will be 5 mo next week.
Thanks!

[PaulsMom]

If he's awake at night but not crying, I'd leave him be.  Try not to intervene unless he's crying since he may settle himself and the more often he does that, the better. 

What does your routine look like?  If he's wide awake but not fussing at night, he may need more A time.

[Lilo's mom]

Usually we start the day at 8 am. I wait for his cues to put him down for naps, and in the morning it takes about 2h for him to want to sleep. His nap can last anything from 25 min to 2h, but most of the tines is between 30 to 40 min. He then starts showing signs he wants to sleep again after 2,5 h. So in average:
Wu and E: 8
S: 10 to 10:30
S: 1 pm to 3 pm (i always work to extend this nap if the first was short)
S: 5:30 pm to 6 pm ( not always, depending on the time he wakes up from the previous map)
Bath 7, E 7:30, Bt 8

Could it be due to OT? The problem is that it is impossible for me to put him down for naps before these average times - he simply doesnt accept goimg to sleep and fights to the point that it takes 40 min wind down for him to get a 25 min nap.

Thanks for your help ,!!!

[PaulsMom]

Hmmmm.... His As are long for his age (average As is 1 hr 45 to 2 hrs) so I agree, he may be OT.  What developmental milestones is he working on?

My DS used to fight sleeping (actually he still does) but I found that physical activity helped but I also had to be careful to avoid OS and OT.  He might be more ready to accept sleep if he's physically tired. 

[Lilo's mom]

Hello!
I am back to this board, and I just changed the subject but kept all the thread in which you've helped me with nw. LO is 5,5 mo now and our routine is much more consistent these days: he sleeps every 2,5 h after waking up, usually one 40 min nap in the morning, one 2 hr nap in the afternoon plus a 30 min nap at 5. Bedtime is 8, and I aim to start the day at 8.
For the past several nights, he didn't wake up in 12 hours in one or 2 nights , and all the others he would wake up at 3, 4 or 5 and stay 2 hours awake. He stays "singing", moving, and only complains if his foot gets stuck in the crib. For the past couple of nights, he has learned to turn on his tummy, but still hasn't learned to roll back. So he rolls to his tummy often, and stay there singing and babbling for a while, without complaining. When he starts feeling sleepy again, he complains and sometimes cry (he cried tonight), and then I go in and help.
Why do you think this happen? Honestly I don't think it's overtiredness... I give him opportunity to sleep every time he feels sleepy. He only shows OT signs before bedtime...
Thanks!
Mariana

[Skadiver13]

Hi Mariana, Congrats on the sleep through that's GREAT. I think your routine looks good but could you put it in EAS format it makes it easier to look at.  As for the rolling over that's a developmental thing. If you can give him as much practice during the day that always helps. Let him practice in the crib and on the floor. Is he swaddled when he rolls over? If not and he's just in a sleep sack etc. Let him try and work it out before you go in. If he's just whining, or mantra crying let him go because he may decide he likes it on his tummy but if he gets used to you rolling him back over he'll want you each time he wakes up like that.

[Lilo's mom]

Thanks for your reply!
How the day looks today (mostly):
8 - WU and BF + formula
10:30  to 11:10: nap
11:10 - BF + formula
1:30  to 3:30: nap
3:30: BF + formula
5:30: formula
5:30 - 6: nap (sometimes he misses this one)
7: bath
7:30: BF + formula
8: bedtime

Not exactly like this, but mostly. Sometimes he takes a longer nap in the morning, sometimes he takes 1hr naps the whole day... But essencialy, that's it.
I give him plenty of time before I go in... I am just afraid of leaving him on his tummy if he doesn't know how to roll back. I mean, lately he's having reflux, so I get paranoid imagining him spitting up and not being able to roll back over. But this morning, for instance, he rolled to his tummy and fell asleep (so cute!), so after about 30 min he was asleep his dad went in and turned him back without him waking up.
I am really puzzled as to why he spends so much time awake in the night... He has learned to roll on his tummy three days ago, and he's been doing that for 2 weeks now...
tHANKS for yoiur help!

Mariana

[Skadiver13]

Hi Mariana, on days he misses the CN are you putting him to bed earlier? That's a very long time from 3:30-8 for a 5 month old and the wakings could be because of being OT at bedtime?

As for tummy sleeping. It's a personal choice.  I know the recommendation is on the back.  From my personal experience my severe refluxed preferred to sleep on his tummy so when he could roll and roll back I just let him.  It's up to you whether you roll him back while he is sleeping but if he's not fussing on his tummy while he's awake I would just let him be, and lots of practice rolling back during the day.

[Lilo's mom]

Yes, when he misses the catnap he goes to bed earlier, but I coulnt find any relation between not having the catnap and waking up alert in the middle of the night.
Look at what happened yesterday :
Wu 8
Nap 10:50 to 11:25
Nap 1:00 to 1:20, extended and got more 40 min until 3 pm
Nap 5:20 to 5:50
Bt 8:15
He slept through until 6 am, without waking to fuss.  At 6, he woke up because he was sleeping on his tummy and we decided to roll him- so he wake up. I fed him, put him back on his cot and he was there  quiet but not asleep until 7:15, when I started the day today.
So I was thinking. He had, in total, 12 hours of sleep yesterday. Maybe this is as much as he needs? Maybe if he sleeps more during the day he wakes up alert in the middle of the night because he is ut?
Not sure... Today he took 4 naps, 3x 30 min and 1x1h. So let's see how much time he needs tonight...
Any thoughts?
Thanks

[Lilo's mom]

Tonight he slept until 3,45, when I woke up, saw he was in his tummy and decided to roll him. He woke up so I fed him and put him down. He fussed a bit, turned on his tummy again, DH turned him again, and then he slept. So I am thinking my UT theory makes sense... What do you think?
Thanks!

[Skadiver13]

For the rolling, I think the recommendations depend on where you live in the world, and your comfort level.  Just confirming that he's not swaddled correct? You have two choices, you can ether leave him be on his tummy and let him sleep (my doc said once he could roll on his tummy to leave him be), or you can roll him back over but if he wakes you'll need to resettle him in the crib don't pick him up or feed him because then he may beging to expect that feed and start waking at that time every night.

Did he wake on his own at all last night or just when you rolled him? Typically Lo's his age need a total of 14-16hrs a day. Usually 2-3hrs of naps and 10.5-12hrs at night.