Re: Please help, multiple NWs and naps are changing too, Can't do it anymore

[AMJ]

Hi everyone. I am so tired and confused. I apologize ahead of time if my English is not proper it is my second language. I've got so much help here before and it feels like I'm on here every day but we just can't get out of a bad streak.

For the past 2 months we've been dealing with EWs because of a move. With the help of wonderful people here we got from 2:45 am WU to 6 am which is amazing.

My DD is going to be 8 months on Dec 7th. She got her first tooth not too long ago and it wasn't bad at all as long as I gave her painkillers. Now she is probably in the process of getting her second one and I still give her the painkillers so she shouldn't be in pain.
We are also being treated for candida. I have extremely painful nipples during nursing but I don't think she is in pain because I only noticed one little white spot in her mouth. We had to deal with candida multiple times before and she only really was in pain once when it was all over her mouth. Although few times in the past few days she cried during E.

Also my DD was using shushing as a prop not so long ago. I used to shush/pat her to sleep (not actually pat her but just have my hand on her). About 1.5 weeks ago I started to shush/pat her only if she cried and leave the room when she calmed down and for about 4 days we had a great success with it. I would lay her in the crib, say the key words kiss her and leave the room. Few times I had to come back only once and do the same thing and she would go to sleep. But now everything changed. She wants me there to shush her to S and have my hand on her. She doesn't really cry but more whines very loudly and annoyed. If I start to leave when she calmed down she starts to whine/cry right away so I'm not sure if I should keep leaving and then come back or don't even leave the room? If I do leave she keeps whining/crying and sometimes quiets down as soon as I come in the room ( not sure here what to do also- either keep coming to her or leave right away) or very shortly after I talk or shush/pat her.

First her nights went down south. She started to wake 4-5 times a night and whine/cry. And if I feed her or just try to resettle she might fall asleep easy but then few mins later wakes up with a cry and she might fall back asleep and wake up again few mins later. So I have to keep going back in and try to resettle.

Now her naps are effected too. The same things are happening during naps as during night time. We just got the right A times for her and I though 'wow finally we have something good here' but I guess I got happy too soon.

Also I should probably mention that I wake her at 1 hr for the first nap if she doesn't wake on her own because this is how we were able to fix her EWs. The second nap is about 1.5 hrs long. She used to sleep 3 hrs during the day before I started to cut the morning nap to 1 hr ( morning nap used to be 1 hr 45 mins- 2 hrs long and afternoon nap was 1 hr - 1 hr 15 mins). But now no matter if her second A is 3 hrs 10 min or 3 hrs 25 min or 3 hrs 45 min she sleeps about 1.5 long and wakes at about 35 mins into it or 1 hr into it. Not sure what to make of this either?

And she woke up early today too so I'm terrified that her EWUs are back.
I normally give her her first nap now always at 9:15 just to keep her day the same.
Please ignore our E during second A. I know there is too much of E but I was going to get rid of it when we got our day fixed.

Here are our last 2 days

Nov 26 2013

6:05 WU crying E A (3 hrs 10 mins)
7:30 E oatmeal pear water
8:00 offered breast but refused
9:15 S (1 hr )
9:45 WU cried but self soothed

10:20 WU I woke her E A(3 hrs 25 mins)
11:30 E banana apple water
11:45 E breast
1:10 asked for breast E
1:42 awake in the crib
1:45 S ( 1 hr 30 mins)

3:15 WU tried shushing but couldn't resettle E A (3 hrs 35 mins)
4:45 E oatmeal apple carrots water
6:00 E
6:18 awake in the crib whining the crying. When I come is she either stops crying right away or shortly after it's like she just wants me there. When I start leaving she starts again and it's more of a loud annoyed whining/crying UT?
6:50 BT

8:50 WU crying shush/pat pu/pd
9:15 S

9:54 WU crying self soothed shortly
9:57 WU crying E
10:10 S

11:20 WU crying Shush/pat
11:28 S

12:50 WU crying Advil E
1:03 S

4:10 WU crying E but starts to suck then starts to cry and calmed down and starts to suck again then crying
4:20 in the crib crying whining. Closing eyes then opening and crying on and off 4:30 S

Nov 27 2013

5:30 ish 5:40 ish WU whining crying A(3 hrs 45/55 mins)
5:55 E
7:30 E little mango and banana peach oatmeal water
8:00 E breast was crying during eating
9:10 awake in the crib S right away
Then few mins later woke up crying/whining and the same thing is happening as always. I ended up sitting by her crib shush/pating to S
9:25 S (1 hr)

10:25 WU on her own E A (3 hrs 40 mins)
12:00 E little sweet potato water then offer breast but ate a little
1:30 asked for breast E
2:00 awake in the crib I left she started crying and flipped on tummy so I placed her back on her back. Left. Same thing again but I shush/pated a bit longer after she calmed down then left.
2:08 S (35 mins+ about 50 mins)
2:44 WU whining/crying
2:50 shush/pat said key words. Had to shush and have my hand on her till she S
2:55 S

3:38 WU couldn't resettle E A( 3 hrs 30 mins)
5:00 E oatmeal apple sweet potato
6:25 E
6:50 awake in the crib whining crying had to come in twice
7:10 S


Please please somebody tell me what's going on with my DD. I just can't keep going like this. Why did she suddenly stopped sleeping at night and during naps? I feel like every day I am trying to figure out what's going on and every day there is something new.

[AMJ]

sorry i just realized that my previous post is very long.

could DD be going through SA? here is how our night and day went:
Nov 27 continuation

7:10 BT

9:27 WU crying DH shush/pat
10:20 S

1:35 WU E Advil
1:50 S

5:30 WU


Nov 28 2013

5:30 WU A (3 hrs 45 mins)
5:45 E
7:30 E apple oatmeal
8:00 E breast
9:08 awake in the crib. Closes her eyes and stopes moving but few mins later starts crying and this happens few times.
9:15 S (1 hr)

10:20 WU on her own E A(3 hrs 40 mins)
11:45 E apple carrots banana water
12:10 E breast
1:20 asked for breast E
1:45 awake in the crib moving then whining then crying. Moving around a lot. Had to shush/pat to sleep
2:00 S was aiming for 1:50 (45 mins +30 min, 30 mins of resettling)
2:45 WU crying tried to shush/pat and pu/pd but wouldn't resettle. When picked her up she would calm down shortly but as soon as pd starts crying. Then I decided to get her up and when I picked her up and shushed in her ear just to calm her down she closed her eyes and started to fall asleep so I ended up holding her while she slept for 30 min. 3:15 S

3:45 WU E A(3 hrs 15 mins because of the short 2nd nap)
5:00 E avocado and sweet potato
6:25 E
6:57 awake in the crib. Fell asleep right away on her own.
7:00 BT


At least we got a good night which possibly happened because DH was resettling DD??

But I just don't understand that she self soothed for the morning nap and slept for 1 hr,but she couldn't self sooth for the second nap and woke up after 45 mins. How can this be if it's SA?
She also fell asleep very fast on her own at BT. Am I missing something?

I am also afraid of creating props like holding her through the nap or shush/patting her to S. how can i go about it?
Thank yo in advance.

[jessmum46]

I'd say OT, actually.  Her A times are really quite on the long side for her age, especially after a short morning nap and the fact you are getting so many wakings, especially in the first few hours after BT suggest that she is OT.  Her total A time for the day is also pretty long for an 8 month old, usually 10h as a minimum but closer to 11h on most of the days you posted.  The fact she isn't settling well for her second nap and waking mid-nap also says OT to me.  It happens easily at this age, especially when teething and it may be you just have to pull back the A time for a bit to let her catch up again.

If I were you I would stop capping the morning nap for a day or two and just let her sleep as long as she wants.  And again for the afternoon nap.  I'd also reduce her A time after a 1h am nap to something much closer to 3h, especially if she is up early.  You can't just look at the length of nap and A time afterwards, you have to think about how long she was awake beforehand.  For example, if she was awake 3h before her morning nap, she might be able to handle 3h30 afterwards.  But if she was awake nearly 4h before her morning nap she will be more tired and therefore not able to cope with such a long A time - does that make sense?

You could also try an early BT, even if naps are good and see if that helps her get back on track x

[AMJ]

Hi thank you so much for your reply.

I know her morning A is very long- up to 3 hrs 45 min on most days (sometimes 3 rhs 30 mins)and her morning nap is only 1 hr but that's how we were able to get her to WU around 5;30 am instead of 4 or 5 am.
and I agree with you that she has long days but every time i try to give her EBT she fights it and falls asleep close to 3 hrs 30 mins of A. Also EBT always means EWU for her. And 10.5 hrs is the most she sleeps at night.
Could she just be one of the babies who needs less sleep?

If I were you I would stop capping the morning nap for a day or two and just let her sleep as long as she wants.  And again for the afternoon nap.  I'd also reduce her A time after a 1h am nap to something much closer to 3h, especially if she is up early.  You can't just look at the length of nap and A time afterwards, you have to think about how long she was awake beforehand.  For example, if she was awake 3h before her morning nap, she might be able to handle 3h30 afterwards.  But if she was awake nearly 4h before her morning nap she will be more tired and therefore not able to cope with such a long A time - does that make sense?

yes that makes a lot of sense. I will start with giving her shorter 2nd A to see how the 2nd nap goes and go from there. Thank you so much!!!!! I really appreciate it!

[jessmum46]

Good luck, I hope it goes ok.  Yes she could certainly be a lower sleep needs baby, but I would expect if she was getting all the sleep she needs right now that her naps and nights would be less disturbed.  Fingers crossed you'll be back on track in a day or two

[AMJ]

our nights got way better since DH resettled DD. Now she wakes at her habitual time around 9:30 and when DH goes in all he has to say is 'you are ok" and she goes back to sleep. Then she only wakes once to E.

Today she woke up at 5:20 am so i moved the 1st naps back from 9:15/9:30 to 9:00 am. and i let her sleep. She woke up on her own at 10:30. So now I am wondering how long should I keep her second A since she had 1.5 nap (not 1 hr as usual)?
Thanks

[jessmum46]

I would have done her normal second A time, 3h30 or so?  How did it go?

[AMJ]

It went pretty good. Her second A was 3 hrs 10 mins and she finally slept 3 hrs total today. I just hope she wakes at a reasonable time tomorrow morning. I'm thinking of doing the same thing tomorrow and then then day after I will go back to cutting her first nap to 1 hr and then cutting her second A to 3 hrs.  Here was our day today

Nov 30 2013

5:20 WU whining then crying on her tummy E A (3 hrs 45 mins)
7:30 E banana peach oatmeal water
8:00 E breast
8:53 awake in the crib jolting OT shush/pat to S
9:05 S(1 hr 30 min)

10:35 WU on her own playing A(3 hrs 10 min)
10:45 E
11:30 E little carrots sweet potato water
12:00 E breast
1:25 E breast
1:35 awake in the crib whining/ crying, shush/pat to S
1:45 S (1 hr 30 mins)

3:15 WU on her own E A (3 hrs 20 mins)
4:15 E apple oatmeal with green beans water
6:05 E
6:20 awake in the crib. Had to come in and leave a few times to settle her
6:35 almost fell asleep
6:37 almost fell asleep
6:42 BT

9:47 WU crying DH walked in said 'you are ok shush' walked out. She calmed down and almost fell asleep. The started to cry, DH back in shush/pat
9:57 S
10:05 WU whining DH go back few more times and didn't leave for few mins after she resettled but as soon as he leave she cries.
10:35 he left

11:05 WU crying E
11:18 S

2:35 started to WU on an off
2:45 WU crying
2:48 E
3:00 S

5:40 WU

Only not sure why this time she couldn't resettle at 9:45. For the past few days all she needed was for DH to walk in and say 'you are ok' but tonight it took longer.
Tomorrow I will do W2S because this is second time she wakes at 9:45 pm.

Thank you very much! I'll let you know how everything goes

[AMJ]

today things changed on their own. She woke up at 5:40 am which is good for us. At 8:30 started to yawn and rub her eyes so I put her in the crib at 9:00 (usually it would it 9:30 ish since our morning A is usually 3 hrs 45 min). Then she woke up on her own in 1 hr crying and then I couldn't calm her down, she kept screaming until i started to sing to her and rock her in the chair. Why do you think this happened OT still? even after a better naps yesterday and shorter by 10 mins A in the morning?

here is our day so far

Dec 1 2013

5:40 WU crying then playing A(3 hrs 35 mins)
5:55 E
7:30 E cucumber and banana peace oatmeal
8:15 E breast
9:00 awake in the crib because started to yawn and rub her eyes at 8:30
9:15 S(1 hr)

10:15 WU on her own crying and kept crying. When I picked her up to feed she started screaming. I couldn't calm her down for some time. Why? Wasn't rested enough? A(2 hrs 45 mins)
11:30 E sweet potato and banana water
12:00 E breast
12:50 yawning so wind down
12:55 awake in the crib. Shushed a bit and she fell asleep easy
1:00 S (1 hr 10 min)

2:10 WU tried to resettle till 2:30. She almost resettled twice. then tried rocking her but she was screaming. E A (3 hrs 25 mins)
3:30 E apple oatmeal with green bean water
4:35 E
4:55 awake in the crib. Couldn't fall asleep, crying moving, shush pat to S
5:35 is BT

8:40 WU crying E
8:56 S

11:45 WU whining the crying DH resettling but didn't work. Said she is hungry E Advil
12:30 S

5:20 WU

I think we are in big trouble. I don't even know what to do. I was never able to get to take an extra nap so I aimed for EBT ( and that's how we ended up before with 4 am WUs)but she couldn't fall asleep for a long time. i dont know what to do anymore. I dont know what her As should be anymore? I feel like a failure. I've been trying to fix her routine for 2 months and we are back to where we started.
DH keeps saying that she is UT and we should stick to the same As and nap times as before no matter what and eventually it will resolve intself

[jessmum46]

Just remind me are you medicating before bedtime?  There are quite a lot of wakings and it does make me wonder if there is some discomfort complicating things at the moment.  (((Hugs))), you're not a failure, baby sleep is tricky and inconsistent and you are doing your best in a tough situation

I do still think she is probably OT though.  I know that long first A time is what you feel helped your EWs, but I think at the moment it is just too much for her after disturbed and short nights.  But equally you don't want to encourage the EWs by doing too early a nap.....hmmm....

Just a thought - what personality type is she?  How would you feel about trying set naps if she is normally fairly easy-going?  They can be hard in the beginning but if you can push through the OT it can be a great way of regulating LOs sleep.

[AMJ]

Thank you for your kind words!
Yes I am giving her a pain reliever before BT and naps to rule out discomfort.

We used to think that she is spirited before she was on a routine but now I'm not even sure. She is a very good baby when she is rested. She is an angel when she gets her sleep. I will take the personally test again.

Just an update.

Dec 2 2013

5:20 WU A (3 hrs 40 mins)
5:30 crying E
7:00 E cucumber and banana peach oatmeal water
7:50 E breast
9:00 S (1 hr 50 mins)had to shush/pat
9:30 cried but self soothed
10:05 cried but self soothed

10:50 WU on her own E A (3 hrs 20 mins)
12:00 didn't want apple and carrots
E breast
1:30 E breast
2:00 awake in the crib crying shush/pat to S
2:10 S (30 mins)

2:40 WU whining I tried to resettle her but couldn't E A (2 hrs 50 mins) very unhappy and tired
3:50 E apple oatmeal with green beans and carrots water
5:00 E
5:20 crib had to shush/pat to sleep
5:30 BT

8:15 WU whining then crying E
8:25 S

11:00 WU
11:05 E
11:17 S

3:20 WU whining the playing the whining/crying
3:35 E was wide awake and flopping her arms and legs. When gave a breast wasn't too hungry just wanted to suck. From time to time would stop and cry. Shushed and said 'it's sleepy time' while E
4:00 S

5:50 WU playing then crying E A

what do you think happened with the 2nd nap? was she really OT? but her A was 3 hr 20 mins and she had a good 1st nap. How long do you think i should've kept her 2nd A?

And what set times for naps would you recommend ?

I was very worried that her 3:20 am WU was going to be an EWU because she was wide awake. I am worried that letting her sleep as long as she wants during 1st nap is not going to lead to that.
Thank you very much!

[jessmum46]

Yes, OT.  Her first A time is still really long and although her first nap was a good length, it was broken.  3h20 is an appropriate A time for a well-rested 8 month old, but we know your LO is tired at the moment.  The combination of a long-for-age first A time and a broken first nap means that 3h20 is likely just too much for her second A right now.  If you're going to stick with that really long first A I think you need to be prepared for her second A to be nearer 3h, perhaps even a touch shorter until she is better rested.  Can you follow her cues for a day or so?  Or does she not show any?

Letting her sleep as long as she wants for her first nap will encourage EWs if her first A time is too short.  But it isn't, if anything it's too long.  Normally if you are going to cap the first nap you do a shorter than normal first A time (ie aim UT) so LO isn't completely exhausted still when you wake them up.  Something like 3h A, 1h nap, 3h A, long nap, 3.5h A.

If she is spirited I wouldn't recommend set naps at this age, it may well spiral into even more OT.  But you can always try it if you want to - you know her best   Basically you set times based on age-appropriate A times starting at your ideal or acceptable WU time.  So if 6.30am is an ok start to the day, you might try set naps at 9.30-10.30 (wake her) and then 1.30-3/3.30 with BT 6.30/7ish.  You allow a small leeway of 15 mins early for naptime if LO has an EW or the previous nap is short, but otherwise stick with set times.  BT could come up to 30 mins early if naps are a mess.  That's just an example, you'd set times on the basis of what you think she can handle when well-rested

Does that help?

[AMJ]

Thank you for explaining everything really well. It does make sense.

I will try to follow her cues today. She does show them but every time I follow them I still get short naps so I'm not sure if it is habitual or not. So what are my other options at the moment , other then set naps, to help her be well rested? just follow her cues?

And because she is OT would you just let her sleep as much as she needs for morning nap even with short morning A just to let her catch up on sleep or you would still wake her at 1 hr to prevent EWU?

[AMJ]

DH and I just did the personality test and we both got that DD is a textbook baby. If I understood correctly I answered the questions about her when she is well rested right?

The only thing is that she doesn't reach all the millestones on time like the textbook description says. She also can get off schedule easily like a touchy baby. From spirited description she notices other kids before they notice her and she lets me know when she pooped by whining/ crying. It looks like
she has a little of all types in her.

[AMJ]

Our days and night are getting worse and worse. She had an EWU this morning and I couldn't resettle her. It use to take me usually 1.5-1.75 hrs to resettle her but today it just wasn't happening.

Dec 3 2013

5:50 WU playing then crying E A (3 hrs 50 mins)
7:45 E cucumber banana peach oatmeal water. Offered breast but she refused
9:20 awake in the crib. Falling asleep with minimal shushing.
9:30 S
9:33 WU crying shush/pat
9:40 ish S(45/50 min + 30 mins)
10:30 WU crying shush/pat for 30 mins to get into deep sleep
10:35 S

11:05 WU tried to shush/pat for 20 mins but couldn't resettle E A(2 hrs 40 mins)
12:15 E avocado
12:35 E breast
1:30 in the crib
1:45 S ( 1 hr 5 mins) shush/ pat for 30 min and then shush for the whole nap.

2:53 WU E A (2 hrs 40 mins)
3:50 E apple oatmeal green beans and carrots milk
4:50 E
5:10 crib shush/pat
5:30 BT

6:40 WU crying shush/pat DH
6:45 S

8:00 WU crying E
8:10 S

10:25 WU whining
10:35 E
10:45 S

1:50 WU playing then crying
2:00 E
2:10 Crib awake
2:20 crying. I went in the room and said key words kissed her rubbed her back and head and left
2:22 S

2:45 WU playing then crying shush/pat
2:50 S shushed for 30 mins


Dec 4 2013

4:50 WU playing
5:10 crying pooped diaper change
Shush/pat pu/pd till 6:30
6:30 E tried resettle again
7:00 out of the crib
7:40 E
7:50 S(40 mins)

8:30 WU playing it couldn't resettle E A
Aiming for 11:15 S so A(2 hrs 45 mins)


I am not sure what I should've done for EW? Should I kept resettling no matter what even if it took me longer then 2 hrs to resettle?

Why was her 1st nap only 40 mins? Still OT even with 3 hrs on morning A?


Also she is gonna end up with veeery early BT ( around 3 pm or so) Should I try and give her an extra nap?
Thank you