Author Topic: Help with 4.5 month NWs (Read 2500 times)

Vp · « **on:** January 15, 2014, 09:01:48 am »

Dear all, I am new in the forum and this is my first post.
My daughter is 4 and half months and always had a restless sleep during the night. I would feed her once at night but in the morning she would take hardly any milk. After our pediatrician's advice we started to wean her off of the night feeding by introducing a dreamfeeding at 11pm and feeding her again at 7am. During the day she is still in a 3 to 3 1/2 h cycle of breastfeedings. The problem is that she wakes every hour or so after 4am and during the day I notice she is too tired which is causing her naps to be terrible, 45 min max.
We do a bedtime routine and at 7h30pm she is in bed and goes down quite easily. I swaddle her and put her dummy for naps and bedtime. During the night, when she wakes she never ever cries but whines. Everytime she does it I go there and check if her eyes are open. If she is fully awake I put her paci back and do shush for a while. However, she never goes back to deep sleep again and after 15 min or so she is back to the whining. Do you think it might be a pacifier addiction? or can it be hunger? She never gives real hunger signs which makes it hard for me to really tell whether it is a hunger issue... well, thanks in advance for any advice.

Shiv52 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 15, 2014, 09:36:11 am »

Personally I would feed at 4am. 11-4 is a long enough stretch at night. Both mine were having a DF plus at least one NF at that age. I'd feed and if she resettles to sleep much easier and stays asleep then you can pretty sure it's hunger x

Vp · « **Reply #2 on:** January 15, 2014, 12:41:41 pm »

thanks for your reply! I will definitely try a few times and see if she settles. I do think that the pacifier has something to do with it as during daytime she is only able to sleep longer than the 45 min if at the end of the sleep cycle her dummy is still in her mouth; when it is not, most of the times she doesn't resettle. I do wonder why this is not an issue in the first long stretch of sleep during night when her dummy is off her mouth...

Shiv52 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 15, 2014, 14:32:48 pm »

45 minute naps are quite common at this age but it could be a paci issue. I found reinserting the paci the second mine started to stir helped extend the nap without them waking and after a few week they transitioned through themselves.

If you want to post your routine we can take and look and see does anything need tweaked to help your naps.

Vp · « **Reply #4 on:** January 22, 2014, 11:11:07 am »

Hi,
so our days with 45 min naps are roughly like this:

out of bed between 7 and 7h30, quick nappy change and breastfeed
A: 1h30, tried longer times but she gest really cranky and cries.
S: starting at 8h30 or 9 depending on wake up time; last 45 min. Tried to do nap extension (without success) using shush/pat and most of the timed also put the dummy in her mouth and leave the room
F: between 10h30 - 11h
A: here I always try a longer activity time around 1h45 to 2h starting from the time she woke up from last nap
S: between 11h45 - 12h, at this nap I always try to extend it and leave her in bed longer than in the morning one.
F: around 14h
S: 15h30, 16h most of the days
F: 17h to 17h30
Bedtime routine, bath around 18h30, quick feed at 19h, story and bed, swaddled and with dummy.
Dreamfeed at 11pm
As I mentioned before she doesn t give me hunger signs and because of her short naps I end up feeding her every 3 to 3h30 hours...

Then, in the last 2 days she started waking up crying at 10pm and 10h30pm settling immediatly with the dummy...

Shiv52 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 23, 2014, 11:17:43 am »

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

I think you need to get that first A time pushed out. She really should be doing at least 2 hours which is why you are getting an UT nap. Extending won't work as she's just not tired enough to sleep. You will have to help her manage the longer A time initially if she's cranky. I'd do 1.40 for a few days then 1.50 then get upto 2 hours as that will help that first nap.

I wonder is she getting OT through the day and that's why you are getting those 10/10.30 wakings. How long does she sleep at the naps?

Vp · « **Reply #6 on:** January 23, 2014, 15:18:24 pm »

Well, today was quite odd as she gave me a 2h nap in the morning! The only difference today was that we decided to start the day earlier at 6.30am as she was restless since 5am! I put her to bed at 8am and she slept beautifully. Of course her dummy did not fall during sleep cycle transitions which helps a lot.
As I mentioned before, on normal days her naps are 45 min and, if I manage to stick the paci on time (or whenever she keeps it in her mouth like today) I get 1h 1/2 or even 2 but very exceptionally. But even today, after the 2h nap I could see that after 1h she was yawning and rubbing her nose again as if she was ready to go to bed! We then went for a walk and I managed to keep her awake for almost 2h but I could really tell I was pushing too much...

If she is indeed overtired how can I cut this cycle in order to start increasing her awake times?

Shiv52 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 23, 2014, 17:25:36 pm »

So after 2.5 Hours a time you got a 2 hour nap? That's fab. I do think increasing that first A time is key.

OT could be an issue if after an UT nap the next A time is too long which leads to OT naps etc. so in the day you posted doing 1.45-2 hours after a 45 minute nap could well lead to OT when her first A time is only 1.30.

I think increasing a times to at least 2 hours gradually will help and then you'll likely need to increase again once you get there. If you feel she is getting really tired I'd put down a bit early for sure. If though it's getting you silly short naps she may need a push to get used to new A times to get decent naps to keep on top of OT.

You're doing great. Hope you get another decent nap today!

Vp · « **Reply #8 on:** January 24, 2014, 07:21:19 am »

Thanks you so much for your suggestions and comments! You are completely right shen you say that I have to refrain long activity times and maybe go progressively.
Yesterday she fought the afternoon catnap badly and had only 10 min sleep! I then took her out, played a lit bit and put her to bed again after 45 min or so and she slept 40 min. Of course this pushed the bedtime a bit later than our usual 7pm with 2 awakings at 9pm and 11pm

the first one was settled with the paci but thd second was already time for the df so we feed her. But after this hard evening start the night went fine and she only woke at 6am!
So lets see how it goes today!

vania

Shiv52 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 24, 2014, 10:13:14 am »

Yes I'd add 10 minutes to that first A time and then again in another few days.

I think the fact you got such a good nap yesterday after a really decent A time proves shes ready for a bump.

Hope today goes well x

Vp · « **Reply #10 on:** January 24, 2014, 11:03:07 am »

Hi again,
the first nap was again 45 min

no dirty diaper, no need for burp, so dont know what went wrong. I am wondering if yesterday's long 1st nap had something to do with the poor night she had before, full of wakings...
So, I took her out of bed at 9, feed her again at 9.45 and put her to bed again at 10.20 as she was all grumpy and she is still sleeping (it is 12.00). I know this is becoming more of a Naps post rather than Night wakings but I feel this is all related!
well, just wanted to share how things went.
cheers, vania

Shiv52 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 24, 2014, 22:53:41 pm »

That's no problem. Naps and NWs are most often interlinked.

So what time was she awake first thing and what time did you do the nap?

Vp · « **Reply #12 on:** January 27, 2014, 09:47:30 am »

I did 1h45 min between awake time and first nap. However,yesterday the same activity time resulted in a 2 h nap again. It looks totally random! But I do believe the key is to lengthen the A time.

My other big problem is still with the NW: she keeps waking up around 4am and previously, I was putting her dummy after which she would settle only to wake up again 40 min later and keep doing this till I would pick her up and start the day. After reading that maybe she is truly hungry, even with a df at 11pm, I decided to feed her so i get her up and she drinks actively from both breasts. Then she takes quite some time to get back to sleep but when she does it she sleeps until 6h30, 7h. It is better than not sleeping at all! However, since these wakings are almost to the clock I am just afraid she will create the habit of eating in the motn. As I said before she never ever cries for food, not even during the day but every time I offer my breast she will eat! I am really exhausted, in these 5 months I never ever a good night of sleep so I wonder what am I doing wrong?

Shiv52 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 27, 2014, 11:16:24 am »

At 5 months both mine had a DF and a MOTN feed so if she's waking and not settling I'd say hunger is the cause and I would feed right away and you'll likely find she'll settle quicker. The fact she keeps waking would tell me she's hungry as opposed to habit. 11-4 is a pretty good stretch at 5 months and would be considered STTN. I think they measure it in 5 hour time periods at this age.

What helped me was doing the BT feed at 8 ish then handing the baby to DH. I had a bath and read or whatever then got into bed early about 9.30. DH brought the baby to me at 11pm and I fed in bed then he took her back and burped her and sorted her back to sleep. So although it was disrupted I pretty much did the DF dozing so I got from 9.30-4/5 in bed sleeping which really helped then I got up and did the NF then. Would something like that work? DH was better at staying up but rubbish at the MOTN so he was in chArge 8-4 then I took back over.

Hugs x

Vp · « **Reply #14 on:** January 27, 2014, 13:42:30 pm »

Thanks you sooo much for sharing your experience with me!

I do feel I need to feed her but the fact she does not ask explicitely, like crying! , together with the advice of my paediatrician saying that 11pm should be the last feeding, makes me extremely insecure. In addition, reports from colleagues from my home country (portugal) saying they put their babies in bed at 10 or 11 pm and get a whole night without wakings till next morning make me wonder whether my early bedtime, 7pm, is causing this NW.... but she gets so upset if I try to postpone her BT and honestly, it suits our lives very well as I can cook dinner with my partner and have some time for ourselves before our bedtime. Oh God, how I wish babies would come with an intructions leaflet!

Shiv52 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 28, 2014, 10:16:50 am »

Honestly your LO is doing GREAT at night. A DF and a NF is perfect at this age and totally totally normal. Especially when BFing. Although she doesn't cry the fact she's not settling for any length of time without a feed would convince me it's hunger. So don't feel bad about feeding. In a few weeks you can look at cutting down a bit if needs be.

It think your evening sounds lovely. It's fab to have some time with your OH and get some time together before bed x

Vp · « **Reply #16 on:** January 28, 2014, 13:19:05 pm »

Thanks again for the support. I will keep you posted of any improvements or changes with her behaviour just for the sake of this thread, I believe there are many mothers with the same issue!

Regarding her daytime naps, just wanted to let you know that since sunday my LO has been taking a 2h nap in the morning! I believe it is to compensate the weak sleep from 4 am onwards. But the afternoon nap has also been quite good, 2h with a break after the 1st 45 min when I put the dummy back. I don t know if this is good or bad, in the sense that it steals hours of sleep from the night

but I want her to get some rest. Increasing her A time was the key! she is now with 2h and I will try to push it slowly.

x

Shiv52 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 28, 2014, 17:50:13 pm »

That is awesome. Some LO at this age have 2 naps of 1.5 and a CN of 45 minutes. Others seems to be prefer two longer naps of 2 hours. 4-4.5 hours of day time sleep at this age is totally fine. Hurray for fab naps!!!

Vp · « **Reply #18 on:** February 03, 2014, 06:28:51 am »

Just an update of the last days: I have an activity time of 2 h and naps have been varying between 1h to 2h ocasionally. The NW persist and she wakes every night at 4 am to the dot! I tried to feed her at this time but she gets to sleep for more 40 min and wakes up again so, although she takes the feed, I am assuming she is not really hungry as the feed is exactly doing what the paci does, I.e. she goes back to sleep for one cycle and then wakes up moaning again. This lasts until I go pick her up to start the day. So, again I am clueless why is she waking up... can it be that she slept all she needed by 4 am?! she goes to bed bw 7 and 7.30 pm.

Skadiver13 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 03, 2014, 18:25:37 pm »

Hi Hun, it sounds like she needs more pushing on the A time. Can you post your current EASY?

Shiv52 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 04, 2014, 13:21:46 pm »

I agree with needing to push that A time a bit. More A time in the day will help the night sleep over all x

Vp · « **Reply #21 on:** February 10, 2014, 16:11:41 pm »

Well, a new update: My LO is still waking up at 4 o´clock every night no matter what.

I didn't post our routine before because this last week we have been trying to wean her off the swaddle for nap time (we are still not ready for night as well as I am so afraid of the consequences!) and naps are a bit crazy. However, i must say it is going better than i thought

But regarding the night waking at 4am nothing changed

Our nurse advised me to put a spoon of cereals in her 11pm bottle of EBM to see if she would sleep better but didn't help and, in fact, at 7am she wasn't very hungry so after a 3 day trial i gave up the cereals. She simply isn't hungry at that time. Today, after waking at 4am she fell asleep again around 6h and slept till 7h30. Is there anything like baby insomnia? i am getting a bit crazy. Next month she will go to daycare and i can imagine she will be extremely tired by then as they push activity times quite a lot. If she does start sleeping better then i know it was something to do with her daytime routine. Fingers crossed!

Shiv52 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 11, 2014, 23:06:42 pm »

Have you tried wake to sleep? If the waking has become habitual sometimes waking them a half hour before they normally always wake helps get them out of the habit. Not fully awake but enough just to rouse her a little and then go straight back to sleep. May be worth a try.

What A time are you at? The A times just a lot at this age so it could be you need a bump.

Vp · « **Reply #23 on:** February 12, 2014, 10:00:37 am »

Hi!
I read about W2S and have been considering doing it this weekend. But i am a bit scared of trying to be honest

Our A times are now between 2-2h30. But i see it depends very much on the quality of the daytime naps and, for the morning nap, it really depends on how the night went.

Last night for instance she woke at 4am and I went there at 4.30, changed her nappy and gave her a quick feed (i usually don't feed her but yesterday she did look hungry). Around 5am she feel asleep until 7h40! Quite good as usually she only goes into a light sleep from the moment she wakes until 7am when i go and pick her up. So, what i want to say is because she slept quite well after her habitual NW, her awake time this morning was 2h25 which is pretty good for her at this time of the day. I will keep on trying to extend her A and see what happens.

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Author Topic: Help with 4.5 month NWs (Read 2500 times)