Author Topic: 5-6mo waking but not upset...?  (Read 2635 times)

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Offline CattyPads

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5-6mo waking but not upset...?
« on: December 19, 2013, 16:04:05 pm »
Hello

I have a 5mo, he will be 6mo next week. He has been a great sleeper since he was 7weeks old, sleeping through the night 10-11 hours.
But for the last 3/4 weeks he has been waking one or twice per night. He doesn't cry or anything, just makes little happy sounds, chews on his dummy etc. He still sleeps in our room with us.
We usually put the dummy in and after one or two attempts he quickly settles back to sleep. Some other times he wakes up fully and it can take a while to get him back to sleep.

He isn't teething as far as I know, and I am pretty sure he isn't hungry. As I said he doesn't whinge at all.

Any ideas what could be causing this, and how to stop it? I thought he would stop but is been going on for a while now...

Thanks in advance  :)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 09:32:56 am by CattyPad »

Offline Layla

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Re: 5-6mo waking but not upset...?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2013, 02:47:39 am »
If he's not crying, I wouldn't worry about it. It may be a sign of needing to drop the catnap or too much daytime sleep? What is his daytime sleep like?



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Offline CattyPads

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Re: 5-6mo waking but not upset...?
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2013, 22:46:11 pm »
Thanks Layla,

It's just that he wakes us up and we struggle to get back to sleep and we end up quite tired. I just find it odd as it started randomly and he doesn't seem to need anything...?

He is a bad napper but with some help in the nap forum we now get one long nap per day (after lunch, 3pm, for one and a half hours) and then 2 to 3 (Depending on the day) 35min naps, and when I say 35 mins I mean 35mins exactly!  ;)
So I don't think he sleeps too much in the day?
Thanks  :)

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Re: 5-6mo waking but not upset...?
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2013, 22:58:00 pm »
If your EASY is reasonable for his age then it could be developmental. He's approaching his half year and there is a leap due, some have it a little earlier some a bit later.  Tracy mentioned that babies can wake in the night for all sorts of reasons (including 'no' reason, that we can work out) and not need us. Interfering with him if he is content can actually start to create unhelpful habits (props) where as leaving him to it he will likely get through the phase and tart going back to sleep, self settling.  I understand how disturbing it is for your sleep though - suffered the same myself.

A development can be happening which you don't know about yet, for instance if he hasn't rolled yet he might be working on this, processing it during sleep and then waking.  If he is rolling it can be something else, sitting independently, passing objects hand to hand etc etc. I  honestly never expected a baby to make quite so much noise at night, and to have their sleep disturbed by every single new skill, it really took me by surprise.


Offline CattyPads

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Re: 5-6mo waking but not upset...?
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2013, 16:42:33 pm »
If your EASY is reasonable for his age then it could be developmental. He's approaching his half year and there is a leap due, some have it a little earlier some a bit later.  Tracy mentioned that babies can wake in the night for all sorts of reasons (including 'no' reason, that we can work out) and not need us. Interfering with him if he is content can actually start to create unhelpful habits (props) where as leaving him to it he will likely get through the phase and tart going back to sleep, self settling.  I understand how disturbing it is for your sleep though - suffered the same myself.

A development can be happening which you don't know about yet, for instance if he hasn't rolled yet he might be working on this, processing it during sleep and then waking.  If he is rolling it can be something else, sitting independently, passing objects hand to hand etc etc. I  honestly never expected a baby to make quite so much noise at night, and to have their sleep disturbed by every single new skill, it really took me by surprise.

Very interesting! And it makes sense, that if he wakes up and I go to him, he might start doing it for the attention to call it somehow? So what do you suggest, if he is happy/chatting to himself etc do I just leave him to it and not go over, not even to give him his dummy which usually gets him to sleep quite quickly? As then it could become an issue?
And, will he grow out of it eventually?

Talking of rolling over... This is the problem we have now! Instead of the problem I initially came here about... He started rolling a while ago then stopped for a few weeks. But he has started again recently and the last 3 nights have been rather difficult: he rolls over, asleep, onto his tummy, then this wakes him up and he cries and we need to help him get comfy again, and this can happen 5, 10 times per night! I am told this will pass when he learns to roll back...I hope!

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Re: 5-6mo waking but not upset...?
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2013, 19:29:07 pm »
if he wakes up and I go to him, he might start doing it for the attention
I wouldn't phrase it that way exactly - if he needs attention and calls (or cries) for it then you would respond. Babies only call when they need you.  However, yes it can result in a prop whereby he needs you at his side patting him or re-plugging the dummy to be able to fall to sleep where as if you leave him to it he may learn to self settle happily.  Many parents re-plug the dummy, it's totally up to you. Tracy warned against it as it becomes a prop and that too will disturb your sleep, some parents find they are re-plugging many times per night so ultimately it isn't helpful, but do what you feel you need to because we all need some sleep and it might just be the answer for you right now.
Waking at night can indicate a routine tweak is needed, but like I said before, if the routine is good then it's likely developmental and yes it will be a phase that he passes through.  Do you shush him at BT?  Do you have a key phrase for sleep?  You might find you can get him back off to sleep with saying the sleep phrase a few times.  I know I've had phases where I've been quite firm in tone when mine has been awake, "Go to sleep. It's sleepy time" but not harsh yk?  It's not like he is on his own you are already sharing a room so he is reassured all is well.

That rolling at night is probably what's started this and yes the phase will pass.  Babies process all the day's learning and information whilst they sleep so they can find themselves rolling over etc and then stuck and call out for help. Help him turn back over.  You can try to give as much floor time as possible through his A so that he masters the skill more quickly, that will help him get through the phase.  So if you are often out with him in a buggy or sling then maybe try to arrange more floor time.

hth


Offline CattyPads

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Re: 5-6mo waking but not upset...?
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2013, 20:28:09 pm »
Thank you creations, I really appreciate you taking the time to explain all that to me!  :)

I guess that is the difference between what was happening before (he didn't need us, he just woke up and chatted etc, but we went to him anyway) and now, he cries cause he is uncomfortable/scared when he has rolled over and got stuck, therefore needs us.
So, once this passes, if he wakes up but is happy, do you recommend we leave him to it?

I can see how the dummy could become an issue, we will work on that to see how much he needs replugging or if its us assuming he needs it.

To answer your questions, we don't have a key phrase for sleep, I do say 2/3 different things, so I will stick with just one, thanks!
And sometimes I shh/pat and others I put my hand on his chest (when he is acting nerovusly) and sssh and stroke his forehead.

As for tummy time/rolling over, I put him on a blanket on the floor about 2/3 times per day for about 20-30mins each time...hope that's enough?
I am first time mum so it's a steep learning curve for me too! ;)

As for my EASY its not the most regimented one, for starters it varies as he doesn't always wake up at the same time (specially the last three days, as he is very tired from his bad night sleep cause of the rolling), as sometimes he skips naps (he isn't a great napper) but he is an angel/textbook baby so that makes things a bit easier... Here is a sample of our easy, see what you think:

Wake up 08:30
E 09:00
A: 2hrs 15mins
S 10:45 ---- 35mins then again at 1sh for another 35mins
E 13:30
A 2 hrs
S 15:00 --- 1hr 30mims
E 17:15
A 2hrs - 2hrs 15mins
S sometimes 7-7:30 for half hour
E 20:30
S 21:00

I have recently increased his A times as advised in the naps forum and that got us the 1,5hrs nap, before we just got 3/4 35 mins catnaps! Even though some of them are only 2hours he gets sooo tired, with red eyes and cranky. Feel free to tell me if you think anything needs tweaking!
Thanks :)

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Re: 5-6mo waking but not upset...?
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2013, 09:49:43 am »
Guidance A times for 5 - 6 months is around 2hr 30 min so it might be worth upping that first A time and see if you can get those first 2 CNs to join together into one better nap (although honestly many people get short naps at this age, but often they begin to resolve at 6 months which I think you are just reaching now), if you do up to 2hr 30 I would also put in the time to help extend with shush/pat or holding through the 35 min mark (say from 30 min to 50 min to see him through transition).  How is he after that first CN?
Not all the A times need to be equal throughout the day so if you are getting a good nap after 2 hr A time before that 3pm nap then I would leave it at that for now - however I'm a bit confused by your EASY. Is there are 35 min nap at 10.45 and another at 1pm? If so I'm not sure how you're getting a 2hr A time from 1.35pm WU to S at 3pm. Perhaps I'm reading it wrong.


I do say 2/3 different things, so I will stick with just one, thanks!
I also used 2 or 3 different phrases just because it felt natural. The idea is that it is almost hypnotic, mantra like, and reassuring.

if he wakes up but is happy, do you recommend we leave him to it?
I would or tell him it's night time, go to sleep.

As for tummy time/rolling over, I put him on a blanket on the floor about 2/3 times per day for about 20-30mins each time...hope that's enough?
Each LO is going to be different. Mine only rolled twice, both times waited until I wasn't looking and did it secretly!  Then didn't do it again for months and months.  If you are at home just put him on the floor as much as possible rather than a bouncy chair etc.  You'll prob find the same sleep disturbance when he works on sitting, crawling, standing, cruising, and again lots of floor time to practise the skills is the best way through.  Hmm, a bit of separation anxiety often goes with these developmental leaps too so if he starts to be clingy all of a sudden don't panic that too will pass (and is most easily got through by putting on hold as much housework as you can and just hanging out right by him the whole day, take him everywhere, to the toilet, to the kitchen, everywhere, extra reassurance that you will always be available will help him gain confidence again).

Looks like you are doing great.  I'm a first time mummy too, it's all so new hey? x


Offline CattyPads

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Re: 5-6mo waking but not upset...?
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2013, 21:18:26 pm »
Thank you creations,

Yes you are right my EASY didnt make sense, i did it from the top of my head and made a mistake. Usually my first A is 2hr 15mins, but the second one rarely makes it to the 2 hour mark. I have put him down at 3pm sooo many times that I guess he has got used to that time, independently of theA time, is that possible?
And then the evening A tends to be longer but not always. So I guess my easy is not strict enough to have the same routine everyday, which I would like really...!

I meant to ask, with average S, is it possible some babies need more sleep than others? Mine seems to get tired easily...?

When you say hold him at the 35mins mark, how do you mean? Hold him literally, or sssh/pat or...?

To answer your question, he is fine after his first nap. He is quite a content baby anyway.

And thanks for the advice on the clingy time, it hasn't started yet but it's good to be ready!

And yes they like to do things secretly don't they! When he started rolling I kept missing it haha!

Thanks again!  :)
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 21:21:29 pm by CattyPad »

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Re: 5-6mo waking but not upset...?
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2013, 11:52:07 am »
Usually my first A is 2hr 15mins, but the second one rarely makes it to the 2 hour mark.
If he's fine on the sleep he is getting then really it isn't worth stressing over, however you could increase that first A time and work on extending the first nap. If he's ok with 2hr 15 then perhaps up to 2hr 30. it could be that the second A can't get past 2hr becuase he hsa only had a 35 min nap instead of a long restorative nap.  If he got a longer first nap he may cope better with a longer second A time.

So I guess my easy is not strict enough to have the same routine everyday, which I would like really
There are lots with a regular EASY, same every day and lots that don't have this too. Mine woke at a different time every day and first A counted from WU time, it's perhaps harder on us as we want to plan out the day and our housework and trips out and about etc.  As he gets older the chances are his routine will regulate.  You can set WU time in the morning if this helps (I didn't because he woke too early) as you will then have a more regular day.

I meant to ask, with average S, is it possible some babies need more sleep than others? Mine seems to get tired easily...?
Yes there are low sleep needs, average sleep needs and high sleep needs. It can take some time to work out which your LO is.

When you say hold him at the 35mins mark, how do you mean? Hold him literally, or sssh/pat or...?
Sorry HTTJ holding through the jolts, or shush/pat, whatever it is that your Lo finds helpful to transition to the next cycle. No I didn't mean pick up and hold (unless he is crying and inconsolable through shush/pat), but holding him firmly in the cot can help him feel secure as he transitions sleep cycles.
There's a FAQ somewhere but I'm having trouble finding it just now.  If you haven't heard of holding through the jolts let me know and I'll go hunt it down.

Oh almost missed this question
I have put him down at 3pm sooo many times that I guess he has got used to that time, independently of theA time, is that possible?
Yes totally possible. Often toddlers of around 12 months old respond brilliantly to set nap times (so it is set by the clock rather than based on A times) and some younger babies respond well to these too although for younger babies it is more usual to follow A times, however babies form habits very quickly so if you regularly put him down at 3pm this will/has become a set nap time. It's not 'wrong' unless it becomes a problem. A set nap time can still be shifted to accommodate longer A time needs if/when needed, you just have to make the nap 15 mins later and within a few days a new habit is formed (extending A times or moving set naps is the same, and can be hard the first couple of days so stick with it until LO settles, don't move more than 15 mins per day and usually hold for 3 days before the next move).
FWIW I went on A times in the morning and a cobbled mix of A times which were close to set nap times in the afternoon because we had set appointments we could not change so when the A time should have extended I couldn't, instead nap came at a set time (too early) and the nap was short (CN) - it's just what we had to do to as a family.This is why EASY is a routine and not a set schedule, it is not a one size fits all rule, it is a method which allows for individual needs of your baby and the whole family.

hope this helps


Offline CattyPads

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Re: 5-6mo waking but not upset...?
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2013, 20:39:40 pm »
Hello creations
My apologies for the delay, I wanted to put your advice into practice then get back to you!
Again thanks for being so helpful and taking the time to tell me all that!

Right, HTTJ, I had  heard of it when I read the baby whisperer books/forum but I had never put it into practice...but we did and it worked a treat! The first 35min nap turned into a one hour nap!  ;D Then we did it again the next day and again, one hour instead of 35mins. And today, I didnt HTTJ and he slept an hour all on his own...coincidence or he is getting it??

As for the first A time, I really am struggling to  make it past 2hrs 10 mins BUT, we have been having quite a few bad nights due to him rolling anf waking up when is unable to then roll tummy to back, so I guess maybe he is tired because of this? When this issue is sorted maybe I will be able to sort out this As, but right now he just gets all fussy and I have to put him down.
The second A is looking easier to extend at the moment.

For his second nap, now he is usually sleeping 1hour and 15 mins, but sometimes longer. But the 1hour 15mins seems quite common, can I do  a HTTJ then or is there no jolt then?

I have a question out of curiosity...if his second nap is over an hour, how come the jolt doesnt wake him up then but it does on his first nap?

As for waking him up at the same time everyday, once the holidays are over and he is over the rolling over problem I think I am gonna do that to try for a better routine, thanks!
Regarding the sleepiness, I just think I have a more "tired" baby, pretty much everyone in my family has rather low energy levels so I fear my poor LO inherited that lol!

And finally...do you think I should try to encourage him to learn to roll back onto his back? Well I tried during tummy time but he doesnt seem to get it but maybe I am teaching him wrong... ::) we have had so many NWs lately due to this and he seems more tired than usual (and so are we lol!).
 
THANKS VERY MUCH!!!! :)


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Re: 5-6mo waking but not upset...?
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2013, 22:08:21 pm »
Right, HTTJ, I had  heard of it when I read the baby whisperer books/forum but I had never put it into practice...but we did and it worked a treat! The first 35min nap turned into a one hour nap!
Yay!  Great news!
So pleased you had success with this.  The third day where he saw himself through the transition could indeed be that he has now learned to continue to sleep, to transition instead of waking up. If a LO wakes at the same time from a nap each day they get into the habit and think they should wake then, so by helping him to transition this is teaching him to sleep longer.  Generally you'd HTTJ (or W2S for another method) for 3 days then don't do it day 4 to see what happens and if it's not successful do another 3 days then stop for day 4 again.  It can take 1 cycle (of the 3 days) or several cycles to have effect.  If you find he starts to wake early again you can try it again otherwise just kick back and get yourself a cuppa now you know he's doing an hour :)

That first A time, well, some LOs do like a short first A, that's another reason why EASY is a routine based on individual needs.  Really a 1hr nap is not ideal, it needs to be 1.5 to 2hrs long to be restorative (but 1hr is better than 35 min!) and you may not achieve a longer nap on a shorter A time - or you might. Sorry it sounds vague but some LOs do just like a short first A time (mine liked super long first A then shorter the rest of the day).  Fussiness can well be that he really needs to sleep at that time, or could be boredom. At this age they are more aware and can now yawn and show other sleepy signs due to boredom, not helpful to us mummies hey?  If you have already tried a change of scene, moving from one room to another or looking out of the window together and he is still fussing for his bed then I would accept that he either needs a shorter first A or is tired from missing night sleep like you described.  It's also possible the 35 min nap was an OT nap which would indicate not increasing the A again just yet.

I'm actually finding your LO's sleep cycle length a bit tricky to figure out.  some are 40 mins, some 45, there are even LOs with a confusing 30 min cycle, but I can't work out your DSs yet (for instance a 40 min cycle would see a 1hr 20 nap on 2 cycles. I haven't seen a 1hr 15 nap at this age and then then it doesn't totally fit with his other nap at 1hr iyswim).  Is it possible for you to observe him through a nap to see if you can spot the transition?

For his second nap, now he is usually sleeping 1hour and 15 mins, but sometimes longer. But the 1hour 15mins seems quite common, can I do  a HTTJ then or is there no jolt then?
If you are not yet up to a guidance A time on this second A it may help to increase again to encourage a longer nap. 10 or 15 mins and leave it there for several days to see if he can sleep longer on it.  Yes you can HTTJ at this time, he may not jolt but just need some assistance to transition, this would be a W2S (wake to sleep) holding him still or using shush/pat, whichever you find helpful.  The W2S I recommend at this point is the 2nd option on the FAQ where you see him through transition (up to 20 mins to get him into deep sleep, much the same as HTTJ) but if we can figure out his sleep cycle length you might have success with the other method which is to disturb him a little during his sleep (not to fully waken) which starts a new sleep cycle and helps break habitual waking.

I have a question out of curiosity...if his second nap is over an hour, how come the jolt doesnt wake him up then but it does on his first nap?
lol that's just to make it harder for us ;)
Seriously though, LOs seem to work out each nap separately.  They can be habitually waking during nap 1 and not during nap 2.  As example mine learned the habit of sleeping 2hrs at home in his bed in the morning then 40 mins in the car in the afternoon.  If I didn't take him out in the car in the afternoon it was a real challenge to get him to take nap 2 in his bed despite him sleeping there every single morning without fail, without struggle, self settling, everything - just pure habit.  There may or may not be other things at play, some external noise waking your DS during his first nap, or he was a bit OT, many things.  Or he may have just learned to extend nap 2 before he learned to extend nap 1.

I think I would focus on extending either nap 1 or nap 2. You *can* do both at once but it's hard work for you and it is better you don't switch between them each day but to stick to one until it is better.

As for the rolling, other than lots of floor time and just playing with him I don't know of anything else which would help. I could never get mine to roll, he didn't like it and only did it twice then stopped.  He didn't roll again until months and months later, I think he'd started cruising by then!  Floor play is excellent for core muscle development and is really good exercise throughout childhood.  Personally I would not encourage any standing and would avoid door bouncers and walkers etc, even once he starts to walk it is still really really useful to floor play and crawl, it's excellent for all sorts of development (including writing would you believe).
Hmm...as a bit of an 'out there' idea you could try talking to him about laying still at night, a conversation during his A time about it then a reminder at BT, and perhaps go in an hour after BT and talk to him in his sleep (ever heard of sleep talk? I'm not read up on it but did use it once for my LO with another BWers help).  It might sound a little odd to talk of such things with your baby, he is so small, but maybe worth a try?  I talked about lots of quite serious things with mine, he seemed to take it all in :)

OK, think that covered it all. Shout if I missed something.
And good luck with extending one or both of those naps :)


Offline CattyPads

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Re: 5-6mo waking but not upset...?
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2013, 22:55:59 pm »

I'm actually finding your LO's sleep cycle length a bit tricky to figure out. 
LOL Tell me about it!! I actually laughed outloud when I read this ;)  I wasnt aware that 1hour 15mins is odd, are cycles 40mins long? I am clueless on the subject, I need to read up on it! I will watch him and let you know whats going on exactly.

  The W2S I recommend at this point is the 2nd option on the FAQ where you see him through transition (up to 20 mins to get him into deep sleep, much the same as HTTJ)

Sorry to be a pain but I just cant find it!! I read about w2s though, but I cant figure out, when do I do it, when he has been asleep for 20mins or 20mins before the habitual waking?

And excuse my rubbish quoting, I couldnt figure it out either!
Thank you so so much for the long reply, I will work on everything you tell me and I will get back with an update!
As for talking to my baby, I tell him sooo many things that it wont feel strange explaining that to him so i will do that too!! And I forgot if I specified his age, he is 6months and 1 week now.
I dont wanna be a pain, just a quick reply on how long to do the w2s will do me!! :) :)

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Re: 5-6mo waking but not upset...?
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2013, 23:12:54 pm »
Ha, I actually got the w2s options the wrong way around anyway!  saying option 1 was option 2 instead of...oh anyway, it's here
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
scroll down to naps - either method is fine but you will do it based on his nap wu time so if you choose option 1 don't go in at 30 mins but go in 10 mins before he wakes (50 mins or 1hr 5 mins depending which nap your work on) and see him through the transition (this takes up to 20 mins into deep sleep) or the other option to disturb him 10 min before his habitual WU.

are cycles 40mins long?
Yes this is what Tracy said. However you will see a LOT of threads on the forums regarding 45 min naps, this is a very common length.  Usually with a nap you can work out the length, if nap is 1hr 30 then a 45 min cycle (2 cycles), if nap is 2hrs then a 40 min cycle (3 cycles), often you can see or hear your LO transition, he will murmur, or twitch, turn his head, stretch, something like that. Adults do this all night too, we just don't remember it.  It isn't so much that 1hr 15 mins is odd, I just can't work it out, it's not what I'd commonly see but maybe he wakes a bit before this and stays quiet and you are not aware? or he may have already started to lengthen his sleep cycle which Tracy said happens between 6 - 12 months but yk I never saw a thread myself with a 6 month old with a lengthened cycle.  12 months old yes, mine had a cycle of 1hr 15 min then and around 1hr 20 now.

And you are not pain at all. Answering questions and supporting one another is why we are here. Before you know it you will be paying it forward and helping another mummy with your own experiences :)


Offline CattyPads

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Re: 5-6mo waking but not upset...?
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2013, 23:23:47 pm »
Thanks for that! I will work on it tomorrow and let you know when we have some results!!

Now you mention it... When I see him wake up (like when we are out on the pram etc) he usually opens his eyes wide suddenly and stares quietly for a bit. He hardly ever cries when he wakes up. So I guess it's likely he wakes up, stares for a bit then makes noises when he is ready for some human interaction  :D so maybe you are right and it's not exactly 1hr 15mins!
I need to spy on him and solve the mystery!