Gro clock, EWs and a nearly 4 year old

[Shiv52]

LOL that is what I meant Ali.reward charts only work if you have their buy in YK?  So I could offer R a sticker for every night that she doesn't visit me at 3am (she wouldn't have any!!!!) but it wouldn't work because she'd prefer to be in my bed than get a sticker. So to break the habit I'd have to be offering something pretty exciting to get her to think twice.

So with O it is most likely as you say now a prop and a habit. If you want to tackle it I do think you are going to need to be very strict. I'd do what Ali suggests. I'd say the rule has changed. If he wakes in the night he has not to get out of bed but call you. The rule is stay in bed until the sun comes on. End of. You could leave a few small toys/books at the bottom that he can play with IN bed if he wakes but emphasise he has not to get out of bed. Then if he does call go to his door and ask what it is and then just have the same line 'night time still, go to sleep'. So much less engagement and by staying in bed he'll not be waking himself up as much and will likely get back to sleep easier.

I think Anna mentioned before she was able to get to the point she could just shout from bed 'night time, back to sleep'.

Have you talked to him about what to do if he wakes?  It seems he wakes and his go to is to go to you guys. Maybe help him create a new routine. So stretch and snuggle with teddy and turn over and close eyes and go back to sleep.

Is there anything that truly motivates him?   That he could be offered in the morning if he stays in bed. TBH though I think he a while to go before he'll do that so it will likely just take a few weeks of establishing rules and sticking to them. 

Hugs. I need to sort R so ill see how you get on with O before I start!!!

[anna*]

I'd really cut the chat in the middle of the time. Basically do silent return, so the first couple of times you might say, "Moon is on the clock, it's sleep time". After that just say nothing and return him to his bed. Overand over and over again.

WRT rewards, someone told me that with sleep in particular, rewards work best when they are immediate. So for example the 'Sleep Elves' have told mummy that they will bring a little (sweetie of some kind) to little boys who stay in their bed until morning. So the reward comes immediately once it's morning, rather than having to wait a week.

[*Ali*]

Yeah mine wouldn't wait a week I don't think. We have never done a reward chart but just this last month the boys have started going to bed together in the same room and they were mucking around jumping on the other one in bed and pulling the quilt off the other one etc. DH has introduced a magic carpet ride the next day for anyone who doesn't get out of bed to play after lights out. He basically holds the four corners of their quilt, two corners in each hand and they lie in the middle of it all bundled up and he swings them around the room doing sound effects and then crash lands on their bed. They love it and after only one night of Cadan not getting a go (because he twice got up and tipped the easel over and broke it the night before) he now goes to bed nicely and asks for the ride the next day.

[Buntybear]

  I did wonder why Shiv was asking what a reward chart was for!!

He gets a sticker and a chocolate coin in the morning and then after 8 stickers he gets toy. He choose it and he's knows it is here waiting for him.

Great ideas about changing the rules. I will suggest to DH that we move the clock back at 6am and say he has to stay in bed. Can he have his light on and play/read but in bed?

'Think' he has STTN the last couple of nights but had these EWs. Night before last was the leaky nappy, this morning it was about 5.50 but sun came up at 6.30am and he kept coming out. Would be much easier to get him to stay in bed for just 10 mins and then work it back to later sun up.

TBH we moving house, DH is working 14 hour days and we are ALL shattered. WE need the motivation to do this too so thanks for your support.

[barbaraz78]

Wow, it is hard with all these things going on. Maybe he feels your stress and different environment, and this is why he wakes more frequently or has ew. F would do the same. Hugs!

[Buntybear]

Actually DH's mum said the same thing this evening. Could certainly be why. Nursery said today they had to speak to him 3 times as was not listening and being a bit naughty. Normally he is no trouble.

[*Ali*]

Maybe try a role play where the toys are moving house or something and give him a chance to express any concerns he has about it?

[Buntybear]

Ahh, that is a lovely idea.  The move is in just over 2 weeks and we really need to get cracking on with packing so there will be lots more upheaval and we need to mentally prepare him for it. Thanks x

[Shiv52]

It might be an idea to wait until you move to introduce new rules? 

[Buntybear]

I will suggest to DH that we move the clock back at 6am and say he has to stay in bed. Can he have his light on and play/read but in bed?

What are your thoughts about this? I wonder when we move if he could have a bedside table with small lamp on it so if he wants to stay in bed and read/play then he can have a low level of light. The lights in his room now are full on and so it is like the middle of the day at 6am YK.

He STTN last night but was up at 5.45ish. I put him back in bed and turned light off 'it is still night time'. Out he gets and tuns light back on defiantly  . Off it goes and I leave him fully expecting a tantrum. Nope took himself back off to bed for another half an hour. Nice one Olly 

[creations]

I've always let DS read in bed in the morning (from I don't know maybe 10 or 12 months old, it was the only way to keep him quiet).  He gets about 20 mins and I switch his books every few days to keep him interested.

I'm not 100% sure what's happening at the moment there, you say the sun is set to come up at 6.30 but lights are on at 6am and bright like middle of day?  Is he turning a lamp on that he can access? Is it the main/overhead light?
Suggestion: remove bulb from overhead/main light if he is flicking the switch on, so the switch is useless.  Set up a lamp with a bright enough bulb for you to use as the main light in the day but plug it into a digital timer (digital is better because you can put lots of different settings in it where as the click out tabs sort you can only set the same thing every day and not so accurate on time either) which you plug in out of reach or behind a wardrobe or outside the room. Set the timer so that at night there is no power going to the lamp whether the switch is turned on or not, so if he fiddles with the lamp or tries to play or read before the sun then the lamp doesn't work.  Set it so it gives power at sun up and throughout the day, off again at BT.  Hope that makes sense.
I would imagine after a short while of the overhead bulb being removed he would stop attempting to put that light on and you could prob
put a bulb back in.
(I don't have DS's lamp within reach of him, he doesn't get to turn it on or off only the timer switch does that but he is younger and I might give him control when he is older)

[Buntybear]

I'm not 100% sure what's happening at the moment there, you say the sun is set to come up at 6.30 but lights are on at 6am and bright like middle of day?  Is he turning a lamp on that he can access? Is it the main/overhead light?

All I mean is that when he gets up BEFORE his sun then the light is very bright if he turns it on (sorry specific timings largely irrelevant, just examples). It is an overhead light that has 4 bulbs and a standard lamp which is just as bright TBH.

At nearly 4 YOs there is not much you can do to stop them turning lights on I don't think. He is tall enough to reach the wall switch and when I tried turning standard lamp off at wall he started to play with the plug socket to get it back on. As we are moving in 2 weeks I am trying to re think it for the new house so it is more suitable ie plug socket out of reach.

I think you are right about not having a light on before sun is up. It is just that I am torn as he normally plays so nicely on his own in his room. It has really helped his independent play! I am reluctant to take that away as he is such a people person that the 'rule' doesn't 'state' he has to stay in his room I am just not sure he will  Trying to getting a happy medium but I not sure it exists 

[creations]

I'd prob make sun up earlier and have a light he can put on for quiet play but after sun up.  But then perhaps I will think totally differently in a year when DS is that age yk? 

[*Ali*]

No I wouldn't allow him to put a light on to play before the sun is up. To me that defeats the whole concept of it being nighttime when the sun is not up. What if he wakes at 3 or 4am and wants to start playing? How would he know the difference? To me any waking before the sun is up should be treated as a NW. I.e. Tell him it is nighttime and put him back to bed. He isn't going to fall back to sleep if he knows he can get up and play I wouldn't have thought.
I would stop him turning on the lights in the same way I would stop him swinging from the curtains or climbing on furniture or any other behaviour that is not acceptable to me when he should be sleeping. I would go in and tell him it is sleepy time and put him back to bed. I know you probably want to carry on sleeping when it is so early (I would!) but I think you may have to invest some time in really enforcing the rules before he will start to follow them on his own. At this age I believe it is often not enough to tell children rules and they will be able to follow them they often still need our help in resisting.
What about having the sun set for a time when you are happy for him to be awake and play quietly in his bed with some small toys or books you leave within his reach and then have some other cue for the time you are willing to get up with him? It could be an alarm or you could come and get him when it is time.

[Shiv52]

I've been thinking about this and I think if you are going to the bother of setting new rules then I'd say no lights until the sun is up. Until that time you need to try and go back to sleep. Otherwise you get into a pickle if as Ali says he wakes at 4am. It's either night time/sleep time or it's not YK?