Looong NWs for 13 month old and dangerous in cot

[Buttonbobs]

How're getting on today?

[K-JDA]

Ugh not great!

Yesterday was:

WU 5.45
S 9.55-10.25
S 1.15-2.45 (woke up after 45 mins, had to APOP)
Bed 7 - fell asleep fine, gave meds before bed
NW - 10pm - managed to just lie down and SS
NW - 10.20 - had to go in a few times to lie down but SS and back asleep by 10.45

Gave DF meds at 2am - worked fine, barely stirred

EW - 4.50 stirred and sat up - managed to lie down and WO and attempted to SS - quiet for 10 mins on tummy trying to drop back off, then sat up so did same again. This went on 3-4 times where trying to SS back to sleep. Sat up at 5.50 and getting hysterical so got him up at this point.

So good news was he wasn't needing to be picked up and more receptive to being laid down and me walking out. Also didn't feed. Bad news is a short night and v tired baby now.

Fell asleep in car on way to nursery and difficult to wake up.

Have asked them to try a 30 min cat nap this am and long sleep this afternoon in case the late catnap is causing the issue. Perhaps this routine swap may help?

Given he was covered by meds - do u think this is the 2-1 at play and I need to take jcsmum advice and move to 1 nap?

Problem is he wakes early and nursery lunch at 12 and don't think he can make it to 12.30 for 1 nap. Also 2 afternoons he finishes nursery at 1!

Am totally lost about what to do for the best!

[Buttonbobs]

Well, first of all - well done with the DF, this is really good news and I hope it is useful to you in future.

Gave DF meds at 2am - worked fine, barely stirred

WU 5.45S 9.55-10.25S 1.15-2.45 (woke up after 45 mins, had to APOP)Bed 7 - fell asleep fine, gave meds before bedNW - 10pm - managed to just lie down and SSNW - 10.20 - had to go in a few times to lie down but SS and back asleep by 10.45

Looking at this in isolation, I do think that it could be that the early nap is causing him to wake up earlier in the morning. It's as if his body knows he can get sleep again soon so he stirs in lighter sleep and isn't quite tired enough to resettle, even though he does need a bit more sleep really.

He was probably pretty tired by that first nap after 4hrs A time, but then he seemed UT for the second nap, perhaps a little later for the second nap in the afternoon would help.

At this age we had to go to set-naps for E and it really helped us get over the early starts. But, it did mean a good couple of weeks of her being really OT while settling into the new pattern. Also, if you decided to try this, you would need to decide what pattern to follow and stick to it. It would seem that one nap at 12.30ish would be a good start and I would hope that this would enable him to sleep longer in the morning.

However, as you might need to allow for a short morning CN and longer nap in the afternoon on days when you pick him up from nursery at 1 it might take longer than normal for him to settle into the pattern. On those days could he do a very short CN at nursery (say 20 mins) and then wait until after you get home to go down for a nap?

Have you read this?

Set naps for toddlers: Why, How and When

What do you think?

[K-JDA]

Thanks for this. Will have a good read of the set nap thread - think I've read it before.

Well he has developed hand, foot and mouth disease and is a semi-grumpy baby as a result as he is under the weather - bless him. He can't go to nursery for a few days so gives me the opportunity to be with him.

I think your suggestion of 12.30 nap and short catnap on the 2 days he finishes early is definitely where we need to go but am hesitant to start this week as don't think I should add to the issue with major OT. Today he had 1/2 hr this am then 1 hr this PM on a walk and bed at 7 as had to take him to the doctors so a v long day. Am tempted to stick with 30 mins in the morning and long PM nap for the next few days until he's better and then do the switch to 1 nap after that. What do you think?

[Buttonbobs]

Hugs honey, so many people I know have LOs with this at the moment. I hope he's not too uncomfortable with it.

If he's poorly I would just go with the flow a bit and make him as comfortable as possible.

Once he's well again, remember that he may get more OT with sticking with two naps than with going for one nap, but while he's ill you definitely need to let him sleep when he's comfortable.

[K-JDA]

Do you know he is as bright as a button today so through the initial symptoms and the spots don't seem to be bothering him either so am just going to push on and do 1 nap for the next 2 days whilst he is home with me in a less stimulating environment and get the ball rolling on this. Will do a CN if he is really struggling tomorrow.

Last night he did 7-5.15 with no NWs but you are right in that he is not tired enough to do that last sleep cycle. I managed to APOP in my arms so that he was at least dozing til 6am so at least OT is at a minimum.

From reading the set naps link I am a bit concerned with him being touchy that this may be a disaster but just got to give it a try as I hate 5am with a passion!

Will report back in a few days.

[Buttonbobs]

Ok hon, you're right it can be too much OT for a touchy toddler, but if you want to give it a go do and let me know how you get on. Here when you need

[K-JDA]

Right I am taking the plunge and trying 1 nap. Have tried a 30 min am nap this week and apart from 1 day where the PM nap was rubbish wake-up has been 4.30-5.15 and APOP not working. V concerned about the OT though with him being touchy and EBT never been much of a success. What is the best way to handle such a long day - do I attempt to APOP early wake-ups or at least keep still in my arms in the dark until say 6am, do the set nap at 12.30 and then put to bed 1/2 hr early and just keep repeating?

[Buttonbobs]

If you go for set naps you definitely need to decide on a time for WU, and anything before that you treat as a NW. Personally, I didn't do the same for naps as we dealt with shorter naps by offering an earlier BT.

When doing set naps you choose your WU, nap and BT. Wake up do as above, nap can move earlier or later by 15mins each way to take account of early WU or later WU (we can hope )then BT can come earlier by half an hour if needed but no more.

It can be quite brutal for a week or so but the idea is it resets your LOs body clock and they learn that sleep is at those times and no other and hopefully start to sleep longer. You will see OT but hopefully come out of the other side.
Keep me posted xxx

[K-JDA]

Ok thanks - eek!

Is it reasonable to expect more than an 11hr night? At the moment bedtime is 7 and nap would have to be 12.30 to fit in with nursery lunch.

[K-JDA]

Sorry I should say 11hrs is the most he has ever done when STTN so is more than this reasonable when picking the WU time.

[Buttonbobs]

You might find if he copes well enough with the OT that will happen over the next week or sigh at he shifts his WU a bit later to cope with the later nap and then BT. 7pm sounds good for BT for a start. If you find you get any BT resistance or the mornings just aren't lengthening we'll have to rethink it.

[K-JDA]

Hi there

Thought I would update on progress and just seek assurance as we are in serious OT territory now...

The last few days have been as follows:

Sat:
Wu 5 - wouldn't resettle, got up at 6 fed but really tired so put back down
S 6.30-7.30
S 1-2.30
S 7

Sun:
WU 5.15 - held til 6, dozed in my arms, wouldn't go back in cot
S 12.30-2 (had to APOP pd & at 45 mins)
S 7
NW 1-2.30 had to rock, just screaming
NW 4.50-5.15 (rocked but managed to get back in cot)

Mon:
WU 6.20
S 12.45-2.30
S 7
NW 3.30-4.30 SS eventually but kept getting upset when I went in to lie back down as can't do this himself yet. In end had to wait for it to be quiet for 10 mins then laid him down and he SS

Tues:
WU 5.40
S 20 mins on walk (not sure what time)
S 1.35-3.10
S 7
NW 2.50 SS in 5 mins when gave lovey back :-)
Ew 5.20 - wouldn't SS
Held in dark til 6

Wed:
Get up 6
S 12.33-2.25
S 6.45

Do I just keep going? He is coping pretty well with the OT at nursery but is definitely more clingy/crying more at home. He so desperately needs a good nights sleep - here's hoping a long nap today will help tonight.

Am concerned that my approach to the EW is wrong - am opting for holding in the dark to keep him calm after WIWO fails (only giving this a couple of attempts) in order to ensure he at least gets some rest til 6 rather than an exhausting scream fest...is this ok or could this be storing up a prop issue.

Grateful for your thoughts. I think nursery think I am mad!!!

[Buttonbobs]

Hi honey,  I know it's scary right now but you do need to go with it for a little longer before we can tel if it's going to work.

Those long NWs in the early hours don't seem like OT to me, is he teething at all? Have you tried medicating at all? He may well be OT as well, but I'm not sure it's whole picture. What do you think?

Personally, I would suggest that you don't hold him in the mornings in case it creates a prop. How is he when he wakes? If he's crying then I would suggest using your sleep training method of choice until your agreed "morning WU" time. If he's happy or quiet then i would leave him to it until WU time.

[K-JDA]

Hi - you're right it is pretty scary right now. Thanks so much for supporting me through this.

I have been giving when he wakes up in the night but I gave meds last night before bed and no NW so u might be right about teething - 1st molars are bulging up. Didn't give before bed tonight so will do a DF and see if it helps get us past 5am. He has been fiddling his ears a bit which he does when teething. Plus he is v clingy to me which I thought was just the OT but may be teething related too. Should probably get his ears checked just in case...

At the EWs he sits up immediately and doesn't take long to rumble and start to get upset. I only finished his NF at this time recently so he is definitely used to contact with me. Because he can't lie back down it gets difficult because me going in to lie him down and then leaving really gets him upset so not sure how best to prevent a meltdown for 45 mins and adding to the OT hence me picking him up. I'm not that confident on the best method but going in does not seem to help. If pain is at play then I feel I should be there. Any thoughts would be really appreciated!