can self settle but wakes crying through the night

[lyssie28]

Hi again.  My DD will go to sleep easily by herself for naps and at bedtime but then still wakes a few times through the night crying.  At first I thought it was the dummy but most of the time I go to her she still has it in her mouth.  If this is the case I'll pat her and shush and just walk out of the room and most of the time she'll go to sleep again but this might happen every 2 hours and in the early hours every half an hour.  She doesn't have a bottle anymore until around 6am and even that one she doesn't drink all of it.  Just wondering if anyone has any ideas about why she might be waking?  I thought nappy but it's always ok and maybe teething so I give her nurofen.  She is learning a hell of a lot lately too.  She is 7 months and is crawling and pulling herself into a standing position. She also copies our actions and tries to copy what we say. She is never still even in her sleep.  Developmental maybe?  She is 7 months. 

[Skadiver13]

Hi Hun it could certainly be developmental. Could you post an EAS for us to see what her day looks like? Could something else be bothering her? Temp or noises? Is it the same time every night? Is she really fussing/crying when you go it or could she be trying to resettle and maybe you are going in too soon?

[lyssie28]

Her EASY changes all the time depending on what time she gets up but recently its been:

wu 6.00 feed
up for day 6.30

E 7.00 top up feed
8.00 solids
S 9.00 - 10.30

E11.00
12.00 solids
S 1.30 - 3.00

E3.00
4.00 solids

Bt 6.45

I sometimes try and put her down for a half hour nap about 4.30 but she will never take it now so her A time before bed is normally around 4 hours.

It is getting very cold here now but the boiler is in her bedroom and it's very noisy so we don't put the heating on through the night.  She has a winter sleeping bag though and 2 extra blankets so she seems ok.

She still cries when I go in.  I normally wait a few mins before going in and sometimes if she doesn't seem upset I will wait 10 mins.  Sometimes she resettles and other times she will just cry even more.  She does tend to wake around 1am which is normally the time she resettles herself then anything after 4am she seems to find it harder.  I'm edging her bedtime to 7pm to see if that helps but without a late afternoon nap its really hard. 

[Skadiver13]

Hi Hun looks like she is doing a 3hr A in the AM and 3hr A in the PM. Is there any reason you are still trying to fit in the CN? Does she do better on nights when you leave the CN out?  Have you checked out the link for 7-9M routines? She could just need to fully drop that CN so she can get used to the A times?

chronological EASY samples, 7-9 months

Is she usually low sleep needs or average or high sleep needs?

Just some other things I could think of.
Given she's under 2 blankets and a sleeping bag and I don't know how cold it is could she possibly be too warm? Or uncomfortable because she wants to roll over?

Also I  didn't see a BT bottle could she possible need a top up at BT?

Do you think she could be OT at all? How long have you been doing 3hr A in the AM?

Lastly I think if she isn't crying at all and just fussing or mantra crying don't go in at all. You said sometimes you'll wait 10min. You could possibly just wait it out and see if she resettles on her own even if it takes 30min. Sometimes that would happen to my lo during times of development. He'd be up in the middle of the night for 30min fussing around, rolling from end to end of the crib slamming his legs down but would eventually settle on his own so I left him to it unless he was crying.

HTH

[lyssie28]

Hi, thanks for replying    Sorry I meant to put a bottle at 6.30 and then a df at 10.30 which is slowly getting phased out.

We have only just started 3 hours but it really does depend on how her night goes.  A lot of the time we only get to 2 and a half hours.  I do the catnaps sometimes because she always seems so tired by 5pm but it's too early for her bed.  She seems tired a lot, she rubs her eyes all the time but is generally happy so I won't put her down until she starts to grumble and won't play with her toys and if I put her in her cot when she does this I know she will sleep for at least 1hr and 15mins.

She could be OT at bt but even the odd days when she might have half an hour at 4.30 she wakes up cranky and seems just as tired and it's still difficult to get her to her bt.  I would put bt earlier to 6 but I'm afraid she'll wake even earlier for the day as we had a lot of problems with that a few months ago.  Do you think I should shorten her A times for now? She has always woken up though the night but I thought that she would settle more as she has learnt how to go to sleep herself now.

[Skadiver13]

Hi hun, did you take a look at the typical routine link? Has she been relatively HSN or LSN or ASN (sleep needs)? I ask because she is on the high side of A times for her age but mine was aswell because he was LSN.

The issues you had with EBT was that because she doesn't tack on lost day sleep? Basically EBT is when the day becomes less that 13hrs on 3 naps or less than 12 on 2 or 1 because you want to keep the day short as OT will keep the EBT from working. I hope this makes sense. So if she wakes at 6 EBT would be say 5:30. How long does she normally sleep at night?

My LO never tacked but a few times by chance and on 3 naps he only did 10.5hrs at night. I always thought he was OT but hindsight he was CN so you could always shorten it to 20min to help combat the OT but get her to a resonable BT. But if you are not going to do a CN that A time from 3-6:45 is definetely too long and may be causing the wakeup.

As for being sleepy all the time. That's very typical for Lo's of her age. They get used to a certain A time so their body tells them it's sleepy time but in reality tehy could do a little more. If you feel like she can do 3hrs then by all means take her outside for a walk or change of scene to help wake her up.

Last thing do you think the DF could be unsettling her? I found with mine that DF never worked. He would sleep amazing the 1st half the night but after the DF would wake every 2-3hrs. Once I stopped the DF and just let him wake once in the night for a feed he would wake himself up to eat and then settle in.  Also do you think anything she is eating for solids could be upsetting her tummy? Gas etc?

[lyssie28]

Hi, she was always typically lower than the average for her A's so I suppose she was HSN but I gradually increased it because I thought maybe her EW was due to not having enough A time. 

She doesn't seem to sleep longer at night if her naps are shorter through the day and her nw seem to be the same as well.  No matter how her day has been she still wakes through the night.  She will normally go straight to sleep between 6.30 - 6.45 will have a 12hr night, sometimes she's even done 14hrs, but with a few nw inbetween.  No matter what time she wakes in the morning she is always ready for her bed at 6.30 even when she's woke up at 8.30 the odd time.

I had thought of the DF but she always wakes for it now so I'm reducing the amount gradually to phase it out.  I might try just missing it out entirely and see how it goes. 

[Skadiver13]

It's hard for me to say what could be causing it other than environmental too hot/cold etc, or maybe trying to lessen your day to at max 12hrs on the 2 nap day to try and combat OT.

As for DF maybe try just resettling at the DF and see what happens. Then when she wakes later in the night Feed her and then see if she resettles for the rest of the night?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Speaking to the environmental factors...do you have an idea of the room temp? We have our house set to 16.5ºC overnight and baby is in a cotton undershirt & tights, fleece footie sleeper and a fleece sleeping bag with no blankets (her bassinet sheet cozy microfibre).  Just wondering is she too warm?

Otherwise I would think developmental with maybe some ot as well...I remember DD1 having such wiggly disturbed nights when she was learning new skills.

[lyssie28]

I think sometimes she seems to be cold especially in the mornings her hands are cold.  I only use small thin blankets to add a bit extra with her sleeping bag.  I've no idea the temperature of her room but since we dont have heating on through the night it does get quite cold.  We're going to try tonight setting thermostat to 15 degrees and see how it goes.  We just have the problem of the boiler waking her then though but i suppose she will get used to the noise.

I guess it could be a mixture of things.  She is always wriggling too and we go into her room and her head is at the bottom of her cot and shes lying on her front.  The blankets are normally just a little bit on her at this point which is why we had to invest in the sleeping bag. 

I'll try stopping df too and watch how she is for her solids.  Fx one them will work and she'll sleep through!

[TB9]

We're going to try tonight setting thermostat to 15 degrees and see how it goes.

Yikes that is cold!  We keep our house at 20/21C and dd2 is in very warm fuzzy pjs, a sleep sack, and her blankie or other thinner blanket on top of her.  If your LOs room is 15C at night it probably is too cold 

[*Ali*]

Have you tried a 6pm bt? Many LOs need a longer night when dropping a nap. If she is waking at 6am as per your easy then a 12hr day is probably the max she will be able to handle without getting OT. You can always work on moving the whole day later in 5-10 min increments if you prefer a later wake up and bt one she is more settled.

I agree with pps that I would drop the cn now and stick with the 3hr A times while you are getting 2x 1.5hr naps.

Have you given any pain meds in the early hours if she is teething?

How long had she been an sleeper?  Just wondering if she is still getting the hang of it at night if it isa recent thing.  I agree with pp I would only go in if she is crying otherwise I'd leave her to resettle herself so she isn't looking for you at every waking.

[lyssie28]

Yeah you're right 15 degrees was too cold I changed it to 20 though the night.

Last night she woke at 12.40 but I didn't go in and she resettled herself *yay*

However, she woke at 4am and didn't go back to sleep I tried extra blankets and turned up the heat a bit.  I know she wasn't too hot but her hands were a bit cold so I thought maybe she was cold.  I changed her nappy and made her a bottle and she still didn't go back to sleep.  It's the first time really that she hasn't snoozed in the morning.  Normally she will go back to sleep for half an hour to 45 mins then wake and back to sleep again until I get her up.

If I do 12 hr day what time should I put her to bed tonight if she woke at 4am?  She used to wake early all the time and when her A increased she would sleep a bit better and longer and I'm scared if I put her down too early then she'd keep waking at 4 or 5 for the day.  She has never slept through.  CN was dropped a few weeks ago but I do tend to give her one if her naps fall too early and she's awake too long before bedtime.  If it's longer than 4 hrs I try to give her one.  Should I stop doing this?

Today so far her day has been:

wu 4.00 kept trying to get her back to sleep

6.00 up the day

7.20 - 8.45 1st nap I was trying to wait until 8am but she'd already been awake 3hr20

11.20 2nd nap still sleeping she was so tired.

Today she seems really OT.  If she has a nap for 1hr and a half and wakes at 12.50ish should I give her a CN of just say 20 mins to get her bt?

Wrt through the night I'll leave her if she's not upset and see how she goes. Do you think it might be a bit separation anxiety?  Although she does go to sleep by herself for all of her naps and at bt.



 

[Skadiver13]

Hi Sorry to have missed you yesterday. How have things gone today? It could be a little bit of SA but if she's not crying just leave her be to see if she SS.

[lyssie28]

Hi, she's been a bit better on the nightimes.  She's still waking and crying a bit but only for a few minutes then she settles.  In the morning however, she's still waking early.  After her 4am wake up she totally refused any extra nap after 12.30.  I put her to bed at 6.15 and she went straight to sleep.  She woke at her normal 1ish and I gave her her dummy and then she slept until 5.30 and was up at 6.  It wasn't bad night considering how her day had been.  Yesterday she had 2 solid naps both 2 hrs long and was in bed at 6.45.  She woke at 12.30 but settled herself and then woke at 5am.  I fed her at 5.30 and she went back to sleep (I think) until 7.45.  We haven't took the df out totally we were going to gradually decrease the amount of milk but last night she became wide awake so I think tonight i'll just try resettling without it. 

[Skadiver13]

That's great that she's settling on her own. For the 4AM wake up what are you doing to get her back to sleep. It's so hard but I would pick a time for us it's 5:30 which is earlier than most who choose 6 as a time you accept as wake up but nothing before (unless sick of course). So if she wakes anytime before say 5:30 do what you need to do to get her back to sleep. For us at that age it was rocking back to sleep. I didn't have it in me at that time to deal with gradual withdrawl and settling in the crib. BUT if she's an independent sleeper than I would try working with her to get her back to sleep.

Are you sure she's not hungry? If you fed her at 5:30 and she slept till 7:45 trhat 4am wake up could in deed be hunger. I think the rule of thumb is they can go at night how long they go during the day at this age. So 3-4hrs at night? We didn't drop our night feed till 9-10M and he was on formula for BF it can be even longer.

What makes think she doesn't need the night feed?

[lyssie28]

When she she wakes at 4 i just give her her dummy and shush for a minute and walk straight back out.  She would normally settle and keep snoozing until a more acceptabke time but the other morning she was just awake.  I fed her, changed her nappy and made sure she wasnt too hot or cold but she wouldnt go back over.

We stopped the nightfeed because she started to waking every hour for milk and also she was only taking a couple oz.  When we first stopped it she went to one nw where she would be easy to resettle. 

When she reached 4 or 5 months old i stopped all rocking etc and she is an independant sleeper now.  So much so that if she wakes after a half hour nap or wakes early in the morning there's nothing i can do to get her back to sleep (if she not hungry etc) and if she wants to go to sleep she just rolls over and sleeps.  I'll keep tryin in the mornings to settle her.  I never pick her up through the night unless she seems hungry but i can put my hand on her chest and shush like i used to maybe that will help her.

[Skadiver13]

Hi Lyssie, is she waking because of the dummy? I guess is she waking because it falls out? For night feeding if you've weaned it all together and she's sleeping through GREAT.  But I would say if you do a DF at 10:30 and she wakes around 2:30/3 maybe feed her and then she should be good till she wakes and you'll know that 4am isn't due to food? That being said if she's used to Sleeping through with out a feed and you can settle at 4 go for it. I know with mine he never got a DF. So he was doing BT bottle, then one around 1 and another around 4:30/5. Then the one dissapeared around 7 months. But the other stayed at 4am until about 9 months then I weaned it when he stopped taking his morning bottle due to being full. Just my experience. I know some moms who will try to settle and if they do great, but if they wake up again with in 30-45min it's probably due to hunger. There is nothing wrong with trying to resettle first.

As for rocking, I'm so bad at that. It was my go to at that age when I couldn't settle my ds back down again and it worked but it was defeintely a prop on purpose.  That's great she's an Independant sleeper GREAT JOB!!! Resettling short naps is so difficult and at some point I remember just giving up and saying enough. I'd give it maybe 15min of trying and then would get him up. 

Long winded sorry. I guess that 4am could be developmental as well if she wasn't hungery. 4-5am is my sons witching hour. If he's uncomfortable going through a GS, SA or any other number of things and he wakes it's almost impossible to get him back to sleep. 

HTH

[lyssie28]

Hi, we thought it was the dummy but actually she cries whether she has it in her mouth or not.  At bedtime she will fall asleep with it but it doesn't bother her if it falls out.  If she can find it herself she just pops it back in.  I suppose my dd is like your son atm.  She is waking between 4 and 5am and isn't going back to sleep.  We've tried everything but I'm wondering if maybe she just isn't tired anymore.  I'm going to try and make her bedtime just a little later and shift the day forward a bit. Last night she had one of her worst nights.  I'm sure she never slept from 2am but then when I got her up for the day at 6.30 she wouldn't nap until 11! All week last week she didn't go down for her first nap until then as she was sleep until 7.45 and then when she was due another at around 3 half 3 she has just been playing in her cot for half an hour and then crying to be out.  I thought maybe she only needs one nap a day but I think it might be a knock on effect from her waking so much through the night as she is still too young for one nap.  She also will not take a morning bottle at the minute if she has one at 4 or 5am so I'm not sure what to do. 

 

[Skadiver13]

What do you do when she wakes up that early? Do you shush/pat, pupd wiwo?.

As for the nap refusals that's definitely not a one nap thing. She's entirely too young. I think she would just be dropping her third nap and into 2 at this age. Most babies don't drop the 2nd nap until 15-18Months. 

What's your current EASY

[lyssie28]

When she wakes up early i shush/pat and if that doesnt work i try feeding her and i check her nappy.

Currently her easy today has been;

Wu 5.00 tried to get back to sleep

Up for the day at 6.00

S 8.20 - 9.30

S 12.00 - 1.30

Refuses any more naps in bed at 6. 30

Sunday night didnt wake until 4am had a bottle then didnt wake until 7.45 and then last night she woke at 2am, 4am,5.20 nad didnt go back to sleep.

[Skadiver13]

It sounds like she needed that feed at 4 so it wokred well to feed her. I would do that (we did until ds was 10 then weaned it) For the night she woke at 2,4,5 did the day prior look any different? Could something else be bothering her? Solids you gave her the night before for lunch or dinner? Waking like that sounds developmental or could be discomfort?

The key is to be consistent with your wind-down routine for both nap and BT.
Try and keep your routine consistent during the day, naping at the same times. If you she refuses a nap (and she is a self-settler) than try for 20min. Get her up spend some very quiet low key time and try again a bit later.  I would also say her day is too long if she's waking at 1:30 and BT is at 6:30 than you are doing a 5hr A time before bed so she may wake from being OT. 

This is a sample 7 month old routine
2 to 3 hr. A time (longest in the morning)
two naps of 1.5-2 hours
early bedtime as catnap has been dropped
Total daytime sleep: 3-4 hours
Total nighttime sleep: 12 hrs. 45 mins. to 13 hrs. 15 mins.

Cooper is 7 months. Give or take 30-60min, goes something like this

E  7.00 - 7.30am Wake and Breast Feed
A  8.00 Breakfast then play
S  9.30 NAP (1.5-2 hrs)
E  11.30 Wake and Breast Feed
A  12.00 Lunch
S  1.30 NAP (1.5-2 hrs)
E  4.00 Breast Feed
A  4.30 Dinner
A  5.30 Bath and Massage
S  6.15 BED till morning

[lyssie28]

Thanks i think i'll give that routine a try.  If she wakes really early though should i still wait until the set nap time or thereabouts? Just thinking if she wakes at say 4am but i dont get her up properly until 7 should i give her an earlier nap? But then her naps will fall short again and she'd have too long an A time before bed.

I haven't noticed anything different in her days and infact her day on sunday was very bad as she had a bad night on the saturday and was ot all day and wouldn't settle for any of her naps but then she had a great night. 

I-ll try being more consistent about times and get her up at the same time everyday.  I think its knocks the whole routine off qhen she gets up later.

[Skadiver13]

Hi Lyssie don't just follow the routine becuase it's there. It's just a suggestions. Look at what you are doing know and tailor her routine. You don't just want to up and switch everything on  her. I think she's combination OT and developmental. For Sunday night she most likely just crashed from OT and slept through. My LO is known to do that.

It's ok if you let her sleep in as night sleep is more restorative than day sleep but you can always set a time like 7:30. that's maybe 30min past what she normally does but not too much so that it ruins the whole day. Then you'd just move eveyrthing else by 30min.
 If that's what works for you.

As for waking at 4am, she's not up for the day at that time correct? I would pick a time (for us it's 6) that if ds wakes up before then he is not up for the day. I'll work on resettling him until 6 comes around.  Remind me again she's a self settler for bt and nt correct? no rocking, feeding etc to sleep?

[lyssie28]

Ok yeah i understand.  I'll look at her day and how i might be able tweak her routine a bit and help her with the last A time.  She self settles.  I can put her in her cot after her nap/bt routine and just walk out of the room.  She cuddles her pluto dog and goes to sleep.  If she wakes at 4 i don't get her up but can be back and forwards to her room constantly so even though she's awake she's still in her cot.  I've never tried to do pu/pd or anything and the earliest i get her up is 6 but really i try to aim for 7 but it depends because sometimes she will work herself up into a right strop because she wants to be up.