Extend A time? OT/UT confusion - 5 months

[BusterB]

My little boy has never independently transitioned through sleep cycles and I have realised I need to make every effort to help him & would love some advice.

He is 5 months exactly and my New Years resolution was to have him sleep in his cot for every nap (previously was only doing 1st nap and I was APOP all others to attempt keep OT at bay) - but as he only ever sleeps 30-45mins (although 45 is very rare) in cot, we are already running into trouble.

I have spent hours this week reading threads on here regarding short nappers and various transitioning techniques (W2S, HTTJ etc) and have spent last 3 days sat in with him whilst he naps to arm myself with his wake points etc I have been using W2S, which so far hasn't made any difference, but I will continue.

The big issue is that he seems to go from snoring to WIDE awake at the 30 min mark. He stirs very briefly and then seconds later his legs are in the air, he chats, plays with his lovey and if I try to resettle, just laughs at me! Once upon a time he'd be inconsolable on waking, but not any more - I have been increasing his A time over the last 3 or 4 weeks and he is currently on roughly 2hr 20 from eyes open to eyes closed, regardless of when I put him down (ie if I try a shorter A after a short nap!)

Feed-wise, he is exclusively breastfed, somewhere between 3.5 & 4hr EASY, we went to 4 hours but suddenly had lots of NWs so I was trying for more feeds per day to try and get the calories in, but am moving back towards 4hrs as we are now back to 2NWs

Bedtimes he goes down no problem at 6:45pm, falls asleep independently in 5-15mins. No issues here.

For naps he falls asleep independently no problem if I get the window of opportunity right, but have started PU/PD for when he needs some help, which seems to work although as I mention he s fairly consistent about when he closes his eyes and I'm not 100% sure if he'd have done that regardless? He has a lovey & we use white noise. We have a wind down routine & I have varied length of this - also makes no difference.

Can someone please advise, is this an activity time issue please? I am presuming first nap might be UT and then he's OT rest of the day due to single sleep cycle? He seems pretty darn tired by the time we start our wind down for any nap, but I accept that the A times lengthen rapidly at this stage and some I might have to push him? His cues are not reliable though, and have def put him down too early in the past, but really aimed to avoid that recently and as he generally settles within 20mins without crying for 1st nap, thought I had it right.

I have been unable to extend his 1st nap even with APOP, but with 2nd nap yesterday & today I have, by moving him to the carseat and he will sleep well (2+ hours) once in there (in fact I had to wake him to feed yesterday)

If I didn't APOP obviously we'd have no restorative sleep at all & I wonder if I just need to be brave enough to only have him sleep in the cot for x4 30min naps?? Or is the just developmental and I should APOP as I am to ensure he gets the sleep he needs?

If I had ever extended just 1 nap without APOP in 5 months I'd feel better, but it has literally never happened! Would really appreciate some advice....

[weaver]

Hi there,
can you post what your day looks like roughly?  I know it'll be variable but just give us today, or yesterday, a fairly typical one.

A 30 minute nap is usually OT, and the snapping to wide awake is fairly typical of OT too.

I'm not clear about the extent of your APOPing - tell us more about his time in the cot.  Does he go to sleep independently in the cot? Or are you holding to sleep?  Do you think you might have a prop issue?  In that case, maybe have a look at the Props board.

The thing I'd like to say is that at 5 months, you can easily just start again as though it's day 1 of EASY, so don't be discouraged.  He will probably learn pretty quickly, once we sort out a plan. 

[BusterB]

Apologies if my above post was a bit long! I have been reading through some other really useful threads that others have started on short naps and I think I only have a couple of specific questions now... As he has never done the transition himself he obviously has no idea how to and until I crack that, I realise he will never go longer than 45mins, even if I beat the 30m thing.

• Does the 30 min naps mean that my LO is overtired and should I revert back to shorter A time? Or as his current A is age appropriate, persevere with the longer one and wait until he catches up?

This morning I tried a W2S/Shushpat adaption of jiggling him and and cot slightly from 20 mins into his nap (as motion is def his thing!) - he still woke at 30ms on the dot, but I intend to continue trying it.

• Should I do this for every nap or should I just focus on his morning nap to begin with?
• He woke happy so I left him to try and resettle himself (whilst still rocking cot slightly) and then when he started crying used PU/PD for the remaining hour of the nap, was this the correct thing to do? He never resettled, just got very upset, and then at the full 1.5 hour mark I took him out as it was time for his next feed.... am I on the right track doing this for his naps?

[BusterB]

Hi weaver - thanks so much for your response! Looks like we cross-posted as I submitted my additional post and your reply was there too! Will come back with my schedule in a few mins - many thanks!

[BusterB]

So his wake times are variable but this is an average schedule:

W/U
6:45am

E - 7am
A - 2h 20
S - 9:05 - 9:35am
A - 2h 20
E - 10:30/11am
S - 12 - 12:35pm in cot & APOP in carseat until 2/2:30pm

E - 2:30pm
A - 2hr 15
S - 4:15 - 4:45pm
A - 2hr

BT
Bath - 6:15
BF - 6:30
S - between 6:45/7pm - totally independently and with no fuss

Today I tried putting him down earlier after the short morning nap, so we did everything 15 mins earlier for 2nd nap and he fell asleep at the 2 hour mark instead of 2:20 (so was obviously tired) - but when he woke after his 30mins, he was very wide awake and totally impossible to resettle in the carseat, which hasnt been a problem before.... so was UT I presume?

I am now really confused how on earth I get out of the OT/UT loop and feeling very disheartened. On the plus side he is in a really wonderful mood...  .... for now anyway!

ETA: I should add that I have tried reducing his A time between the short naps before and he took exactly the same time to actually reach sleep as it did when I left it at 2hr 20... it just involved A LOT more crying. Hence why on this schedule it is so long.......

[BusterB]

I'm not clear about the extent of your APOPing - tell us more about his time in the cot.  Does he go to sleep independently in the cot? Or are you holding to sleep?  Do you think you might have a prop issue?  In that case, maybe have a look at the Props board.

To answer this - he goes to sleep totally independently in his cot, sometimes with no interventions at all from me, occasionally some PU/PD or head stroking but I remove myself once he is calm and still awake and he falls asleep by himself.

The APOPing I am currently doing is removing him from the cot once he is awake after the 30m nap and putting him straight into his car seat (with no interaction) covering the seat and rocking it. This usually has him back out to sleep in less that 10 mins & he stays that way for 1.5 to 2 hours.

We previously might have had a slight feed to sleep issue - but that applied more to nightwakings and I have tackled that one and do not believe that is  an issue now. Was never an issue with naps.

[weaver]

So average A times for 5 mos are around 2h20-30, as you know, I think.   

I know you've tried reducing his A time.  Have you tried extending by ten minutes?  I would start with the first nap of the day.    For babies that are doing 3 naps (2 longish naps and a catnap), it is usual to drop the cat-nap around late 5 mos/6 mos, and at that point it is a question of 'pushing', 'helping' LO to get to a 3 hour A time.  So, to sum up, I think he might need a longer A time.

I know I said 30 minutes is usually OT, but that is a rule of thumb, and if he's waking happy, then I would be tempted to push him.  So average A times for 5 mos are around 2h20-30, as you know, I think.   

If this is right, then he hopefully will be more ready for a 'good' sleep at nap time..  You can combine pushing his A time with some interventions to help him learn to transition like HTTJ (my personal fav!), or whatever you prefer. Push his A time by ten-fifteen minutes at a time and keep it at the new time for three days or so to allow him to adjust. 

Sounds great on the independent sleep and no props.  I see what you're doing with your APOP pattern, as I did the same thing!  Hopefully with an A push we can get this sorted. 

HTH 

[lnickell115]

I am by no means an expert but I also have a 5mo who I've struggled with her naps. To me, it sounds like your LO is OT. Maybe I would try to increase to 2hr30 and hold for a few days but if you are still getting short naps I would start coming back down. I would start with the first wake time of the day and try and get that one figured out and then start tackling each subsequent wake time. I know with my LO, her first wake time is only 1hr20min which I know is very short for her age. But we tried increasing it and we get short naps. When we keep it at 1hr20 we get 1.5-2hr naps. She also increases wake time throughout the day by adding about 20 mins to each wake time. By the time its BT, she is usually up about 2hr20min.

[BusterB]

Thanks weaver & lnickell115 - all advice/thoughts taken on board.

I'm inclined to agree with you lnickell115 about the OT, especially as my LO has just started EW (4:30ish) and being awake for 1hr 15/20 mins in the last couple of days since extending his A time

On the plus side keeping him up for the extra time, he goes down really easily... he just wakes up even earlier!!

Yesterday I did the extending A and his naps went as follows:

Nap 1 - 2hr 30m
Awake @ 28mins (woke happy & playing so left in cot until 45mins - when he was starting to fuss - then got him up)

Nap 2 - 2hr 25m - in car
Awake @ 25mins - which is unheard of in the carseat in a moving car!!! He was awake for 10mins or so and then resettled for 45 mins, but again, that is a really short nap for him in the car - so something is going on with him!

Nap 3 - 2hr 14m (he was screaming with tiredness by this point)
Awake @ 26mins

Today he has had 1 nap...

Asleep at 2hr 30
Awake @ 26 mins - I can currently hear him chatting to himself on the monitor.

All in all, not going in the right direction..

I noticed today he got very grouchy when he'd been awake for 2 hours, but I distracted him and he cheered right up until he fell asleep at 2hr 30 with very minimal fussing.

Should I give the longer A more time or is he definitely OT do you think and I should rein things back? He is only getting 1.5 to 2 hr day sleep at the moment and the EW are obviously depriving him further.... don't want to cause even more issues!

[lauradj]

I'm hopping on here rather last minute but I thought I'd throw my two cents in.  Is it possible he is ready to move on to solids?  I know the paediatricians say to wait until 6 months but if he has doubled his birth weight, can sit up fairly well (supported) and isn't thrusting his tongue out, maybe he's ready?  I mention this in relation to your EW's and you said you were trying to get enough calories into him.  I would check with his doctor first but it's a thought.  My LO is the same age and we're sloooooowlly moving to towards longer A times but he has high sleep needs and takes longer to transition to each extended A time.
As well, are you taking him outside a fair amount every day?  I find if I make a point of getting my DS outside for a walk or going swimming then he sleeps better.  I'm just throwing a variety of ideas out there, seeing as PU/PD and W2S has already been covered.  For the record, PU/PD does not work for my DS so don't sweat it if your LO gets irate.  I just leave him to chit chat to himself as long as he'll go and then get him either a)when the chit chat becomes crying, or b) when nap time is done, according to me! (it's a 50/50 split as to who wins, BTW) 

[weaver]

Hi there, how are things today? Sorry to hear they were going fairly off for you. No fun

Just re-reading the whole thread now. Sounds to me like the 28 minute WUs are bascially the same thing as the previous 30 minute WUs.  Let's say all of that is OT and let's go back to the drawing board.  Take him back to 2hr 20 A time (or even a tad shorter if you have a hunch about that - 2 hr 15 maybe?)  and try some nap extension techniques.

If he does a short nap, normally he should have a shorter A time.  This is not always dramatically shorter (ie he might not go down to, say, an hour's A time) but certainly somewhat shorter, maybe 30 mins or so.  Watch his cues.

He stirs very briefly and then seconds later his legs are in the air, he chats, plays with his lovey and if I try to resettle, just laughs at me!

You need to get him at that first stir if you're doing anything like laying hands on, more sh-patting.  It really is a matter of seconds.  And if you watch you may notice an even earlier cue.  I would intervene, very softly and gently, at the first moment of approaching wakefulness.  For W2S you need to get to him before his usual WU, so if he wakes at 28, then you need to 'interrupt' him around 20/25 minutes. 

For me, I found with both my LOs at this age that the quality of the wind-down and the first 20 minutes of sleep were crucial to how the rest of the nap went.  My first LO was touchy so having a really good wind-down paid off.  Having done sh-pat on the shoulder, I would keep a bit of sh-pat going very gently as he was in the cot to help him settle and really get into a good sleep. I would sit with him, HTTJ, and then pat if necessary around the 25 minute mark.  If we got over that, then the rest of the nap was pretty good, usually. As you say at the beginning of your first post, this is about teaching how to get into a good sleep and how to transition.  So if you approach it in that spirit, you'll find the lesson is learned, in a few weeks.

Another good tip is to get him to go down for his naps in his cot (keeping your New Year's Resolution ) and if he wakes, get him up, without much discussion, and into a sling or his buggy or car seat to continue the nap.  If this works, then he sandwiches two naps together and you get somewhere around the amount of sleep you hoped for.  I used to do this for one nap and sit by the cot for the second nap. 

A lot of this is to do with your mama instinct and what you can see your LO doing: so come back and describe how it's going on and we'll see what we can do.

HTH