Wanting to hear peoples experiences with regards to short naps

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Aw, ((hugs)).  The discrepancy between number of weeks and number of months old can also add confusion - and the guidance times are just guidance, I only worry that you'll keep playing catch up as it's a while since Layla suggested increasing the A time to get more in-line with guidance for a 5 month old.

So looking at your EASY my suggestion would be to up the first A time to a minimum of 2hr 30 every day and bring the other A times up to 2hr 20. The EW could be coming from the first nap coming too early and results in a vicious cycle of EW followed by early nap.  EW's can be due to UT or OT but even with OT what you really need are longer A times to enable you to extend a nap or two.  The thing to remember is that with OT build up your baby will eventually crash out for a long sleep and you can often come out the other side with a more stable routine.  Some LOs don't respond particularly well to small increases in A time (for instance if I put mine to bed 15 mins later he does not wake 15 mins later, he wakes at the same time and lives with 15 mins less sleep. If I was to continue with this it would be a long drawn out process of him losing 15 mins sleep every day for ages and building up a terrible OT sleep deficit. If I need to shift his sleep I have to do it in HUGE increases - way more than I want him to move, and wait for him to crash for a catch up sleep, then we are on the new routine and I can back off on the BT a little to allow a full night)

Can I ask about the E times in the evening/night. Am I right in reading your EASY there is E at 5pm and then the second NW at 11pm?  Is there another E at BT around 6.30pm ish that you forgot to write in or not?

One other thing you might have already tried, is to stay in the room when he naps. Having you there can help to relax him, LOs sense your presence, hear your breathing which help to regulate their breathing.  When we went through a short nap phase the first long nap without help was when I decided to nap in his room and we both slept 2 hrs. I put him down and left the room to allow self settling and returned quietly after he fell asleep and lay myself near on my own bed.  It's not something that I'd advise every nap as your presence can become a prop but like other extending methods you can do it to help encourage a longer napping habit, you are also there to begin extending immediately (with shush/pat or adapted) if needed.

I totally agree with pp, don't be hard on yourself and don't stress it. You can only do what you can do.  And despite my harsh sounding words about playing catch up on A times (hugs again) we are all here to support you x

[gb18]

Hi. Sorry I forgot to add an E at bedtime too.

I have stuck with A 2hr 30 first A and tried 2hr 20 today but we have had an awful time. I have ended up with 2 30 min naps and one 20 min. Screaming on waking and unable to settle.

I feel extremely guilty as feel like I am causing my normally very happy boy to be miserable. Also a bit worried about increasing ot and crashing as have read before this is not recommended. 2hr 20 seems a long time after a short nap, plus my LO is now so Ot he can no longer independently settle himself which he could do before.

Shall I carry on with these times?

[gb18]

Forgot to say, end of day yesterday 3rd nap in car ended up being nearly 2 hours as stayed asleep in car seat when we brought him in. Today looks to be doing the same. Would a long late nap disrupt things as this normal cn position? Also is this crashing?
Thanks

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You must only do what you feel is right and what you are comfortable with, regardless of what anyone says here or IRL.  You are his mummy, only you know him best (here it is just words and numbers!) and only you have your mummy instinct for your LO.

Tracy's methods are not free of crying (or screaming) however they are vastly different to controlled crying or CIO as you never leave your baby to cry alone (this means there stress hormone is either very low or not detected).  Do try not to feel guilty about your LOs crying or sleep, you can only set the scene for sleep you cannot force it to happen, and as much as he cries so long as you are there he knows he is safe and not abandoned.
In TBWSAYP Tracy describes a baby of almost 4 months old being transitioned to a 4hr EASY. As the mother begins to sleep train her baby and he wakes after 45 mins they continue to try to resettle him for an hour, it is then close to his feed time so they stop trying to resettle and continue with low key activity for the rest of what should be nap time, then feed, then continue with activity until the next nap time 2hrs later, he doesn't settle at that nap time and it takes an additional 45 mins to get him to sleep (A time now 2hrs 45) and when he nods off Tracy tells Mum to wake him 45 mins later because he has used up much of his nap time being settled to sleep and Tracy says the goal is to get him on a healthy sleep routine.  This baby was almost 4 months. (see page 232, 233)
Now I am not saying you should be this strict about naps times, often on the forums we have a much slower/gentler approach to sleep training, in part at least because it is such hard work on the parents.  I just show you this as example of how hard an A time can be pushed when Tracy did not consider it a problem at all, in fact it was what she was telling the mum to do.  Although Tracy warned us of letting our LOs become OT she was not against OT during sleep training to get a good routine going.

Short naps in this age range are described by Tracy as having come from either lack of routine or not moving up to the 4hr EASY when the window opened.  Honestly so so many of us have gone through it.  It's what brought me to the forums.  Just looking at your EASY I am wondering if there is a reason he is not fully moved to a 4 hrly E and if there is reason for the cluster feeding in the evening.  it looks like you partly moved towards the 4hr EASY but didn't fully make it there.  It's ok if there is a reason (mine had to have 3hrly feeds due to reflux until he was 6 months old), just checking that you are aware of it yk?

Were those 30 min naps at home or out and about?  Did you watch the nap to see what happened?  What are you doing to resettle after a short nap now?  How long did you try to resettle for?  Are you trying w2s to shush/pat him through his transition?  sorry for so many questions just trying to get a handle on what's going on there for you.

The 2hr nap in place of the CN, I wouldn't let that become a habit.  Yes it sounds like he crashed out to catch up on his sleep but you don't want it at 3pm, a long nap then can start to disrupt bed time, he really needs to get that nap earlier on.

More hugs for you. I know this is not easy, I've been there. It is exhausting, worrying, guilt-filled...
This will pass, it will x

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Just stopping by with a hug today. I know this is hard x

[gb18]

Thanks creations.
Have stuck with the timings - no success with first nap yet but did manage to extend second nap - all be it he woke 4 times screaming and we only managed a total of 1 hr20 including all the waking but I figure this is still progress! Crashed at 3 pm again today for the 3rd day in a row and had a 2 hour sleep - at least I know he can extend when he is tired enough.

The 30 min naps were in the house. I always use shh/pat to try and extend as this works to settle LO if he needs help getting down for nap or BT. Stuck at it for 20 mins today and worked so crossing everything this works again.

Shall I carry on with timings until extending 2nd nap is easier and less screaming as I know the screaming is due to ot. If I increase timings further at the minute this would just get worse wouldn't it? Plus would it mean that crashing would continue and obviously trying to get that earlier.

Going to try and get a 4 hour feeding plan. Stuck with 3 1/2 due to slow weight gain and also wanted to stick with cluster to try and increase time till first wake up but happy to try without. How does 4 hour easy help with waking?

Thanks for all your help

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Many times LOs will take a bigger more sustaining feed if the bottle numbers are reduced. I don't know a lot about the ins and outs of bottles moving from 3 to 4hrs but have seen many threads for older LOs when they are on 4 bottles per day and intake is not great, dropping to 3 bottles can dramatically improve the overall daily intake (this is much closer to a year, I am not suggesting it for your LO, just giving example). I would imagine the 3hr to 4hr EASY works in the same way.

I know this is really hard for you, the short naps, trying to extend, the screaming etc.
I think your LO might need a big push to get down to 2 naps so that those first 2 naps consolidate into a decent length sleep - this would mean the second nap which is now becoming a habit of a long nap could be moved a bit earlier.  usually in the 3-2 nap drop it's the third nap, the CN, that is dropped, but in your LOs case it looks like a more natural way forward for him would be to drop the first nap which is consistently short, work on extending the second nap (keep going with the shush/pat, you are getting there) and keep the decent third nap. It's not the regular way forward, but what do you think?

Can you show me yesterday's EASY?

[gb18]

Hi

My EAS for that day was -
wu 6.30
E 7
S -9
wu 9.45
E 10.45
S 11.55 - woke 3 times between then and 12.25 - settled with shh/pat and then 20 mins shh/pat at 12.25
wu - 1.15
E 2.30
s 2.45 (as had a car journey)
wu - 5.45
E 6
6.30 - bath, E 7 - left to self settle - asleep by 7.30
wu - 10.45 - settled with shh/pat wu 11.15 - fed and the slept till 6.40am!! YAY!!

This felt like a great day!! Unfortunately the following day was a nightmare - only 2 45 min naps and one 30 min nap all day. Massive OT despite EBT and woke lots and was screaming - very unlike him unless he is super tired!! Plus - only fed 4 times due to EBT and increasing time between E - does anyone get through the night without a feed if only on 4 feeds? I am EBF so feel like that would be really unlikely to happen. Might try to keep in the cluster feed if possible. What do you think?

Happy to try and drop a nap if it means can get consistent long naps. How do I drop the first one? Struggling to keep him awake till 2hr 30 and he is OT therefore no chance of self settling - even when I put him down 25 mins before actual time I want him to sleep. Just plays with his lovie and then starts getting more and more agitated until I go in.

Thanks for your help

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Hmm, I think the reason it looked like a good day was that long 3hr nap, but the following day very short naps due to being UT from such a lot of day sleep the day before.
How do you feel about gritting your teeth and getting this routine sorted out?  It might involve some crying and you'd need to feel relatively energetic enough to do it - I know you prob don't have much energy just now after all this - see what you think.
Initially the A times can reduce a little as nap 1 is capped shorter, this brings nap 2 earlier, and nap 3 earlier. The idea that nap 2 gradually moves earlier (but he needs to be tired enough for it hence capping nap 1) to become a decent morning nap and nap 3 is maintained as it seems to be the most successful nap in the day.

wu 6.30
A 2hr
S 8.30 - cap at 30 mins 9.00
A 2hr 15
S 11.15 - extend if wakes up. Stay in room until the full 1.5hr nap time or later if he sleeps longer 12.45
A 2hr 15
S 3.00 - I would cap at 2hrs - 5.00
A 2hr 30
BT 7.30 (this is the time he self settled to sleep)

FWIW I think he's UT for the first nap which is why he is playing with his lovie, not ready for sleep then becomes agitated because he doesn't want to be sleeping.  As you are finding it difficult to push that first A time this alternative way would be to slightly reduce the A, cap the nap, and make him more tired for nap 2. Hopefully this makes nap 2 easier to extend, I know in the past there has sometimes been a good nap at that time.

The first nap (CN) isn't going to fully go until he can do 3hrs A, the A times between the CN and naps 2 and 3 would need to lengthen for this to happen.

Like I said in previous post, this isn't the normal route to drop a nap but if you feel this suits you then that's fine, EASY is all about adapting to individual needs.  What do you think?

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Hi - slight error in my previous message. He woke at 4.45pm so had a 2 hour nap not 3!! Thought that his good night had been down to god day sleep. Not sure what you think?

Thought I would give your suggestion a go today. I got the timings slightly wrong though as my EAS so far today s as follows -

Wu 6.30
e 7
S 8.55
Wu 9.30
e 10.50
S 12.05 - aimed for a bit earlier but did not settle indep therefore Shh/Pat till asleep
WU 12.45 - Shh/Pat - seemed to initial settle a bit and rubbing eyes a lot but then crying lots and thne resorted to picking up due to worsening screaming - unable to extend even then.

As soon as I got him up he was happy to be up and stopped screaming and smiled.

Honestly am beginning to think that this will not get sorted, do not know how he manages to be happy on such little sleep. Have to go out at 2 so I know that he will fall asleep in the car so not going to be able to push for longer A today for next nap.

What do you think about W2S? Thing is I have tried stirring him and 30 mins and this has never been successful as he has just woke and not resettled. Could I go in earlier?

Going to try and stick with your suggested plan of times

I added the cluster feed in yesterday so had 5 feeds and this meant that he did not wake till 1am after sleeping at 7 so think I will keep cluster feed at minute and aim for first 3 feeds at 4 hourly.

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Oh - by the way no luck yesterday either with any of the naps being extended and no long pm nap either. Had 4 naps though so he was bit better rested for bed and as last nap was not long - 30 mins roughly then he settled self within 10 mins at bedtime. He did wake at 1, 3 and 5 in the night though!

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That first nap really needs to be earlier and capped shorter if you hope to make him tired enough for nap 2 and work towards dropping the CN.
It looks to me like he needs to drop the CN so he can consolidate his sleep.
Actually looking at the times you got today there's a 2hr 35 A time before that second nap. I would be very tempted to just cut the CN out altogether and pretty soon. If he can wake up UT after that sort of A time and only 40 mins sleep I really suspect he can do longer A's than you are giving.

[gb18]

Hi.

Thought I would give an update.

I have been sticking to the suggested timings for the last 3 days and going to try and push them today. No success at all!!
He is crying on waking - all naps except the first, and I know he is tired. He may be happy when I get him up but I think that this is just his nature. He is extremely sociable but I am sure that despite happiness he is tired. I can't extend any naps.

Really feel that he is getting OT but just feel at a loss as to what to do to improve. He is sleep worse than ever through the day now. Some days I get no more than 1 hr 20 mins all day!!!

He gets so hyper by bedtime - flapping arms, super hard to settle. He can no longer settle himself ever for naps.

What do you think creations? Sorry - really had wanted to come back with positive news.

Think that developmentally things are having an effect as woke last night rolling on tummy and shuffling around in cot. Stayed awake for hour and 1/2 - only settling with feeding and patting for ages!! At least he then slept till 8.30 so he caught up on his sleep.

Do you think he can't transition? What about W2S? Should I try W2S earlier than 30 mins as that always wakes him and unable to settle.

Help much appreciated as always

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Can you post yesterdays EASY exactly as happened with any note about mood or trying to extend and how long?

Developmental issues will always disturb sleep, learning to roll is a known sleep disturbance, and even before doing it he was likely processing it in his sleep.
Many LOs resolve nap problems (so long as they are on a regular routine and suitable A time) around 6 months so you aren't far off. Mine got his naps back together at 5.5 months.

[gb18]

Hi!! So sorry I have not been here to reply. My LO was poorly which threw us off completely and then we have been away for Christmas. Hope you have had a great Christmas time.

So - here is my recent update. It has taken a while but we can now manage 3 hours A time in the morning. Sometimes a few minutes less but normally 3 hours and we STILL have 40 min naps!! Positively he tends not to cry out like he did and wakes and just shuffles around in his cot and cries after 10 mins. The problem is that I know he is tired. When I get him up he is not as happy as normal and often looks like he could sleep when I breast feed him.

I am normally putting down for 2nd nap about 2hr 45 after wu and he often cries on waking after 40 mins. Still no luck with extending. I am therefore still having to push for a 3rd nap - getting quite hard to get at times. He went through a phase again on having 3 days in a row having 2 hour naps as last nap in carseat but this stopped again after 3 days.

We often have EW now - I thought this may be due to to still having the 3rd nap but he will be too tired I think by bed if no nap as he is normally awake by about 1 from 2nd nap (roughly).

We have worked to push self settling at naps and bedtime again and this mostly happens at bedtimes and sometimes at naps now.

Hope this is enough of an update. What should I do? Feel at a loss really as kind of had all my hopes pinned on getting to 3 hour A time. He is 6 months old in one week.

Thanks so much for any ideas