wakes after 30 mins, is it worth it?

[aarden]

Hi, I have been trying a version of ssh/pat for naps for 11 week old for quite a few weeks when I can and had a good  go for 2 days at xmas but sstopped due to OT. I can get her to sleep fairly quickly but never back to sleep after 30/40 mins wake up (gets worse as day goes on).It doesn't matter if I stay for 10mins or for 20. I wasn't bothered too much as I thought this was some progress and could put in sling straight away upon waking. However I made the mistake of trying to assist with my version at night. Night feeds are increasing and after a huge 180ml feed at 11.30, she woke at 3.15 (4th or 5th day in a row at this time) so tried first to  not feed and get back to sleep. She really cried so I tthought ok she's hungry and fed her but she couldn't get back to sleep after so I tried to assist and as per day time woke 30 mins later crying even harder. I eventually ended up feeding after trying cuddling also by 5.45, she still couldn't sleep so had to let her sleep on me for the sake of others in house.

My question is, is it really worth assisting her to sleep if she wakes after 30 mins? I mean am I helping her at all by assisting her if  it doesn't help at night? thinking I'll just have to wait till she grows out of the new habit waking time. We were getting from 11pm to between 5.45-7am, very ffrustrating, she has always been a pain to resettle after 2nd night feed.

[jessmum46]

What's her daytime routine like?  Could you post it in EAS format for us with eating, awake and sleep times?  30/40 minute naps are very typical of OT and it may be we can make some suggestions to help

At night if she is doing at least 3h between feeds she is right on track for her age.  I know it's frustrating when you get a couple of longer stretches and then a feed comes back again, but it's normal.  Sleeping through is not a one-way process and there are loads of growth spurts in the first few months and increases in calorie requirements as LO gets bigger and more active.  My rule at this age would be to feed at night if more than 3h from the last feed, gradually moving to feeding no more often than 4h as LO transitions to a 4h EASY at four months or so. 

What was your alternative plan to assisting her to sleep?

[aarden]

thanks for responding. I'm afraid I didn't post a routine as there isn't really one anymore due to the different times at night that she feeds (any time from 3:15am to 7am)

I think now the 3.15 wakings are growth spurts, but wasn't sure as as it goes on for about 5 days, not 2-3 and has happened three times now, only 1.5- 2 weeks apart- didn't realise they were so frequent, they weren't with my first. I tried 9pm dream feed once but couldn't feed her.

From birth to around 8 weeks feed at 4/4:30am which meant:

7:15am- I woke her before xmas, she now wakes herself. Feed
yawns after 45 mins and if not asleep by 1.5 hours then hard crying (the result of trying to get the other child ready for nursery)
feeds every 2.5- 3.15 hours and i think when well rested A time is 1h 15 judging by the first nap of the day, after that i find her difficult to read. She does not give tired signs.

If she wakes at 5am to feed in the last few weeks, she thrashes around, even after a very big feed and will only sleep on me. If she feeds at 3:15 am, she wakes at 6am and I get her up and she feeds again.

yesterday/today, starting in the evening
E 6:10pm one side of me
A bath
E 7:10pm other side of me
S 7:50pm. She always settles by herself at bed time and the time is getting quicker now 20-30 mins (used to average 1 hour)
E 11pm bottle formula (all other E's are BF)
E 5am, fed one side latched off, started to shut eyes, put in cot, lots of thrashing and cries out, fed other side, tried put in cot with    hand on shoulder (sometimes helps). Fed couple sucks to try to sleep (so absolutely huge feed between 5am-6am.)
S 6:20am on me, put down in cot, awake 7:00am
E 7:20am (small)
A 7:25
S 8:25am-10:05 sling (cot didn't work, I put her in for 15 mins but could tell from the look on her face that she was not relaxed) wiggled lots no deep sleep i don't think
E 10:10
A 10:30
S 11:30 in sling, husband told me she woke when my 3 year old screamed, and not good quality after 45 mins, then we gave up.
E 12:30pm
A can't remember the feed time- circa 10 mins
S 1:45pm-3:10 in sling walk into town
E 3:10
A 3:30
S 4:15-4:45 in sling, coffee machine woke her. Now not sure what to do. I will prob fit in another short nap and two feeds

Today has been an odd day with the quality of her sleep not that great. She was rubbing her eyes through the morning feeds but seems to have stopped that now.

She has napped in the cot before. 2 weeks ago, after feeding at 4am, I let her sleep till 7:30am and looked at her and she looked so well rested, she smiled lots, there were no hiccups and looking uncomfortable, so I lay her down in her cot after 50 mins awake and she went to sleep. It was amazing, 2nd nap, same timings, but 30/40 min nap. this lasted for 3 days, and then it was xmas and I had to put her in the car, which is always a disaster and no cot naps since.

It seems if I put her down when she is awake and happy she will sleep for am nap, if I help her by rubbing her back and white noise, she wakes after 30/40 mins or 20 as the day goes on. Most naps are in the sling, she cries hard before going to sleep and then is suddenly asleep if in cot or stationary in sling. i can't get her sleepy before putting her down.

Sorry this is a really long post. Feed amounts and times are so different each day now. Sometimes, although less frequently now she is slightly uncomfortable (acid breath and hiccups) which probably throws things off too.

If waking after 5am, the nightmare time, I could either get her to go back to sleep by sleeping on me or by rubbing her back in the cot which can take a while and involve some crying if I don't keep at it for 20 mins. Both result in 30-40 mins extra sleep.

[jessmum46]

That's ok, to be honest we had nothing even vaguely resembling a routine at 11 weeks here!

A time of about 1h15 sounds ok at this age.  Have you seen the link to average A times here? Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!!. If she doesn't show good tired signs you may have to do what I did and be more of a clock-watcher and just aim for about the same A time each time until you find there's a problem with short naps. 

Does she show any signs of gas discomfort or reflux?  Reflux 101 - General reflux information and Alternative diagnoses and Reflux mimics. I just wonder because she seems so unsettled after the 5am feed although from what you describe she is clearly tired.  Oh I see you mention acid breath and hiccups....have you discussed it with your health visitor/doctor?  If she is in pain/discomfort then short sleeps and unsettledness can be key symptoms.  And no amount of routine tweaking will help until that's sorted

The days where she had a good first nap after 50 mins but a short second nap, I think that's probably because 50 mins was too short an A time when she's well-rested.  Many babies do prefer a shorter first A time, especially after quite a short night sleep (just taking the example above she had less than 10h night sleep which we would usually consider a short night).  But then after making up for the lost night sleep in the first nap they will be undertired if you use the same A time again.  That first short A time is almost like a night waking if you see what I mean? 

30/40 min naps are often OT, *but* we were absolutely plagued by 37 min naps at around four months (very precise!) which I eventually realised with the help of ladies here were UT.  It might help if you could keep track for a few days of what happens and then a pattern might be clearer?

[aarden]

Thanks, I had thought she was displaying mild silent reflux symptoms but not bad enough for meds. She hiccups much less now, doesn't burst into tears suddenly and is happier on her back.

The issue now I think is she is OT but I just cannot get her well rested. I've tried no naps o
In cot, all in sling for days and early bed but she is still waking with some dark circles.

I've decided its just not realistic to get her back on track and have gone back to rubbing her back in the cot and then after the 30 mins putting her in the sling as can't extend. All of which makes her even more tired as I can't fit enough sleep in the day and cries to sleep both in cot and sling. Also I can only put her in the cot when 3 year old is at nursery or husband is out of bed at wweekend.

I agree with the UT, but don't think we'll be in that scenario again until she can make longer A time.
Still not sure if ever get a 5am wake up for feed what to do but at the moment it's back to 3.15 or 4.30am

[jessmum46]

(((Hugs))), it's tough but it does get better (speaking as someone who found this site in floods of tears at about this age.....).  Sometimes it's about survival, and if that means just going with the short naps and getting on with other things as best you can for your own sanity and well-being, then that's the right thing to do for now

[aarden]

Thought you might be interested to know that I took her to see a cranial osteopath that specialises in babies. He has at least a 6 week waiting list but he had a cancellation.  I'm not sure what the practitioner was doing but he put his hand on her back and her little body suddenly just relaxed and then afterwards she yawned loads. He explained that she was tense in her diaphragm and probably had the cord wrapped round her waist. I've brought an exhausted baby home rubbed her back a little and in 1 minute she went to sleep in the cot! Not sure how long she'll sleep but she just seems more relaxed.  Unfortunately I've been warned that 60% of babies are unsettled the first night after treatment but should be better tomorrow.

[jessmum46]

Glad you've found something that seems to have helped

[aarden]

It only helped for one day, back to normal now, massive growth spurt not even making 3 hours at night,  feeding much larger amounts in the night than the morning feeds, and increasingly tired with EW and short naps even in the sling.  The cot attempts are making her so tired but 7 hours of sling wearing is too much!
Thanks for listening,  I'm off to bed as been awake since 1.30am.

[jessmum46]

(((Hugs))). How are you getting on with length of A times?

[aarden]

Well tried to get her to sleep every 45 mins in the hope of 1.5hrs every 3 hours. Obviously this hasn't quite worked. It's closer to an hour and by the 4th nap in the cot with rub back is not working and I just had to let her sleep on me we were both tired and she hadn't fed well.  The problem now is that she is refusing to feed from me which I have put on another post. She was also so windy today.  I really don't know what's going on any more.

I'm hoping to alternate cot and sling depending on whether I have my other child to look after (who has also started to wake at 5am still tired so im running between the both in the night, as you do).

If I can work the feeding out first and I'll try fit naps in and then when/if sorted I can work feeding around naps as she gets older?

[jessmum46]

You're trying to get her to sleep after 45 mins awake?  I'm not sure I'd do that  that's a really short A time, I can't imagine she'd want to settle? 

You can of course focus on feeding first if that's what you want, but I've found generally things fall into place a bit better if you consider both together.  Happy to keep helping with routine if you'd like but totally understand if you decide to leave it for now

[aarden]

things are worse, she used to not go back to sleep after 5am, but now 4am, and i think 3.45 this morning, and will not settle with a cuddle anymore after a feed, only feeding to sleep which i have never done with her until the past week or so. I can then squeeze another 45 out of her.  Also i posted elsewhere about not wanting to feed from me from last feed 4.30am to 8:45 but then took a bottle. The health visitor thought she was not hungry rather than bottle preference.

i have now therefore introduced some bottles as i thought this is what she wanted, however she does feed from me sometimes. She is also windy and often has done a poo at 4-5am.

I am at a loss now. She is getting more tired every day but doesn't seem unhappy, just looks a bit uncomfortable stuffing her fingers in her mouth constantly.


She is getting 8 hours sleep at night 7:00pm-11 then 12:00-4am (used to do 7:30am wake up), then 4 hours in the day. When well rested at 2 months old she had about 16hrs sleep. That is a lot of sleep to catch up on!

What do i do? try and get as much sleep in her that i can physically cope with for 3 days or until i drop and concentrate on more sleep in the cot? Do i walk around with her in the sling from 4:30am just to get the sleep in? or feed to sleep. I cannot do a cot sleep at 4:30am as it involves crying which would wake everyone up. feed to sleep or rubbing back in the cot result in 45 mins sleep. the sling gives a long nap.

Also if she only sleeps 45 mins in the cot which takes 30 mins of work then she would have to be asleep again by 45 mins to say get her 1.5hrs of sleep in every 3 hour cycle. But i realise 45 mins is a short A time and 1.5hrs is probably not enough either.

I have tried different slings but they are all painful after a while and i am exhausted after 6 hours of walking with her a day after 4 hrs sleep . she wakes if i sit down
3 yr old up now.
any ideas let me know thanks

[Florena49]

Hi just wanted to say that we had and still have a similar problem, LO is 14 weeks and will only sleep 30-45 minutes at a time, the only way i get a decent nap out if him is by walking him i the pram, he still wakes at 40 minutes but the motion puts him bac to sleep, once he is on deep sleep he will usually do over 2 hours! Sometimes i have to wake him if it gets close to 3......
Although LO is the only child it is incredibly stressful not necause i want me time bu because i want him to be well rested.
In terms of awake time: at 12 weeks LO had a growth spurt it was very obvious he went back to the newborn A time, he would literally fall asleep on me before i even manage to get to the cot afyer an hour! And didnt feed much for 2 days, jusy wasnt interested. Once he went back to normal he sort of ot stuck on 1hour A time, he would start whining and displaying signs of tiredness but when it came to puting him to bed he would be hysterical, like i was cutting his arm off! So i braved it....for 4 days whether he liked it or not i extended all of his A time to 1.20 first, then to 1.30. For the first 2 days i he was still showing signs at exactly an hour, at that point i had to pick him up and distract him it was hard work let me tell u. After 4 days he can comfortable stay awake for 1.30 in fact at the moment im tryin to extend his first A time to 1.40 to see if that makes any difference to his first nap. All of our naps are 40 mins so our schedule is moy easy as such but if that helps it goes somethibg like that.

7.30 wu and eat
9.00 sleep-9.40
10.30 eat
11.10 sleep-
Etc
So i stick to 3 hourly feeds and A time of 1.30 for all naps.

Our nighy are still terrible and afte 5 am well i dont get any sleep really, but hey i wont be putting him to bed until he is 18, he will evetually grow out of it i hope......

[aarden]

so have i understood correctly that even if a baby has a 45 nap you keep a similar A time, resulting in less sleep overall in the day? I would have thought they'd need a shorter A time as they'd be more tired but you wouldn't have an EASY (unless in pram etc) and sometimes a nap would bump into a feed resulting in far too much A time. My problem is that my LO doesn't give tired signs now unless she is well rested say after 2 x 1.45hr naps in sling or after a feed as she's overtired all the time i expect, with bags under her eyes!

My first only slept 30 min naps in pram all day before 6 months but slept 7am-7pm with 3 habit night feeds. If i got all the naps in throughout the day then she would be well rested and not cry to sleep and take first nap in cot. I trained my first to sttn at 6 months (hand on back at every habit wake time, I sat for hours!, but three days then never woke again) then it must have been 7-8 months we got longer naps, by that point her 30 min naps were undertired. It did just work out as she got older.

I don't hold any hope for this one though! we were from 0-11 weeks 7.30-7.30 at night with 2 night feeds and then for a few days first nap in cot, then on xmas day I put her in the car and she missed a nap and cried for the whole hour journey and we've never recovered!