At my wits end - bad nights and v early wakings at 15 weeks

[jessmum46]

What I would do is set a limit by which point the catnap should have started, say 5.30pm.  6.30pm is really, really late for a nap, especially if it's been a long A time beforehand and will just end up making LO overtired from too long a day and late BT.  Personally if you've tried for a catnap for 20-30 mins, it's getting close to 5.30pm and it's not happening, I would cut your losses, start the BT routine and get LO to bed for the night. 

Have you read the info on the 3-2 transition here: All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

Do you think you could possibly be mistaking tired cues for him wanting to nurse?  I may be way off, but it's very common at this age and I did something very similar myself.  I just notice that he's having those extra feedings at about the times where he probably needs a nap.  Do you think he could be seeking comfort to settle himself down? 

[lhurley168]

Yes, I've noticed I've lost track of his tired cues and even hunger cues. Since he's started to become more active with his hands and bringing things to his mouth constantly it's hard to tell when he's hungry or just needing the stimulation. I've been watching him closer the past couple days and I've caught his tired cues. We've also picked back up on the EASY routine and he's been going down for naps just fine. Here's what today looked like:
E7:30a
A
S9:15a
E11:30a
A
S12:45p
E2:00p
A
S4:00p
A4:40p
E5:00p
A
S5:30
A6:00
E7:00
S7:30 but did not actually fall asleep until 8:30.

I know my afternoons need work. He just gets so resistant to sleep. Absolutely fights it. Is that because he's over tired all the time? He also has a loud mantra cry that sometimes lasts a while. It's definitely not an "I need you cry" it reminds me of an animal calling of sorts. Is that his personality or because he's so tired and is letting himself settle down?

Thank you so much for your help and support. I already feel like we've had a huge turn around from where we were just last Sunday. I'm also feeling more confident in identifying what needs work.

[jessmum46]

You're doing great!!

Looking at his day it appears that he could use just a touch more A time before his second nap (I'm assuming he woke himself at 2pm?).  A 1h15 nap for us always indicated a need for maybe 5-10 mins extra A time so if the second nap is persistently around that length I would try keeping him up just a few mins longer.

In the afternoon it's not uncommon for naps to go a bit wonky and for LO to start resisting.  It's ok to APOP (accidentally parent on purpose ) the late afternoon naps if needed as they will eventually go away. It can be a good time for a car trip or stroller walk?  I would try to stick with three naps (rather than four) unless all naps are short if you can - if he's not a 2h napper (DD never was) then you may find you need a shorter day and longer night combination, or need to aim for three decent naps in order to be able to manage a 12h day.  I think he probably was just a bit OT at bedtime from those late short naps and what you could have done instead would have been to skip a fourth nap and shoot for an early BT of around 6.30pm or so.  But no days are perfect, not on my experience anyway!!

It sounds as if you have a good idea of his mantra cry - yes for some babies it can be extremely loud!  It's like they just need to let it all out before they can relax.  If you know when he really needs you then it's fine to leave him to shout his mantra when he feels like it

[KookyK]

Just realised this was my thread from a while back!

I took a break from here and nap extending as I was so disheartened. So for a while he was doing 4 naps of 40 mins each day. The last one he woke sad but mostly quite cheerful. Nights were no worse or better.

I'm back trying to extend his naps again and sort the nights.

The night wakings are not so bad during the first part of tbe night now he's over 5 months and has had some solids. But the restlessness and EWs are still the same. I'm tired but not quite so much as I now go to bed at 7.30 every night myself. But I'd like to stay up with my DH and have an evening back one day!

Our EASY is affected by the school run. He has to wait til then for his first nap which doesn't work well if he's up v early. There isn't quite time for a cot nap before we leave tho sometimes he might fall asleep in the carseat early. He always wakes from the school run carseat nap after 30 mins. I can't extend however I try.

The last nap is also similarly affected by the school run as he wakes early often. On the two days I don't pick up and he naps at home in the cot. It's better.

So nights look like this:

Bed 6.30-7ish
First feed anytime 10-12
Next feed 3-4 hours later
Always wakes around 4-4.45 resettles fairly easily sometimes with milk
Always wakes about 5-5.30 hard to resettle. Often passes wind and sometimes poos.
6.-6.20 I give up and get up!

Daytime
Nap 8.30 (earlier if we are home on weekend)
Wake 9-9.15
Nap around 10.30 or 11. He wakes half way but I can extend him. He will sleep until about 12.30
Nap 2.30 on school run. Wakes about 3. At home he naps 3pm and I try to extend him til at least 4.

He loves white noise and settles well with it. At 5am onwards tho it doesn't make much difference. He doesn't cry particularly and I don't pick him up but he thrashes, shouts, sings etc for at least an hour most mornings. I'd not mind a 5.30am start if 1) he slept the rest of the night and 2) he could nap earlier than 8.30 to recover from it.


Any ideas? Should a start a new thread?

[lhurley168]

KookyK we're in the exact same boat! Sorry if I bombarded your thread 
We were doing really well for about 2 weeks and now our sleeping patterns are just like yours to a t. So you're not alone! Idk what really works or doesn't anymore. Just when I think we're on track something else changes or goes back the same.

[KookyK]

Hi Ihurley168 - nice to have some company and know I'm not alone although I hope we both sort our wakey children soon!

Despite trying to nap extend DS did 4 short naps yday, the longest was an hour. He woke from last at 3.20 which was tricky as I knew I'd not get him down before 5pm which really is too late for a good bedtime. So he was grumpy all afternoon. Bed at 6.30pm which I steeled myself for super early wake. It was 5.30 so not much worse than usual about 30-50 mins earlier as I can sometimes resettle him at that time if bed is later.

Night waking werent too bad - bed at 6.30 (usual on/off wakes from 30-60 mins after bed), then woke 11.30, 3.30 for feeds. Wide awake and poo at 5.30. Trouble is he's tired now and school run at 8.30 and as its 7.30 no time to settle for a nap at home.

I'm sort of thinking of the school run as a catnap or not even counting it as a nap as its so short (usually 30 mins). Then aiming for longer one about 10.30/11. Up around 12-12.30. In an ideal world next nap is 3-4.30. It's good if his last nap ends around 4.30. But school run at 2.30 and getting back at 3.30 tends to mess that up.

[lhurley168]

To lengthen the first nap can you do errans or something after the school run? I think DS gets his best nap about 2 hrs after waking up. It's still not a 2 hr nap but it's better sleep than the other naps. I've also been in the situation where he was ready to nap but we had to leave in 30m so I buckled him in his carrier instead of laying him down. I did take some time to shh/pat and it actually worked. I don't know if that trick will work every time tho. Last night was still rough. We were up at 12, 2, 4, and 6 am. DH works 12 hr days and has been a grumpy papa bear lately.
Everyone in our house has been tired lately. We were coming home from a family outing and DS was asleep. DH and I knew we wouldn't be able to take a nap ourselves if we moved him inside bc he would wake up. So instead we stayed right there in the car and took a nap in the driveway. All 3 of us. Pretty comical but desperate times call for desperate measures!

[KookyK]

Lol at the car nap together!! Sorry its been rough for you. Last night was pants here too bed at 7, woke 10.30, 1.30 (but DD woke at 12.30), 3.30, 4.30 and 5.30 - big poo and awake.

Weird tho yday and today he's done some long naps and self settled. Yday 2x 1.5 hrs and a catnap. Today I took him on errands after school run (I do sometimes do this but limited success) and he woke after 30 mins. But baby massage wore him out! He's stirring now after 2 hr 20! Nt sure if to leave him but its only 1.20pm. Will wake in next 10 I tbink and try for a catnap later.

But despite ydays textbook nap day sleep was poo.

The night before after 4x 40 min naps he had a good night and even managed 7-1.30!

[jessmum46]

Sorry ladies, hadn't noticed you were back on this thread!

You may well be into 3-2 territory KookyK if he's now over 5 months.  Have you seen this?  All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months. You may be in a very common situation that happens around this age where LO wakes early for the day due to a combination of too early first nap and too short A times, leading to short naps and OT.  Its complicated!

So nights look like this:

Bed 6.30-7ish
First feed anytime 10-12
Next feed 3-4 hours later
Always wakes around 4-4.45 resettles fairly easily sometimes with milk
Always wakes about 5-5.30 hard to resettle. Often passes wind and sometimes poos.
6.-6.20 I give up and get up!

Daytime
Nap 8.30 (earlier if we are home on weekend)
Wake 9-9.15
Nap around 10.30 or 11. He wakes half way but I can extend him. He will sleep until about 12.30
Nap 2.30 on school run. Wakes about 3. At home he naps 3pm and I try to extend him til at least 4.

This is what our day started looking like around this age.  The advice I followed from ladies on here at the time was pretty much don't start the day until 6am earliest, even if that means sitting holding him in a dark room.  And then at 6am lights on, good morning!  Make a big show of it.  First A time starts from then.  Using an age-appropriate average A time of around 2h30 (at least to begin with) that means first nap at 8.30am (or obviously later if he happens to wake later).  If he has a good nap, great, do the same A time again before the second nap.  If the nap is short, make his A time 15-30 mins shorter but definitely no less than 2h.  Same again after second nap.  And then a catnap to get you to BT.  While the morning WU is so early is it possible for you to move his BT a touch earlier too?  I'm thinking more of a 12/12.5h day would be best to aim for, so that's maybe a 5.30/6pm BT.  Is that feasible?  Hopefully if he is more rested then his WU time will naturally move later, but if not at least you can try to establish a stable routine and then move it forward in increments of 15 mins a bit like DST? 

What do you think? 

[KookyK]

Thanks Jessmum there's some good ideas to try there I will report back! Esp useful about early waking but counting the start of the day from 6, I've always wondered what to do there.

Some interesting developments - three naps last week he managed 1.5-2 hrs with minimal intervention to resettle. One night he managed one stretch of 6 hrs without waking. Last night he only fed at 10pm and he didn't want milk again (tho woke and i offered it 1 and 2am but resettled woth dummy quickly) until 5ish. AND he resettled until I woke him at 7am!!! What can this all mean?! It gives me hope that things might improve!

[jessmum46]

Sounds like things are looking up!  Fingers crossed x

[lhurley168]

I got the swaddle blankets back out and that's been a huge difference. The very first night of swaddling he only woke 3x, much better than the 7 times before! Then the next two nights he only woke up 2x. Last night to my amazement he didn't wake from 8pm to 5am! DH and I have our fingers crossed for a repeat tonight!! Thank you everyone for your help

[KookyK]

Wow ihurley that's amazing!

Back to rubbish sleep here after illness and perhaps now teething. The past two nights he's been hard to get to sleep lots if angry crying tho I know he's tired. Wondered if he was struggling against swaddle so yes in the arms up woombie tonight eek. Who knows what will happen. I'm knackered. Lots of catnaps again and v early starts.