OK, I give up.... (2-1 with a LSN baby)

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Just a final update for the day to say he's woke up very happy from that nap so I don't think he's currently OT (even if he is by the end of the day!)

[LovelyLilyandJack]

So, after my last post we did bedtime just after 7 but he fought it again and really didn't seem tired. We got another EW, which thinking about,  I could have predicted since we had almost exactly the same day as the one before.  Since his EW was at 4.45 though, I thought I'd try to resettle.  It took 1.5 hours again (so same as a nw,  and also the point at which he shows tired signs if I get him up from an EW).  He only ever sleeps another 40-45 minutes after a resettle, so that gave us this yesterday:

WU: 7
A: 4 hrs 50.  Yawned once after 4 hrs 15, then fussed and rubbed eyes at 4 hrs 30 so I changed his nappy and pd.  Otherwise he was very happy and relaxed during this A.
S: 1hr 20 but I had to resettle at 30 minute mark. 12.50 - 1.10
A: 4hrs 50. Again,  very happy and relaxed right up to bedtime.  Barely saw any tired signs even right before pd.
S: Bedtime at 6. Settled fine.

NW @ 4.20 for 1.5 hours again.  Back to sleep at 5.55, up again at 6.35. He is a bit more tired and fussy today - not surprisingly!  But he's mostly ok, happy playing by himself.

So i don't know if resettling the EW has caused another EW today (he may be treating the resettle as a nap?) cos usually a one nap day would sort him.  But I'm going to have him ready for his nap by 4hrs A time today so I can put him straight down when he looks tired. Though seeing as I've already resettled him this morning it might not matter now what I do! Otherwise he could be OT, but seeing as very reduced A times started this,  I'm tempted to try keeping him up after his EW one day and keeping A times long just to see if that sorts it.  I kind of wish I hadn't resettled at 2.30 ish the other day cos last time he was EW,  a cat nap til 2.30, then a 7pm bedtime sorted it.

What do you think?  Am I being completely crazy continuing with high A times?!

ETA: I pd at 4 hrs 15 those morning and he did 1hr 5 again but was definitely still tired on wakings so now I am thinking OT after all But then he perked up after lunch and seems fine again.  I don't know,  I give up....

[weaver]

So confusing..!  As I said mine weren't/aren't LSN but EWs do make me think of OT.  Hmm. I will ponder a bit and come back later.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Thanks.  Eventually I figured out with lily that a 10 hourly night was OT for her,  but a 10.5 hr night was UT and she was slightly LSN too,  but I haven't figured that out with jack yet. The last few weeks his EWs have come after a later than usual pm nap for 2 days or more,  and have fixed with an A time increase but I'm willing to try anything.  I've accepted we've got a lot more NWs and EWs to come.... Which is a shame cos I've hopefully got an interview next week for a senior position at work and I'm already at the point of tiredness where I can't remember basic words!

Thanks in advance for thinking it over x

[TB9]

I think he probably did treat the resttle as a nap, dd1 did that all the time too!  What are his Es like?  Can you post his day with his Es too?

I am just wondering if he needs a nf to sleep longer at night.  You said on the birth club thread that he is about the same size as my dd2, and dd2 is still taking 6-8oz at night because she is such a big girl...

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yes, I think he's treating it as an UT nap too cos of the difference in mood if I resettle or not. It's the same as if he does an OT nap and then has a short A time to his next nap - it suddenly cheers him up!  Going by what I'm seeing he's possibly got background OT going on (surely but after this terrible sleep?!) but his afternoon nap is enabling him to catch up and is interfering with his night I think,  or something.   I think I could get him down earlier for his morning nap (but a bit worried about causing EW if I go too far!), and then I could aim for a cat nap earlier in the day, but I need him to wake up after 5 am really to not attempt a resettle!  He's definitely more tired in the morning than the afternoon though.

As for E's he suddenly started to sttn and added 1 or 2oz to each daytime bottle a month or so ago,  and added in an extra feed as well so I'm pretty confident he's getting everything he needs in the day.  I've tried feeding him and not feeding him at his NW/EW and he's always up for 1.5 hours regardless. It doesn't matter if I feed straight away or after an hour either.  He's exactly the same after the feed as before.  Today looked like this (with E's):

NW: 4.20, resettled 5.55.
WU: 6.35
E: 5oz @ 6.45
E: 2 tbsp muesli and a finger of toast
A: 4hrs 15
E: 5/6 oz @ 10.15
S: 10.50 - 11.55 (1hr 5). Woke crying and seemed tired, especially before lunch.

E: Lunch @ 12.30ish. Half a slice of bread with cream cheese and at least half a pear
A: 3hrs
E: 5/6 ozs @ 2.30
S: 2.55 - 3.20 (25 minutes) in the car

E: 2 baby biscuits at 4ish
A: 4 hrs 20 in the end. 
E: 8/9 oz @ 6.45
S: 7.40.  Tried to pd at 7 but he fought it and I reached my limit of sitting in his room in the dark trying to settle him since the last 2 times he napped til 3.20 he fought bedtime til 7.30. Pd again just before 7.30, he fought it again but less so.  Asleep by 7.40 I think.

[TB9]

Are you using the fastest flow nipple for his bottles?

Looking at your day,I actually wouldnt be too bothered by a 1hr nap.  I would assume maybe a bit ut, but would probably stickwith the same A for a couple more days.  That A before bed is massively long after only a 25min nap    Part of the problem with dd1 at this point was that I could never get that A after cn right, and she ended up being less ot on 1 nap days than on the days that I tried cn.  BUT I think the problem for J is getting a long nap from him!  With dd1 i always got a good am nap from her.  Even with LSN LOs I dont think 1 nap days are sustainable with 1hr20min naps, so I would work to increase that morning A until you get a decent nap length from him.

Both my girls seem to like lower A in the am, so I am not even sure the best way to transition a LO who seems to need long morning A 

[LovelyLilyandJack]

I know,  he seems to need long A's all over the place but not doing a decent nap (which could be OT?). I don't mind a 1 hour nap either but can't seem to find the point at which he'll do a longer one!  Partly though,  I think that's cos no two days are the same - he's either had a one nap day just before,  or an EW,  or has had a couple of days of lower A's for some reason.  So his A time needs are probably changing as well.

We're going out this morning at 10.45ish, so I might try a shorter first A, a cat nap at 2 / 2.30 and bed at 7 and see how that goes.  Apart from the slightly shorter morning A, that will give me a day which used to work in getting rid of EW.  If it doesn't work,  I think I'll have to assume he's OT and try some slightly shorter A's, just to rule out OT (I'm thinking that I haven't tried a morning A of 3hrs 45 yet, but have tried longer A's here). Then I think I'll have to just keep pushing that morning nap and see what we get.

His last A is confusing though.  I agreed that yesterday's was ridiculously long.  I wonder if he would have settled better if I'd tried an earlier night but in the past he's always fought an EBT unless he's only had one nap.  But that could be something else to try after today as well?

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Oh,  and he's out of his leap in a week so that might help too....

[TB9]

Could you go back to short am at a set time, and if he refuses the nap then go for a 1 nap day?  What A gave you the longest nap this week?  Was it 4hr45min?  If it was around that then I would try 5hrA in an am if he refuses cn, then maybe 4hr30min before bed.  So your day would look something like this assuming 6am wakeup

6am wakeup
9:30-10 nap
1:30-3 nap
7:30 bed

And if he refuses cn
6am wakeup
11-1 nap (hopefully)
5:30 bed

I just had a thought lastnight that switching to long pm may be perpetuating ews if he needs more A time in the am

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Aah yes, the switch could be a factor.  I think from today that he's OT as well - he did 1hr this morning after 3 hrs 50 A time but cried after 30 minutes. He resettled himself but then fell asleep in the buggy after only 3 hrs A time in the middle of a shop,  which is VERY unlike him!  Of course he only did 35 minutes cos he won't do a decent nap when out,  and now has had a very long A til bed again cos we were at a birthday party this afternoon

So the lower A times you suggested could help,  yes, and be a good routine going forward as well.  Will that be enough to get him over OT do you think,  or should I just let him sleep as long as he likes?  No idea how to get over OT when he's so sensitive to too much daytime sleep.
..

[TB9]

I would let him sleep for his pm nap, or start by capping am nap at 45min, but be ready to cap shorter if he needs it once he recovers.  You should aim to have the short am nap more of a ut nap so that he doesn't get ot.  If you push him to a regular A and then cap the nap he will be more likely to end up ot by the end of the day, or over the long term.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

If you push him to a regular A and then cap the nap he will be more likely to end up ot by the end of the day, or over the long term.

That could well be what's been going on.... To be honest I find it really hard to know if he's OT or what,  but think it's probably more likely after such rubbish sleep lately,  and has woken at the 30 minute mark a lot this week,  whereas he normally does 35-40 minutes if he's UT. He handles it really well though and even if he wakes crying hard,  he's smiling within a minute of the lights going on. We'll see what tonight brings.  Today is the first day I've been able to address any under tiredness,  with no late cat naps or resettling from EW to factor in. 

I don't know,  what do you think?  UT or OT? Or make a call after tonight?!

Just to confuse things he napped a lot earlier today,  and settled fine for an EBT.  His last A was 4.5 hours after an early 35 minute nap though! (In the buggy - he never does more than this when out).

[TB9]

I think he will very likely be ot from the short nap + long A time today.  Once you are able to get back to the short am, long pm you coukd probably judge better what is going on.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

He did an 11 hour night last night after that long A before bed and no EW resettle!  Still up at 5.30 cos we did an EBT, but still,  11 hours!  He did cry out at around 1 and 3 though so probably a bit OT?

I'm going to try the day you suggested,  tink, and see where that gets us. He obviously needs a bit more sleep in the afternoon than 30 minutes at lunchtime (!) but a decent A time til bed too. Cos he's probably a bit OT though,  I'm going to stick with a morning A of 3hrs 30 and do 45 minutes this morning. Do you think?  Hopefully then he'll wake closer to 6 tomorrow and I can move towards a set nap time like you suggested.