Is 4oz a feed for almost 4 month old at night?

[kaynay]

Hello-
We are 4 mo old this week.
Are on a good 3 1/2 - 4 hour routine with 2 long naps under 2 hours and 1 cat nap end of day. Awake times are about 1 hour 45 mins and some are 2 hours.
4 day feeds-- morning feed is breast feed , 2 feeds are expressed breastmilk she takes 6-8oz a feed and 1 feed is formula , some days since I am trying to save some milk since I go back to work this week and that feed is about 7 oz.
Sound good for the day right?
Bedtime is about 730 and wake time is about the same (usually a 11-12 hour night).
My question is nightfeeds.
Is 2 night feeds  normal at this age? If so that means I am not getting longer than a 4 hour stretch at night since she wakes around 1130 and 2-3am, so I feed her since she goes right back to sleep.
I experimented with the first night feed in a bottle since I usually nurse and consistently she takes 4oz and wont take more and is dead asleep after.
Since she takes more in the day is 4oz in a bottle of expressed bm a feed in the night?
She used to do 5-7 hour stretches consistently then at the 3 month mark stopped so all the 3rd month we have worked to extend her day feeds which has helped her day routine for sure but why isnt it helping her night routine?
We do not dreamfeed and she doesnt take a pacy, she is swaddled in a sleep bag has access to her hands but cant escape the hands to the mouth out of the bag.
Should we wean her from the sleep bag let her arms out so she can self soothe?
I am trying to get a long stretch in at this age and I go back to work this week.
Any suggestions?
Does this all sound normal?
Going back to work is stressing me out.

[Layla]

(((hugs)))

Six feeds in 24hrs is about right and my LO was waking anywhere from 0-2 times at night at 4 months and I have only recently noticed she will either not wake at all or will wake just once. I breastfeed so I am not sure how much she's taking but she takes it and doesn't use the breast as a prop and she actively sucks so I know its hunger. Her wake up times are also very random and last night she slept from 6.30pm-2am and then slept till 6am and the night before she slept from 6.30-5am and then after a feed slept till 6.30am. Three nights ago she slept without waking at all.

So to answer your question, I think for a 4mo, 2 night feeds are perfectly fine! I follow the same rule of thumb as day feeds - so when J was on 3hr feeds, if she woke at around the same mark at night, I used to feed her and when she was on 4hr feeds (which only started happening when we dropped the catnap around 5 months), if she would wake around 4+hrs, I would feed her.

With regards to the swaddle - how does she self soothe during the day? Sometimes babies start to want more freedom around this age and it might be that she doesn't like being in a swaddle anymore. I don't have any BTDT advice for weaning the swaddle as I never swaddled but I've attached a link that may give you some ideas. Paci or Swaddle Weaning Success Stories Here

Also with regards to feeds during the day, are you cluster feeding? I used to do a feed right after catnap (say it ended at 5pm) and then do bath, bedtime routine and final feed (top up feed) around 6.30pm with 7pm bedtime. You could try doing that to see if it will help.

With regards to sleeping longer stretches before - what was her bedtime hour back then? Lots of babies go to bed a lot later and start to have an earlier bedtime when the 4th nap/catnap is gone and so the baby is going to sleep earlier and possibly why needs an extra feed at night?

[kaynay]

hi thanks....she wakes at about the 4 hour mark the first feed for instance if she goes to bed at 745 she had a bottle at 715 even up to 8oz...she would wake around 11 feed then wakes anytime between 2 and 4...once in a while she will just do 1 night feed...but the 2nd night feed is usually just 3 hours after the first.
I am not cluster feeding anymore cuz she would take just 4oz instead of 6-8 and barely 2 oz before bed and that caused very early waking like before 11pm which sets up the night not so good...she self soothes during play time by sucking her hands but for nap she goes right down easy with her hands near her chin in the woombie sleep sack so she isnt really technically swaddled she just cant have her arms out but she can have them together in the woombie if she wants them.
her bedtime has  been the same since birth always between 715 and 745 so back then she slept longer...she was 10 pds at birth so do bigger babies need more food or less food I am confused on that.
it seems weird with her taking 7 oz each feed to have 4 oz in the night feed and then a second time although I only do 1 bottle for night feed for the second night feeding I nurse to keep milk up and help engorgement.
with the 4th catnap dropped she still has the same bedtime maybe 15 min earlier or her feed 15/ 30 min earlier than before but that is it...she eats and goes right back to sleep but only taking 4oz is that considered a "feeding" or a "snack" when her day feeds are larger?

[Layla]

Again, not sure on oz's as i didn't count (couldn't as breast feeding) but I just fed and put back to bed. I just checked google and 4oz still seems like a reasonable amount so I would think she's waking up hungry, even if its not as much as what she takes during the day. If you think she doesn't need it and could do without it, then you could try reducing how much you give her and maybe she will start to take even more in during the day. Most babies take the majority of their feeds during the day. For example, my LO will only take 1 side at night and during the day she takes both.

I have attached a link "How do I implement/drop the dreamfeed?" and although this link discusses how to drop the DF, you could use it as a guide to drop the 1st night feed (feed less and add more during the day). Just be careful because there is a growth spurt at 4 months so as I said earlier, she may genuinely be hungry and although she's not taking as much as she usually does during the day, 4oz imo is still a decent amount.

You could also try the Gentle Removal Plan:
PANTLEY'S GENTLE REMOVAL PLAN

[kaynay]

thanks you were one step ahead of me with which feed to work on eliminating and it would be the first one...between the 4 feeds in the day the 3 bottle feeds add up to 20-22 oz and the morning breast feed is a few ozs so let's say between the first 4 feeds of the day she gets 24-27 oz...is that enough for the day cuz if we add 4 oz from a night feed plus another bf she is over 30oz a day seems like a lot?
She was 10pds at birth so she is around 16 pounds now...I hear mixed things that bigger babies should sleep longer and bigger  babies need more to eat...what do you think?
how old was your LO when doing 0-2 night feeds as you mentioned?
my LO goes down independently she is in a Woombie sleep sack but I put her down wide awake and shut off the lights and she is down so she has not sleep to eat association. I am reading a lot about the way your LO goes down for the night is the way they stay down but in our case no if 2 feeds are normal I hear that...also she takes big bottles 7-8 oz I dont want do but does that mean solids will start sooner for her if those dont sustain her in the next month or so? I cant imagine giving her more than 8oz in a bottle 3 times a day plus a morning bf and 2 night feeds. Thoughts?

[PaulsMom]

Hugs Hun.  It's so hard to tell sometime whether a feed is habit or needed in the MOTN.  Usually of they eat and then go right back to sleep afterwards it is usually due to hunger.  My concern with dropping feeds prematurely is that you end up being up longer at night trying to settle them than if you had fed her.  i suppose you could try and drop a feed and see what happens.   then decide if you want to continue with the nfs (perhaps try on a weekend night if your OH can let you sleep in . 

A lot of people say that at this age the nfs are better than the DT feeds probably because at this age babies get so distracted during the day.  In your case, since you have pushed the time between feeds, she maybe a bit extra hungry during the day, but is ok with this since there is so much to do during the day!  But at night, she may be waking due to hunger but isn't soooo hungry when she wakes so is taking less than during the day.  Since there are no other distractions at night, she's waking earlier than expected based on the 4 hr easy during the day. 

Keep in mind that babies grow when they sleep so it is normal to give them one or two feeds at night at this age.  Also, I don't know if there is a perfect rule about a larger baby STTN earlier than a small baby.  Babies will STTN when they are developmentally ready to do so. 

HTH

[*Ali*]

19-30oz is the normal range for Breast milk over 24hrs. 25oz is the average. http://kellymom.com/bf/pumpingmoms/pumping/milkcalc/ You need to allow for variation though and as you say your LO is big he is bound to be on the high end.  You don't need to worry about eating too many ounces of breast milk though as it is all good stuff. It is not the same as over feeding on formula. So his intake sounds about right. Mine also did double sided feeding in the day and just one side at night.

Have you considered doing a DF before  you got bed so she doesn't disturb you at 11.30pm? It may also mean she doesn't get so used to waking and asking to be fed.

Bigger babies tend to need more food overall just like a bigger adult would have higher energy needs. Some people argue they may have larger tummies and therefore can take larger quantities less frequently but as with everything all babies vary and breast milk is still digested within 2hrs.

[kaynay]

thank you both...i will keep with the NFs and check back after 7 months after solids and see if we are still in the same boat...you both set me at ease...so i go back to work and will just plan for these NFs and if i have to go to bed at 8 when my other kids go to bed so bet it for a while so i get more rest and thus keep making milk without stress. hugs

[*Ali*]

NFs are great for supply due to higher hormone levels at night so if you are at work and struggling to keep supply up they will really help.

[kaynay]

yes very good point on the supply...we will keep on keepin on then. thank you!

[kaynay]

ladies i come back to you again...i hate to write this but so far so good on the day time...2 naps under 2 hours and 1 30 min cat nap with a 12 hour day.
she was taking huge bottles month 3 and as of last week 6-7-8 oz bottles...we are feeding every 4 hours on the clock and now she is taking 4.5-5 oz ...she acts hungry at 4 hr mark we feed her and she is taking almost half what she was taking the past few weeks.
she is 4 mos 1 week old.
at 4 hour easy at this age 4 hour is the max time to feed? i am BFing and pumping milk since i am back at work.
last night we had an ok stretch about 5 hours then wake to eat then awake every hour and half after that...i feed the 2nd time and the 3rd nw i gave a pacy and i havent been using a pacy actually hardly at all.
she is soaking her shirts all day wet wet wet wtih droll, teeth this young?
she is in the wombie sleep sack does she want her fingers?
what to do?
teeting reduces appetite?
help i am back at work and not sleeping past 1:30 im pretty much up every after that until my other kids wake up at 6 am NO FUN! HELP!

[PaulsMom]

Hugs Hun.  Teething can impact on their appetite or how much they are feeding.  For some babies, sucking will cause them some discomfort so she may not be eating as much as a result.  4 months old is not too young for teething.  Both of mine had teeth in at 5 months and def the teeth are moving around in the gums before that, which can be quite painful.  You can try teething gels or powders or if you are comfortable, try pain medication.  Some moms use the amber necklaces which would be fine during the day.

HTH

[*Ali*]

I definitely wouldn't feed less often that every 4hrs because you won't be able to fit in 4 feeds.

As pp says it could be teething but it is more likely that her saliva glands just kicked in as they do in all babies around 4mo.

My Ds2 used to suck his fingers out the neck hole of the Woombie. Can she do that?

Are you BFing at the NF or giving a bottle?

[kaynay]

i am leaving the woombie not zipped all the way to the top so she can fit her fingers up there...for MOTN feeds i BF its easier that way and keeps my supply up...I am so used to her just waking to feed and go back to sleep that when these in between feed waking occur I am amiss because I am SOOO tired , working full time and have 2 other kids under 6 yrs old...when and how did you get out of the woombie?

yes those saliva glads are intense and happening for sure...I also noticed that she is getting distracted really easy during feedings so we had ok feedings yesterday but had to keep her blinds drawn and cover her eyes otherwise she bobs on and off the breast to look around and if a bottle she wants to just have eye contact and flirt ---so that is another thing going on distraction.