Author Topic: Need to increase daytime calories - 8 mo old  (Read 2045 times)

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Offline Sam-n-Max's Mommy

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Need to increase daytime calories - 8 mo old
« on: October 27, 2013, 10:49:28 am »
Hello,

DS is almost 8 months old.  He still feeds 2x per night :(.  The 10-12pm bottle is generally his largest of the day 6-7oz.  He gets a "snack" in the middle of the night of 3oz (which is the result of having trying to scale the feed back, but we are stuck there).  I think I need to wean at least one of these feeds because it seems to be causing problems with his sleep.  With that said, he obviously takes in a lot of formula at night, so I need to shift those calories to the day. 

I'm wondering how much solids he should be eating and if I should do something differently to try to get him to eat more during the day.  This is what our eating schedule looks like:

WU 5:30/5:45 :( -- he doesn't eat here because he's eating in the MOTN
E - 7:30 - 3-4oz, solids
A
S
E - 11:30/12, 4-6oz, solids
A
S
E - 4, 2-4 oz,
A
E - 5, solids
A
E - 7:00, 4-6 oz

Then the fun begins.
NF1 - anywhere between 10-12, 6-7 oz (this was never a DF he has always gotten up for this feed)
NF2 - anywhere between 2-4, 3 oz (I had started weaning this feed awhile ago, but never got past 3 oz because he protested at 2oz).

Not including the night feeds, if you look at WU to BT, he is usually getting about 16-19oz.  I know he needs more in a 24 hour period, and he is getting that...just not at optimal times  :-\

He usually loves his solids, but I'm not sure how much I should be giving him -- is there a guideline for how many tbsps a day for this age? I think the formula rec is 20-24oz. 

Should I be spacing things differently? I also want to move his BT up and I am afraid he won't take as much at BT if I start feeding him earlier and he has that 4 and 5pm feeding.

What do you think? Thanks!
   
--Nicole
(formerly samsmommy3312010)

Offline creations

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Re: Need to increase daytime calories - 8 mo old
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2013, 11:31:43 am »
Hi
It looks like you're giving milk and solids at the same time (7.30, 11.30) is that right?  This could mean he is not taking as much milk as he could if you moved the solids to an hour later making him more ready for both milk and solids.  I would
- wean the 3am feed rapidly
- give the morning milk earlier (offer, he might not take until the 3am feed is gone but that will go soon), 6 or 7am
- give breakfast a little later, 1 hr after milk, 7 or 8am
- split the mid morning milk and solids 10 or 11am for milk, 11 or 12 for solids lunch
- offer an afternoon milk in a sippy around 2pm with a small snack (a cracker or a small piece of fruit finger foods)
- this should allow you to bring the BT milk earlier (6pm?)
- keep the 10pm feed for a short while as you establish the day routine and drop the 3am feed then wean this so the calories can move to the day.

I've given rough times because I don't know if you are at home or have to leave the house in the morning etc.  But your day might look like this:
wu 5.45
e milk 6.00
e solids breakfast 7.00
e milk 10.00
e solids 11.00 lunch
e milk in sippy with snack 2.00
e solids 4.00 dinner
e milk 6.00
BT
NF 10 until weaned

I wouldn't go by a certain number of spoons of solids per meal, rather I would look at getting the milk intake in the day and an hour gap between milk and solids, then feed solids to LOs fill (so long as milk intake is good).  It's a good time to introduce finger foods if you haven't already, after or alongside the puree or for snacks and dinner offer finger foods.

The 3am feed.  I would rapidly wean. You can do it by reducing the milk in the bottle by 1 oz and take a second bottle with just water for if LO drains the milk and won't settle without another drink.  After 3 days reduce by another oz and again offer water if wanted.  After 3 days offer water only if he wakes.  At the same time, ie from day 1 of the wean offer morning milk earlier (6am), if he won't take it that early offer half an hour or hour later (6.30 or 7am) don't give solids until 7.30 or 8am breakfast.  He may not take milk at all in the first few days, it can take several days even a week of dropping calories in the night before picking up calories in the day happens, he will not starve, he will work out that the food is being offered and will take it when he decides he needs it.  Even if he 'never' picks up that morning milk there are plenty of other times in the day he is offered food to pick up the calories he needs so don't panic (or you'll never drop those night feeds).

The 3am feed will be gone in less than 2 wks.
Then begin to wean the 10pm feed in the same way with one additional 'rule'.  If he doesn't drain the milk (however much is in it) then see how much he took, that is the max you offer the following night, plus continue to drop 1oz every 3 nights.  In around 2wks this feed will be gone and all calories will be taken in the day.  With day milk feeds ensure there is an oz left in the bottle at each feed so he never drains the bottle (unless you begin to think he is taking way too much - unlikely).  I would think that once he settles into this routine his milk intake will be within the acceptable guides.  You can keep a check on it but remember it is guidance.

There are other ways of dropping night feeds if this way doesn't appeal to you.  Cold turkey on that 3am feed for instance would be fast, use shush/pat to resettle. But I've never been a fan of cold turkey myself. It can be gone soon enough and pain free with a gentle wean over a week or two.

hth


Offline twogirlsmommy

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Re: Need to increase daytime calories - 8 mo old
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2013, 19:16:51 pm »
Hi Nicole!  I have no idea if this would help and since dd2 is sick right now and eating 2 times a night I won't give you our schedule right now but I can give you what we've been doing since we started solids.  I will preface this by saying dd2 is about 22 lbs right now so not a small girl.  Before she got sick and the night feeds started our day looked like this.

Awake anytime between 6 and 7:30 (if not up by 7:30 I wake her)
* Normally she has a bottle when she wakes up unless she had a nw in the 4-5 am area b/c I would have given her a full feed then.  If that's the case then I give breakfast when waking and give the first bottle of the day 4 hrs after the last night feed*

Breakfast is usually around 8 as we need to get dd1 to school by 8:30.
Bottle anywhere between 11 and 11:30
Lunch: 12:30
Bottle:anywhere between 3 and 4
Dinner: 4:30/5 (depending on when bottle was given)
Bedtime bottle is usually around 6/6:30 right now.

I make my own baby food right now and so she gets anywhere between 3-4 cubes of solids per meal which equals 6-8 tblspoons.  My ped wanted me to up her food before her formula b/c she is taking 4-5 8 ounce bottles a day and he thought it might be a bit much lol.  We are starting to give her bits and pieces of real food so today she only had 2 cubes of puree for lunch and breakfast but had some finger foods with it.

((Hugs))



Offline goldmom

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Re: Need to increase daytime calories - 8 mo old
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2013, 01:15:53 am »
We've weaned the second night feed starting about 3 or so weeks ago. We did it somewhat cold turkey, but only after testing it out to see if she could go with a little less at that time (I nurse so it's hard to see exactly how much she takes, but I stopped her second night nursing session earlier for a few days before stopping it completely). At that time it did seem like she was eating a lot at night (her best) since she's such a quick eater during the day and wasn't distracted at night. We have also been increasing her solids at the same time and started giving her protein for dinner too (she loves chicken, beans etc A LOT!). I still wish to stop the first NW, but I don't think we're ready for it yet.

It took about 2 weeks to stop it. The first day about 10-20 minutes, the second much much longer (she wasn't crying from hunger, but just couldn't resettle to sleep for a long time), the third night 10-20 minutes, after that it was mostly easy to resettle when she woke up, but we had a few nights where she skipped her first NF and only had her NF at the usual second waking. We also had a few days of earlier wake ups from it (assuming hunger, but I try not to feed after 5:30 and wait for 6:30, had to AP in my bed for the last 45 min of the night or so). After a few days she did just go back to sleep after a few pats without eating. There was one additional night about a week into it that took close to an hour to resettle also (again, not crying, but not resettling to sleep).

She also got sick for 2 nights where she absolutely needed to be fed that second NW, which I could tell within 3 minutes of trying to resettle (if I know I'm going to feed I try not to wait too long, but I do first try to resettle just in case, and also because I think it helps her not to keep waking at this time if she doesn't really need to eat).

But right now, she is doing pretty good with not waking for that second NW time. We've been having some EW's which may still be hunger related, I'm not sure if it's that or her schedule/napping issues that we've been having.

DD loves solids, but since we nurse mostly (takes 2 bottles during the day) it's hard to gage her exact intake. She is only 16 lbs now, but growing nicely on her curve.

Offline Sam-n-Max's Mommy

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Re: Need to increase daytime calories - 8 mo old
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2013, 00:20:02 am »
Ahhhh, ladies, thank you SO much for all of the advice.

creations - I think reducing the oz is the way to go for M -- I don't think he would take kindly to cold turkey! So once we are down to 1 oz, after 3 days, if he wakes for the NF, do I just give him water? Or will he just naturally stop waking because he's not interested in getting the water?  (btw, bringing in another bottle of water during the weaning process is genius). 
You mentioned offering a sippy cup -- I will probably do this before his afternoon nap.  He doesn't use one yet, but I guess if he is thirsty, he will learn! I have tried the sippy with him a few times and he seems to just like to chew on it, but I think that he gets that something comes out when he puts it in his mouth.  Also, re finger foods -- I have just started trying to give him things like cheerios, puffs, and finely diced soft fruit.  He is having a hard time with it -- he tends to gag.  If I remember with DS1, he had no problems with finger foods at all and was able to eat Cheerios and pieces of avocado on the first try.  Is this something to worry about, or after a few weeks should he adjust?

tgm - hi! I hope dd2 is feeling better! I like your schedule.  It's very similar to what creations has suggested.  If your BT bottle is 6/6:30, how far in advance of BT is that? I've currently been feeding M right before bed (he doesn't fall asleep on the bottle, but I wonder sometimes if eating and sleeping are too close together and he has a eat-sleep association, not that he needs it to fall asleep, but associates the two and that's why he wakes to eat iykwim?)

goldmom - I feel your pain on the long NWs.  M is typically very hard to resettle.  Sometimes he doesn't even resettle after eating, which is why I think it is time to cut them out.  I actually think they may cause him to wake more.  He is a reflux baby, and while it seems to be under control now, I think so many months of eating big feeds in the middle of the night (because he was relaxed) have become so habitual. 
DS1 used to have EWs due to hunger and when I fed him, he went back to sleep until 7 or 7:30 which was heaven.  I can't believe I was so eager to cut that feeding out -- now, if M would sleep a decent chunk at night I'd be happy! LOL.  We are getting EWs now that are not related to hunger as he wakes at 5:40/5:45 every morning and this is after having a feed around 3.  Even if he waits to wake up until 4, it's a 5:45 WU.  Ugh

Thank you so much, ladies, for your help.  I tried spacing the bottles and solids out more today and it seemed to be better.  Tonight will be night 2 of weaning the MOTN feed. 

--Nicole
(formerly samsmommy3312010)

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Re: Need to increase daytime calories - 8 mo old
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2013, 01:21:31 am »
She eats, we change diaper put Jammie's on, read short picture book, sing a song and then into bed she goes. It's the only feed that is that close to bed.



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Re: Need to increase daytime calories - 8 mo old
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2013, 08:20:10 am »
So once we are down to 1 oz, after 3 days, if he wakes for the NF, do I just give him water? Or will he just naturally stop waking because he's not interested in getting the water?  (
There's a chance that he will stop waking for that feed before you stop offering it, if he stirs but doesn't fully wake don't jump in too soon with the bottle.  But yes, if you get down to 1oz of milk then on day 3 of 1oz stop offering milk and only offer water.  This should be a pain free (tear free) process for all, but do stay strong if you don't see the day calories increase immediately. It will take a few days for him to start taking more in the day.

Sippy cup - Tracy's method is to teach them how to use it rather than hope they figure it out. Sit him on your knee facing out and put his hands on the cup with your hands over the top, then lift it to his mouth.  Slowly, and respectfully, telling him what’s happening etc.  It can help otherwise it's just a big teether that is sometimes wet.  I put my tea/coffee in a sippy for a few days when DS was young, they love to mimic Mummy and this makes it blatantly obvious how to use the sippy cup (which might otherwise not be seen as the same as Mummy's cup)

Finger foods - I would start off with much bigger pieces, the size of an adult finger. Batons and wedges of steamed or baked/roasted veg are great. The piece is large enough to be grasped in a fist (pincer grip is harder, no problem practising pincer grip but not all foods need to be small) and keep part exposed out the top of the fist to be eaten.  Things like a banana I would give a third or half banana so he has a large piece to hold on to (but will eat a small amount) rather than chunks.  Toast in strips/soldiers.  It tends to be safer with these large piece because they can keep hold of them and once they get the food to their mouth are more likely to be able to manipulate it.  Very small pieces are hard to get to the mouth and once there and popped in they can't hold on to anything to bring it back out if wanted.  Gagging is fine remember, not the same as choking, LO's gag reflex is further forward than an adult's which helps protect the airway.
I don't think you need worry about the finger foods (worry is never good!), but keep offering them. If you have a meal at the same time he will see how you eat, again they love to mimic, give him something you have for dinner rather than something different, this also teaches him the tastes and textures of family meals.

Sorry - must dash now, think I answered your questions, but do ask again if I missed something or you have more questions. x