6 month old night wakings - trying shush pat

[Bestbees]

Hi Nippo,

Having same problem here, trying to extend a times but getting mini naps! Arg!

[nippo]

Not sure...last night little twin woke about 4 times between bedtime and midnight but put herself back to sleep twice. Husband shush patted her back to sleep and took 30secs to a minute.

She then woke at 6 so we gave her her feed and she went straight back to bed and we woke her at 8.

Big twin got up twice. At 1am she put herself back to sleep after 20 mins. Then was up again at 4.45am. I gave her 15 mins and then got her some milk. She went straight back down and slept until 8.

I don't know if I am doing the right thing, feeding them at night? Read baby whisperer on night wakings and it said that feeding at night takes away from day feeds as they are on a 24 hour day so just a bit confused about whether night feeding is a good thing. They seem to sleep better (and I worry they aren't sleeping well without it).

Today we got them up at 8 and I topped up BT but little twin refused a feed. So I was left with one twin feeding at a different time from the other (2 hour difference which made everything harder.) I just can't seem to get them into a routine and it's exhausting me...

LT only did a 30 min nap am and a 40 min nap pm. She was tired and fussy so I tried to put her back to sleep. I shush patted for an hour but she wouldn't settle so I picked her up in the end as she showed no signs of going back to sleep. Now I feel like a failure!!

BT did a 1hr nap am and a 45 main nap pm...

I feel like I'm losing it

[Bestbees]

I have no advice only sympathy!

I don't know about the feeding at night, as I am bf I think it is a bit different...my general thought is do what makes babies happy. Could you give only a v small bottle?

Mine so out of schedule with each other today too! Such a struggle. I feel here is more supportive that the other forum, do you? Felt that was a bit like, let them cry and put them on a strict routine and simple!

Hugs xx

[nippo]

Hey Bestbees, everyone on here has been lovely. I found FF full of people who felt they had everything sussed and that's really not me! I am happy to admit that I am struggling and need help. I felt I was getting somewhere with sleep training. We had a week of 2 hour naps and almost full nights sleep. I just don't know how i'm going backwards...I think some things have improved. I generally have my evening back and can shush pat to sleep. But the night wakings improved and are slowly clawing their way back to the 3 or for wakings in the evening and twice at night...

[Layla]

Night feeding at 6 months is perfectly normal! If you feel that they can't handle being awake for up to 3hrs, take it back a bit and maybe aim for 2 long naps and a catnap - so A time of 2.5 hrs. What is your ideal wake up time? If its 8am, then maybe aim for something like this:

8am - wake
10.30-12 - morning nap
2.30-4 - afternoon nap
6.30-7 - catnap
9pm - bedtime

If you want an earlier bedtime, then you will probably have to start waking them up at 7am so that they take their naps earlier and stay with the earlier bedtime. If they refuse the 3rd nap, then I would make bedtime much much earlier, like 6pm so that they are not awake for too long in the evening.

With regards to feeding, as a rule of thumb I used to feed if mine woke anywhere from 4hrs onward (same E as during the day).

If they have a short nap (either morning or afternoon), then I would offer the next sleep (be it a nap or bedtime) earlier... around 15-20 mins earlier.

[Bestbees]

So last night attempted our version of shush pat, sing oat. Pupd just angers them. Took fifteen mins of crying for by. Normally they go down well. I only fed if three hours had passed. Twin two cried for an hour atten thirty then slept til two then 5.30. Twin one cried. More often but shorter. Overall felt better but up for the day at five thirty!
Hope your night better Nippo?

[nippo]

Thanks Layla, I do appreciate the help.

Although the twins are 6 months, they are actually only 4 and a half months because they were premature. So I treat them as 4 and a half month olds.

They can't seem to stay up for even 2 and a half hours right now. They manage 2 hours max at the moment. Maybe over weeks I can get them to 2 and a half...

Last night went well for little twin. Only woke up at 5 so I fed her (she puked everything back up and so a big change and my sheets too!!! But that's another story!!!) And then back to bed.

She is still asleep now and it's 8.20 (I should wake them really but as they won't take a top up it means I will feeding before they sleep which isn't good, I just can't get it right lol!!)

Big twin woke up at 1am and my husband shush patted her to sleep, it took an hour after an hour of her being up and moaning on and off.
 
She then woke at 6 so I gave her her morning feed and back to bed. I decided on putting them straight back to sleep because they are clearly still tired. They go down really easily with no fuss and stay down for a good few hours...I just need to work out how to get round starting their day with a feed so I'm still on EASY and not on AESY which is kind of what ends up happening!

[Layla]

My LO would also wake in the early hours of the morning and I would feed and she'd go down for another hour or 2. I would then do a feed when she'd wake (which was more or less a top up feed) and we'd start our E's from that time. So don't think they have to have a full E when they start, it doesn't have to be strict EAS, if you know what I mean.

I forgot about them being twins and premature, sorry ! Definitely then cut back on A's and if they can only stay up for 2hrs, then don't push anymore.

Great to hear little twin slept well last night. Sorry to hear she puked, I hope she's not coming down with anything and it was just a one off .

With regards to feeding them before sleep, as long as they are not falling asleep on the bottle every time, you should be ok... if they are having a feed and then need a nap about 30mins later, that is ok.

[nippo]

I think I have the biggest problem with little twin and top ups. Big twin will take it but little twin refuses. 2 hours just doesn't get her appetite up enough...will try and experiment a bit with a smaller bottle at 5am feed and see if that tides her over...will keep you updated.

The puking is because little twin likes to sleep on her tummy and she has always been a bit pukey even on her back. So a full tummy and her turning onto her tummy aren't really a good combo. She actually puked up 2nd feed too...and I didn't realise... Felt really upset with myself when I realised she'd slept in her sick for a few hours....she must have done it in her sleep.

Bestbees- glad things are looking up. I think slowly they will get what you are trying to do. It does involve some crying which is hard. I battle with it at nap times but I am hoping that one day soon it will click. Night times are definitely a lot better.

[nippo]

Omg, I just had the worst night and day  with little twin.

First put her down for her nap as she was showing tired signs totally forgetting that her feed was due. So after 15 mins of shush pat I realised and fed her. What a whally! She ended up going down about 15 mins after feed as I tried to separate feed from sleep.

She basically fought each nap, and the catnap she cried so long I just abandoned even though I could see how tired she was. After an hour of crying I just couldn't take it any more.

As a result she was exhausted and so I put her down early at 6. She fell asleep whilst sitting up and burping her. And I couldn't get her up. I put her to bed and 20 mins later she was up. I shushed her for about 10 mins and she went back to sleep. Then she woke again 20 mins later and this time she cried and cried until 10.30pm 3 hours later when I offered her her next feed. ( I had offered milk prior to this but she refused, and I know she wasn't in pain because as soon as I lifted her out of the cot to offer milk she started laughing and kicking her legs ready to play...) She then woke at 5 and I fed her. Then up at 7 tired. So I put her down for her nap early. More crying and I left the room as other twin was alone and I has to check. After 5 mins she calmed down and went to sleep

This is the worst night and day since we started sleep training. I know it's my fault for forgetting feed and not going out so I could force a catnap. But now I feel things are getting worse...

[Layla]

Oh no, I am so sorry to hear all that but please try not to beat yourself about it. Just remember that everyday is a new day!

With regards to the catnap, I wonder if it would be easier for you to APOP this nap. I APOP'd Jenny for the catnap as the girls were home at that time and they needed me as well. Do you have a baby carrier? I wonder if you could push one twin in the pram whilst the other one is on you (in a sling/baby carrier)? The 3rd nap can be the hardest for them to fall asleep for... its the first nap to disapear so lots of mums do the same (ap this nap) and it won't affect sleep training!

Will be back with more thoughts, hubby needs to use the computer

[nippo]

Sorry for being dim but what is APOP? Thanks xx

[nippo]

Ok tonight followed normal routine and went out for catnap. Little twin wasn't overtired but decided at bedtime that she wasn't tired and wanted to play. She was rubbing her eyes whilst drinking her milk and I left her to calm down before putting her to bed. But she went into another meltdown. Lasted 45 mins and she kicked out when I tried to shush pat her. I left her to calm herself and she was chattering for about 5 minutes which then turned into full on crying again. She normally calms when shush patting on her side but she just didn't want it. She was tired though...

In the end I had to leave her because I was making her worse...it took about 10-15 minutes before she fell asleep. But no I feel like I should have kept with the Shush Pat even if she didn't want it, because now I've just left her to sort herself out...I just don't know what to do...for the last 2 weeks she has gone down in less than 10 minutes...

Just feeling really down about the whole situation. I know patience is the key but I can't bear hearing them cry. I feel like I am making them suffer...it feels worse because we had a good solid two weeks of our bedtimes being quick and both going down in under 10 minutes...

[Layla]

APOP - accidental parenting on purpose... so in your case, you are helping your LO's have the catnap, which a lot of babies fight but they still need it as they can't make it to bedtime.

How long was it between the end of the catnap and bedtime for little twin? I found around 5 months, the A was about the same before bedtime, even on a 30min catnap. Maybe she wasn't quiet tired enough for bed yet and then worked herself into an overtired state. Be careful trying too hard to help them sleep. If you see that she's mantra crying and its not "I need you cry" and you interfere, that can make things worse.

What were you doing 2 weeks ago? How were they going down in under 10mins?

[nippo]

2 weeks ago we did a night of controlled crying. Checking in at 5 minute intervals and shush patting under the guidance of a sleep consultant. It worked really well as from that night onwards they pretty much slept until 5am. I just found it very hard to hear them cry so decided I would do shush pat instead. After that night we had no problem putting them down and they went to sleep after about 3 minutes on average and we shush patted them whenever they woke up rather than letting them CIO.

They were very responsive and shush patting seemed to take around 10mins until 2 days ago. Little twin seems to be right back at the beginning. Last night after going to sleep, she rewoke at 10 and cried for 2 hours again. I briefly took her out for a nappy change and as soon as she was out of the cot all of the crying stopped and she started chattering to me and laughing which I ignored. I just changed her and put her back in the cot. As she was calm I left the room and 5 minutes later the crying started again so my husband and I took turns shush patting. She was tired as her crying was broken with 30 seconds to a minute of sleep. Then she would wake up and start again. It was like she had another little surge of energy. Eventually she fell asleep at 23.45 and didn't wake until 5am when we fed her.

I don't think it is hunger, prior to sleep training she habitually woke at 10 and we fed her and then at 1am and then at 5. For two weeks she hasn't needed any of the feeds minus the 5am. And her daytime feeds increased from 90-150mls to 200mls which is what she should have been taking. She has always been on a 24hour day...