Author Topic: 9 mo drop DF: shorten BF + GR? take advantage of weekly 'tired night'?  (Read 1563 times)

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Offline liveandlove

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We are chipping away at our LOs sleep problems one by one with the great information, help, and support from these boards.  A real lifesaver!  We have donated to the site and will do so again!

Our BFed 9 mo is now down to 2 NF, 11ish and 3ish.  I would like to drop the 3ish one, NF2.  I'm not sure about our approach, described below, and could use some help, please. 

1. "No earlier than" approach.  He often cries before the 11ish or 3ish (used to be 11:30 ish and 3:30 ish, that tells me something) feeds.  When he wakes before these times, DH tries to soothe him to sleep so we don't reward him for waking.  If not sleep, at least calm.  Often, as last night, he cries harder and harder until he sounded completely desperate and nowhere near sleep.  So I fed him.  I wasn't willing to let him scream until collapse.

2. Dream feed- the point is to sneak in while he's asleep, right?  Not to let him wake first.  Rarely seem to achieve this.  If it's hard to tell if he woke before I got there, I feed him anyway.  By the time my eyes adjust, he might be awake or if sleeping restlessly, he wakes as I approach.

3. Reducing feed with Gentle Removal - Since I BF, I can't measure less milk or dilute it, so I count the minutes.  He consistently finishes around 6-7 min, but it also takes 3 min for letdown.  I plan to try every 3 days to stop one minute sooner before doing the first unlatch.  If he cries, I let him relatch, wait 10-30 s and then try unlatching again; repeat until he acquiesces.  I may not have done it quite right these first few times, but it seemed he just kept coming back for more until he got his fill.  Since his wakings are relatively regular, it shouldn't be hunger.  My hope is he'll eventually learn it's not worth it and lose interest in this feeding.

Should we expect Gentle Removal to take weeks?  Would an alternative be to move DF2 earlier until it merges with DF1?  Or can you give me some tips to make GR more effective/ stay the course?  He almost never stays asleep to 7 AM target WU anyway, so I wonder if moving DF2 earlier would make EW worse.

Special circumstances:
A.  Being sick.  When they're sick or teething, is it recommended to give them comfort even if it's AP and extra nursing?  He has a cold, just a runny nose.  Doesn't seem to bother him, may have made him a little cranky, a little more tired. The runny nose doesn't seem to make it hard to breathe/nurse.  He's kind of teething, but I haven't noticed any extra fussing.  He barely notices shots, so he's pretty low-key.  In other words, no special treatment for the cold/teething seems called for.

B. Special tired night.  This a big one.  Once a week he has an activity (just started) that seems to leave him pretty tired.  He doesn't climb in the bath or squirm being dressed for bed, and he stayed asleep until I lifted him! for both dream feeds!  This is huge and I wonder if/how I can take advantage of it.  Could I see if he'll sleep through and skip the second DF?  Would that backfire on non-activity nights?  What should I expect/do if he does wake up for the second DF on activity night, or if not on tired night, then on the next night?

Last night he didn't seem too hungry at DF2.  I gave him a lot of chances then finally put him in his crib.  Seemed OK briefly, then yelled.  Louder and louder, unflagging, until again we couldn't take it anymore and fed him.  He did eat then and slept well.

Many thanks for help and support!   :)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 12:29:10 pm by liveandlove »

Offline Layla

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Re: 9 mo drop DF: shorten BF + GR? take advantage of weekly 'tired night'?
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2013, 11:18:31 am »
Hi there,

I don't personally have experience with dropping a BF by shortening BF or GR but hopefully i can still be of some sort of help or at least offer support :)

My understanding is that you reduce the time they spend feeding so if it takes him 6-7 mins to feed then you would end the feed at 5mins for a couple of nights and then to 4mins, etc.. Is this what you're doing now? Is he eating from both sides at the moment?

Ideally they aren't meant to be awake for the DF but i am a little confused...is he sometimes not waking up and you still go in and try and feed him? (tired night example)

Would you be able to post how often he eats during the day? Would you also be able to post his nap schedule? Does he go to sleep on his own or does he need help going down?



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Offline liveandlove

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Re: 9 mo drop DF: shorten BF + GR? take advantage of weekly 'tired night'?
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2013, 12:14:59 pm »
Thank you so much Layla!  In the wee hours it's easy to doubt everything!  I read through the boards thinking advice and a similar example for dropping a BF DF must be there but hadn't found it.   I found one whose LO woke at 12 and 4--and if she got him to skip the 12, he just slept through until 4.  Not our guy!  :/    Louder and more desperate--and if awake after ~4:30 (full or hungry), EW too.

Yes, on tired night I DF him even if asleep because I didn't want the possible EW.  Tempted to skip DF2, not sure if that would have no effect on non tired nights or backfire with more EW every night.  Do you think I should try dropping DF2 those nights?  Every night DF2 is on just one side.  I noticed some wakings 1-2 min before either DF.  So it's not only habit, he's now anticipating?

Yes, your description of dropping a BF by reducing the time by a minute every few nights is what I started doing.  It's such a short time, only 3-4 min eating after 3 min sucking.  The GR method seems to be described to eliminate the breast as SA rather than as a way to drop a feed.  In my case, at some point I'll have to unlatch him while he's fully eating (rather than after he's done eating, as GR describes), and I dread he may become really upset.  Do you know another approach for dropping BF DF? 

Last night he paused in eating after only ~4 minutes (~1 min eating), so I unlatched him.  He cried and I let him eat again. After I counted ten-one-thousand, he paused again, and I unlatched him.  Mild crying during which I said sh and sleepy phrase, eventually leaving the room.  He fell asleep soon after.

But then he woke at 5:30.  DH tried to soothe him for the next hour.  By 6:30 LO was very loud--but he didn't sound desperate or sob, so I didn't go to him.  DH got him out of the crib at 6:30.  I gave him his normal feed at 7:15.

Maybe it was too drastic a reduction but unlatching while he paused eating seemed preferable! 
I'll return to post answers to the rest of your questions.  Thank you again!  Just having someone else along helps!
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 12:25:14 pm by liveandlove »

Offline goldmom

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Re: 9 mo drop DF: shorten BF + GR? take advantage of weekly 'tired night'?
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2013, 20:58:38 pm »
We dropped a BF NF a few weeks ago. First I reduced the time nursing, to get DD used to eating less at the time (also the second NF, which for us was between 1-2 AM). She often would cry after stopping to eat so fast, but when I put her back in her crib with her lovey, she would just fall right back asleep. She was just protesting the stop, but she didn't really need to eat. Eventually I started resettling without feeding, and she wouldn't cry so much, but it took time for her to fall back to sleep (occasionally a long time). After a few days (with some EW's thrown in), she sorted herself out and started to sleep through that second feeding.

We did PD with shush pat to resettle, but she was only 7.5 months, at 9 months, PD might be you're only option (I don't think DD responds to pats anymore)

Good Luck!

Offline liveandlove

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Re: 9 mo drop DF: shorten BF + GR? take advantage of weekly 'tired night'?
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2013, 02:40:30 am »
Goldmom: Thank you for chiming in!  It helps immensely to hear from someone who's done it successfully.  Thanks for helping me anticipate some rough spots.

I do a kind of wiwo, and DH is ready to help too.  We'll be away from home for Thanksgiving--the change of scene might help break old habits, I hope!

Thank you for the description of what worked for you and how it went --and thank you most of all for the encouragement!

Offline goldmom

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Re: 9 mo drop DF: shorten BF + GR? take advantage of weekly 'tired night'?
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2013, 13:43:52 pm »
Beware of change of scenes, they did not work out well with DS at this age. Hoping for the best with DD too as we will also be going away.

Offline liveandlove

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Re: 9 mo drop DF: shorten BF + GR? take advantage of weekly 'tired night'?
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2013, 18:34:35 pm »
Last night was the second night in a row where GR definitely cut DF2 short--and it went OK!  At least that part did.   Just like the first time, he cried and I relatched him once for 10 s, then unlatched a final time.  A little protest in the crib and LO went to sleep.  But just as before, he woke at 5:30.  Loud but not hungry.   DH handles EWs and this time chose to hold LO to sleep: 20 min in DH's arms, but awake again as soon as he was laid in the crib.

EAS today:
5:30 WU
6:00-6:20 CN in DH's arms
7:15 BF (usual time) - ate a lot
8:15? solids.  Ate little (prob already tired)
9:35-10:10 N1 (has taken N1 this late after EW before, but today definitely OT)
crying hunger
10:45 BF

First nap today was too late--we've now had a handful of poor nap days for various reasons.  Earlier this month we had a wonderful run where both naps of the day were > 1 hour--I was jubilant!  I hope we can get back to that.

I was dumb today when he woke up from the short (OT) morning nap at 10:10 crying badly.  He seemed hungry, but usually he eats around 11:30 or 11:40 and I was foolishly worried about throwing his EAS off.  After 30 min of trying to distract him, he was happy as soon as I fed him.  I felt cruel: surely I could have found another way to adjust EAS today.  And duh, better to add calories in the day.

As it is, if N2 doesn't go well I plan to time a shopping trip so he may CN on the way home.  I'm hoping the short N1 doesn't cascade into a bad day/trend and more AP...

Offline goldmom

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Re: 9 mo drop DF: shorten BF + GR? take advantage of weekly 'tired night'?
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2013, 20:25:09 pm »
What time is your usual wakeup? When we got EW's when dropping the second NF I would AP by cosleeping the last 30/45 minutes of the night (we like to start our day at 6:30). After a few days she wasn't EWing anymore, I guess once she got used to not eating till later. For me a big trick is trying to keep your LO sleeping so they're not used to starting the day earlier. And if I would move, she would wake up, since it's a very light sleep at this point. So putting back in the crib likely wouldn't work.

Not sure why you got an OT nap, doesn't seem like such a long A time from WU after the "catnap" at 6:20, but it can be hard to tell. Hopefully the rest of your day is good. After a short nap, you'll probably have to shorten the next A time to get a good second nap.

Lately we've been doing a 1 hour AM nap and a 1+ hour PM nap (capped at 4 PM if it ends that late). At 9 months it's possible that 2 long naps aren't going to happen anymore.

I try to feed on WU from a nap, even if it's a short nap, I don't worry about spacing bottles/nursing anymore since we're on solids anyways.

Offline liveandlove

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Re: 9 mo drop DF: shorten BF + GR? take advantage of weekly 'tired night'?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2013, 16:17:46 pm »
Wow, I am surprised that holding her to sleep didn't cause later expectations--I  seriously worry any prop would become AP, as we have fallen into so much AP through LO's lifetime!  Good to know I might not necessarily be solving one problem just to cause another one!

Yesterday's PM nap went OK, thank goodness!  Sleep and feeds were off in the evening, but at least a decent N2 was had.

I was so hopeful at how progress has been going.  Last night, again for DF1 he woke up a few minutes early and was insistent--he's anticipating.  :/  Then for DF2, I actually caught him asleep.  Yes!  He paused after only 3 min--I don't think letdown had even happened yet, but I still unlatched him.  After all, this feed is supposedly habit.  Didn't have to relatch him, he calmed down in the crib.  Yes!

...Then he started to make some noises, then yells, like the ones before he naps.  From there things got worse, and worse, and worse.

He started crying hard.  Knowing he probably hadn't gotten milk before, I fed him (caved in?).   After a few minutes of off and on (normal for him) during which he got some milk, I let his last unlatch be the end.

I don't know if it was because he was more awake before this feed, but he got so upset.  Just cried his hardest cry and didn't stop.  I'd already fed him...at this point to feed him again would be to increase DF2, not the direction I wanted to go.

He cried so hard.  PU he subsided, but each PD was worse.  He howled, and flailed.  I was really upset too.

Since each PD seemed to upset him more, I stopped PU.  I just sat there and shhed while he cried his heart out.  I didn't want him to feel abandoned if I left, but I wonder if staying was just as cruel, since he could see me not responding.  After a long time he fell asleep until WU. 

I hoped GR would avoid this heartache (for him and me!).   I felt like not giving in--in the name of being consistent with the new way--caused so much suffering.  But I thought giving in would undo everything.  Maybe the regression wouldn't have been so bad?  Maybe it's more important to love him than to make him drop DF2 quickly.

There seemed like no good choices last night.  We'll never know if it paid off, I just hope tonight we can continue gradual reduction and GR.  I guess I'll make sure he gets some milk before unlatching.  I've no other ideas. 

Thanks for support.

Offline goldmom

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Re: 9 mo drop DF: shorten BF + GR? take advantage of weekly 'tired night'?
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2013, 01:07:02 am »
Hugs, very often there's a regression after a few good nights. It's ok to give in some nights, I try not to go more than 2 days in a row with an AP if possible. When trying to stop a NF many people try the "any AP besides feeding" to get their LO back to sleep, since often the feeding is the hardest thing to stop!

As long as you stay with him he knows that you are there, so he can still cry, but you haven't abandoned him, which is very important, and even though he's crying he still knows you are there with him while you are teaching him. It's really hard, hopefully you won't have many nights like this.

If he's not waking up for the second NF, I wouldn't DF him, you are trying to teach him to sleep through this time, so you want to try not to disturb him if possible. Chances are at this age he doesn't really need to eat now, that you have to catch him before he wakes up hungry. You're just trying to teach him that now's not the time to eat.

Offline Layla

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Re: 9 mo drop DF: shorten BF + GR? take advantage of weekly 'tired night'?
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2013, 02:50:28 am »
How are you going?



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