Author Topic: 8.5 mth old: NW; EW; early waking from naps....what happened?  (Read 1358 times)

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Offline Jemimah

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8.5 mth old: NW; EW; early waking from naps....what happened?
« on: December 17, 2013, 21:47:53 pm »
Back again!
DS2 is 8.5 mths old.  Is spirited, and has never been the greatest sleeper.  We had his naps 1.15 min in length without any help!!  Wow - major improvement from .5 hr naps!  Up until 2 weeks ago, we were doing 2 NF, and DS2 would still need resettling 1 or 2 other times.  This was not ideal, but doable.

We have since dropped one NF, and only feed after 2.30AM.  This was going well.  It required going in one or two times to resettle, but worth it, as we realized he was not waking up out of hunger so a good thing we dropped one of the feeds.

WELL fast forward a few weeks....now we have up to 9 NW, EW, and 2 naps that need resettling. UGH!  What happened?  This was all getting progressively worse, it did not happen overnight.  I am hoping someone's eyes can either tell me if he is OT, UT, or we are completely messed up..... ::) Should I increase A time? Decrease?  He has always had shorter naps ( never 1.5/2 hrs), but maybe he needs them?  Or maybe he doesn't?


This is what we were following up until a few weeks ago:
WU: 6.30 (BF and solids an hr later)
S: 9.45-11
A: 11(BF and solids 1 hr later)
S: 2.15-.3.30
A:3.30 (BF and solids 1.5 hrs later)
A: 6.30 (BF)
S:6.45-7
NF: 12,4 (roughly)

This is what I get now:
WU: 5 (try to resettle - can take a long time, and sometimes not successful at all - leave in crib until 6.30)
WU: 6.30(BF and solids an hr later)
S: 9.45-11 (is waking up 35 min into nap, have to resettle)
A: 11(BF and solids 1 hr later)
S: 2.15-.3.30 (is waking up 35 min nap, eyes wide open trying to get out of crib; resettle after 20 min)
A:3.30 (BF and solids 1.5 hrs later)
A: 6.30 (BF)
S:start bedtime at 6.45; fights it until 7.15-7.30
NW: Then he wakes at 8, 9, 9.30, 10.30, 12.30, 1, 2.30 (feed), 3.15, 5

With the NW he usual wakes, rolls around, start crying and if you leave it just escalates from there.  This all takes under 1 min to occur.  If you leave him, his crying gets worse.  We have done the 5 min rule as our DS1 could always put himself back to sleep.  Not so with DS2. 
DS2 takes a soother, but usually doesn't use it much at night.  I might use it to replug when resettling.
He is crawling, scooting, assisted standing and assisted walking along furniture.  He has 2 teeth.  He is not in any pain.  He is a good eater.

To resettle at night, we pick him up until he stops crying, then put him down and shh/hold him.  This usually take  under 5 min to do.

I need some solid unbroken sleep.  Any advice or schedule tweaking would be great.

Thanks

Offline Girlcrystal

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Re: 8.5 mth old: NW; EW; early waking from naps....what happened?
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2013, 04:14:27 am »
My son is the exact same age and touchy spirited.  The only advice I was given is that may help is if he wakes shortly after being put to bed at night (within 2-3 hrs) it usually means he is overtired.

Also did your son recently get very mobile? My son was walking along furniture at about 7 months and that's how he spent all his A time. When he got very mobile is A time decreased back to 2 hrs until he was used to burning all the energy cruising around. (Probably took 3-4 weeks before his A time increased again).

Best of luck!

Offline Jemimah

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Re: 8.5 mth old: NW; EW; early waking from naps....what happened?
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2013, 15:56:24 pm »
Thanks for the response, I am so glad I am not the only one dealing with this!!  Last night was another tough one - at this age getting excited when you sleep for 2 hrs straight just isn't quite right ::)

He is super mobile, and is addicted to walking along the furniture - so you are right, he is likely exhausting himself!

Any chance you could post your EASY - might give me a head start on nipping this in the bud.

Thanks!

Offline Skadiver13

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Re: 8.5 mth old: NW; EW; early waking from naps....what happened?
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2013, 18:37:03 pm »
Hi hun, wow you must be tired. So sorry you are dealing with this i"ve been there. It stinks.  Taking a look at your routine it doesn't look too bad. Is your lo  high sleep needs/low sleep needs/average sleep needs? Typically anything between 45-1.5hrs is an UT nap less than 45 is and OT nap. How long has he been on this 3hr 15min A time? Have you tried gently pushing 15min or brining it back to 3hrs to see if that makes a difference? Does he settle very quickly at nap time like he's pooped or does he take a while to settle down? What is he like when he wakes up early from his nap? Tracy says average between 8-10months is 3-4hrs. my lo is lsn so we were approaching 4hrs already by 9 months just a thought.

Sounds like he is UT for the first nap (on the old A time) but contributing to OT is the 5am wake up so he's waking up at 35min because he's been awake since 5am.  Those night wakings definitely sound OT to me. Could you try not picking him up and just resettling in the crib? Is the pacifier a prop? Does he wake when it falls out or can he replug it himself?

Honestly the day is too long for a 5am wake up. I know it sounds awful but how do you think you could apop some extra sleep in the AM? Rocking him for a few days to get a later wakeup allowing you to push that first nap out? The other option is an early BT to keep your day at 13hrs max. So BT of 6 if he's waking up at 5 then once his naps lengthen out you push that BT back towrds 7 so you get a later wakeup. Does that make sense?
My dreamed for Angel Baby DD (other than dreaded 40min naps) Born 4/30/16
Reflux, MSPI, Love my Spirited,textbook little munchkin DS Born 5/17/2012



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Offline Jemimah

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Re: 8.5 mth old: NW; EW; early waking from naps....what happened?
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2013, 21:39:53 pm »
Thanks for the responses.  Much appreciated.

I thought he was a low sleep needs kid, but maybe I am so off and he is an average sleep needs kid - to be honest I am having a tough time telling (even after 8 mths!) ::) His naps are 80% of the time 1 hr 15 min.  No more.  If he wakes early, I can always resettle, but the nap still only amounts to 1.15min. (and don't get me wrong, this is WAY better than the 30 min naps we had for SO long). My thing is, is 1 hr 15 min enough daytime sleep per nap for him? 

He has been on the 3.15 schedule for 2 mths now.  We were having ebt at the beginning, then were on track and now have pummeled into the ground ???  I have pushed A to 3.20 and have pulled back to 3 hrs  with the same nap success.  Since the crap night and crap naps, I have not tried playing with A time until today.

He settles easily for naps.  Takes soother for entire nap, but spits out at night and doesn't need again unless replugging to resettle sometimes.

"Typically anything between 45-1.5hrs is an UT nap less than 45 is and OT nap. "
This confuses me....what is a normal nap if 45-1.5 is UT??  As mentioned the most he has ever slept is 1 hr 15 min (even with resettling).

We have been trying to not pick him up, but it hasn't been that successful.  However, I just pick up, put in soother, hold for less than 1 min, and put back down.  I truly don't think the paci is a prop.  He doesn't wake when it falls out, and doesn't use it for most of the night.  He cannot replug, he just plays with it :P


We have tried the APOP for the EW, but it is painful.  You literally have to hold the entire time from 5-6.30AM. UGH!  Should we continue that, or will it become a prop too??

I will try the early bedtime again and see if we get progress with that too....

Offline Skadiver13

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Re: 8.5 mth old: NW; EW; early waking from naps....what happened?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2013, 22:18:41 pm »
My thing is, is 1 hr 15 min enough daytime sleep per nap for him? 
I would say no, this is not a restorative nap. Is he always waking at 35min or does he sometimes sleep for 1hr15 with out waking?

If it's been 2 months I would definetely start pushing towrds 3hrs 30min as that could be contributing to your EW causing OT for the rest of the day.

As for the soother. I wouldn't replug it for him to sooth him. You can hand it to him but he needs to replug it himself. He'll ether choose/learn to do it or not but you don't want that to be aprop.

Typically a restorative nap is over 1hr 30 min because that's two sleep cycles. at his age a sleep cycle is 45min that is why at 35min he's waking typically because he's jolting and if he's OT then he wakes and can't resettle. Another thing to look at is your wind down routine for naps? How long is it? At his age I had to turn off all tv's, music, toys with lights at least 30min befor ehis nap or he'd be too overstimulated to sleep past 35min.

I'll be honest I rocked my lo for a good few months to combat those EW's. It sucked but you could do it for however long you want till 5:45 or whatever you are comfortable with. Yes it will be a prop but on purpose and you should be able to wean that once you've got his sched back on track.  It's just an option. Not necessarily a BW option but one none the less.  You could also do wiwo since he's an independent sleeper till a more reasonable wake up time like 6 and hopefully he'll learn to go back to sleep on his own.  Or you could do EBT if he tacks that's your best bet.
My dreamed for Angel Baby DD (other than dreaded 40min naps) Born 4/30/16
Reflux, MSPI, Love my Spirited,textbook little munchkin DS Born 5/17/2012



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Offline Girlcrystal

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Re: 8.5 mth old: NW; EW; early waking from naps....what happened?
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2013, 23:48:52 pm »
I will post my current routine.... but when my son got very mobile I had to cut his A time back by about 30 minutes for 2-4 weeks as I previously said. I read that it is very common for their A time to decreases for a small amount of time once they become extremely mobile. A first I was shocked that I had to decrease it but he was getting miserable during the end of his A time and very clumsy.

Here is my routine on a good day!!

8am (E)- 7/8 ounce bottle
1 hr later - Solids
(A)
11am- Nap (I tried pushing this nap past 3hrs but most days he cant make it, he will start to fall over and just be super whiny. My son is on the verge on walking, he can stand all by himself and is just GO GO GO during his A time. On Thursdays we have music class from 1015-11am and he falls asleep in the car home almost every time. I am calling his name and playing music loudly to keep him awake and we only live like 6 minutes away from the place where music class is held.
S-11am-Noon.

(E)- Between 1215-1230 (Solids)
(A)
(E) 245/3pm 7 ounce bottle
(S) About 3pm-5pm (around 1.5 2 hrs)

(E)- 530pm Solids
(A)
645pm Bath time
Abit of play running around naked lol

715-730 Bottle
(S) 715-730 Bed

If he is tired and cranky I start his bottle around 7pm but if he had a bit of a later nap I will wait until 725 at the very latest. I like him asleep by 740pm at the latest.

My wind down routine is very similar to my bedtime and my son really thrives on it. He knows as soon as his music comes on what the plan is lol, even if he doesn't go to sleep right away he will suck on his fingers (self soothing himself)

Our nap routine is this. Let him climb stairs to his room, go to his room, turn on his fisher price ocean wonders music box thing. Change bum, turn off light partially close bedroom door. Then turn on white noise (mp3 player that plays rain on roof). Sit in the rocking chair with him against my chest. He will put fingers in mouth and start to close eyes. About 30seconds-2minutes later lay him down.

Sometime I have to leave the room and let him play for 5-10 minutes then come back and relay him down cause he is standing in his crib but then he is usually out.


Offline Jemimah

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Re: 8.5 mth old: NW; EW; early waking from naps....what happened?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2013, 03:11:41 am »
Skadiver13 - He can sleep 1hr 15min without help (he did it twice today!!), and when he needs resettling, sometimes it is 35 min, sometimes at the 40 min mark and occasionally at the 45 min mark.  If he sleep an hr and 15 min with no help, is that sufficient?  He is happy when he wakes.

As far as windown routine, he is usually pretty tired, so it's pretty low key, but not for 30 minutes before.  I will work on that a bit.  We do have a routine of going to the room, putting on sleep sack, turning on heater, and noise machine.  Then holding him for 1-2 mins and laying him down.  He seems pretty content with that, but I will make the 30 min prior more low key.

I shortened his awake time today and tried to hold him for the last 15 min of his nap to get him to 1 hr 30 min.  This is what it looked like so far:
WU: 6.30-9.30 (we had a lot of NW, but he did sleep till 6.30 this morning!)
S: 9.30-10.50 ( he woke at 10.45; and I held for 5 more minutes to see if I could keep him sleeping until 1.5 hrs)
A: 10.50-2.05
S: 2.05-3.30 (woke at 3.20, and I held for last 10 min)
A: 3.30-6.45 (asleep at 6.45)
resettled already at 7.30
We will see how the night goes as he had OK naps, and a normal WU.

If you think I should increase A time to 3.30hrs, can you give me an example schedule with WU at 6.30?  I don't know why but I have always found with this age the schedule to be a little wonky, even with DS1.  It is always helpful to see others schedules to help out a bit.  I have already checked out the 7-9mth EASY examples, but none really seemed to fit.

GirlCrystal: Thanks for the schedule and routine.  It's always nice to see what others are up to. You can always take bits and pieces of other moms situations to better your own :)

Offline Skadiver13

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Re: 8.5 mth old: NW; EW; early waking from naps....what happened?
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2013, 18:56:58 pm »
Ok typically the 1hr15min straight through is an UT nap. So finding out what the difference is on days he wakes at 35min adn days he sleeps through to 1hr 15min might help?

I was saying your wind down had to be 30min i'm jsut saying i know for my lo he got OS very easily at that age with lighted toys with sounds/t.v/ etc. If we had company I alwyas went upstairs 30min before his nap and just read and sang to him to keep him US before his nap. Just my btdt.

When you say you held him were you holding him the whole nap or did you go in and pick him up after he woke? If he did 1.25 on 3hrs I would stary pushing it slowly to 3hr 15 over a few days and then to 3hr30 if you don't see naps lengthen at all. My lo did a 15min jump at a time but some lo's need it to be 5/10min at a time only you know how well your lo will do. I can't give you a routine that would work everyone's is different. They are all just examples. Mine never matched the examples ether as my lo is very lsn. But an example could be

W6
E 6:30
A:
S: 9:45-11:15 (may need a top up before his nap until he can do that much time between feeds?
E: 11:15
A:
S:2:30-4
E: 4
A:
E:6:30/6:45 after bath and wind down.
S:7:15-7:30

This is just an example not one that's perfect or that would even work but just giving you the general idea.
My dreamed for Angel Baby DD (other than dreaded 40min naps) Born 4/30/16
Reflux, MSPI, Love my Spirited,textbook little munchkin DS Born 5/17/2012



**Siobhan**

Offline Jemimah

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Re: 8.5 mth old: NW; EW; early waking from naps....what happened?
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2013, 03:56:38 am »
I only held him after he woke from his nap to try and salvage the last 10 min.

I have no idea what has happened since posting and getting advice - but little guy has decided to stop NW ;D  I am beyond myself and don't understand but am going with it as I have not had this much sleep in 8 mths!!!.  10 NW to 1 (and only to feed at 3AM) - is that not totally abnormal????

The past two days:
WU:6.30-9.45 (3.15)
S:9.45-10.15; 10.30-11.15 (1.15 min total; grandma tried resettling him at this nap)
A: 11.15-2.20 (3.05)
S: 2.20-3.45 (1.25min)
A: 3.45-7.15 (3.30; was going to put to bed at 6.45, but DS1 came barging in so DS2 didn't go down until 7.15, which turned into a blessing as we had one NW to feed at 3 AM and that was it :o)

WU: 6.30-9.45 (3.15)
S: 9.45-10.45 (1 hr)
A: 10.45-2.10 (3.25min)
S: 2.10-3.20 (1.10 min)
A: 3.20-6.50 (3.30 min)
No NW so far.....crossing fingers:)

Day 2  has really strange nap times.  1 hr, and 1 hr 10 min.  Not sure what to make of those as I have never had those times with either kid ???

Could the last 2 weeks been a growth spurt, or simply developmental? 

Finally, if this keeps up, you still advise on increasing morning A time to 3.30 or more, second A time to 3.15, and final A time roughly around 3.30??  Is it usually that way at this age that morning and night A time are a bit more and mid day is a bit less to avoid the OT?  DS1 was so textbook I never had to play around with A times or nap times so this is a bit of a dice roll for me here.