Low sleep needs or wrong routine?

[BusterB]

Just to clarify: were you APing all his naps?  Has he never done a long nap in the cot?

Since I started putting him in the cot for his morning nap at 10 weeks old, he has never slept more than 45 mins in there - which has happened maybe 3 or 4 times (the last being on Boxing Day)

So far this year he hasn't even made it to 30 mins in the cot - average is about 28 mins

I AP all other naps though and they can easily be 2 hours plus....

[Sarah - Enfys' Mum]

I really think if you do all naps in the cot you'll see faster progress. It's hard though, he's napping well with AP - for now- and it's so tempting to carry on with it. I get that and yes, sometimes, it's best to use a bit of AP because at least he's getting some sleep but I believe he's making up for the short cot nap.

Are you absolutely 110% sure he doesn't have reflux?

[BusterB]

I really think if you do all naps in the cot you'll see faster progress. It's hard though, he's napping well with AP - for now- and it's so tempting to carry on with it. I get that and yes, sometimes, it's best to use a bit of AP because at least he's getting some sleep but I believe he's making up for the short cot nap.

Are you absolutely 110% sure he doesn't have reflux?

Many thanks for the input Sarah - Enfys' Mum - 100% sure no reflux, he had it for a little while after some medication when he was a few weeks old and he has absolutely none of the symptoms now.

I have tried all naps in the cot a couple of times... ended up with a VERY o/t baby and had no choice but to AP after a few days, so it seemed pointless. 

I've been pretty keen to get him out of the carseat though & we got a new pram yesterday, which lies flat & has a blackout shade - he had a great nap in that yesterday. I realise this is just more of the same Aping-wise, but to me this is a fair compromise if I really can't get him sleeping in the cot.

I'm tempted today to do both his naps in new pram to see if our night improves.... if it doesn't then I'd feel better about trying all naps in the cot again (.... which has been very stressful & frustrating for both my baby and I in past!)

I have a friend who has been Aping all her baby's naps as he wouldn't sleep in the cot at all - her baby is a couple of months older than mine and I just found out that finally this week he started napping in the cot no problems, so I do believe that it could be developmental for my little boy and I perhaps just need to be patient?

[Sarah - Enfys' Mum]

Of course as they get older they do learn to sleep independently, if they are given the chance to do so!
I have no problem with pram sleeping ( my dd2 napped in hers for the first two months for all naps and still does sleep in there from time to time) and if it's closeness he wants while sleeping it might be ok. But if you're having to push the pram around to get him to sleep, then that's different.
No one can tell you how to do this and you have to be ready and want to make a change.

[BusterB]

No one can tell you how to do this and you have to be ready and want to make a change.

This is what I am finding so frustrating Sarah - Enfys' Mum - I don't see putting him down in his cot for naps as a change as I have been doing that for at least his morning nap almost every day for 15 weeks - with absolutely no improvement - which just makes me feel If there was something I could change to help my little one nap better in the cot, I would do it in a heartbeat. All the APOP is pretty wearing, I really hope that i'm not in this situation just through lack of willingness to change.

What else can I do differently with regards to him sleeping in the cot? He is falling asleep 100% independently, I don't think he has any props (?) I have tried a variety of 'A' times to try and eliminate OT/UT, I've tried feeding close to naps, feeding away from naps, I tried W2S lots of times to no success, he doesn't sleep long enough to HTTJ and the one time I thought perhaps he had, he just woke straight up and beamed at me.... I tried various sleep attire, a pillow, radiator on/off, I have black out blinds as I know he prefers it really dark and we have loud white noise playing as we live next to a school playground. I have tried resettling for up to 1.5 hours and he has never once resettled. I just feel lost now really.... and I know he is capable of a long nap because in anything other than the cot he is sleeping just fine 

Today he ended up in the pram for his am nap by circumstance in the end (my OH had a car crash and things were a bit crazy here this morning) and he slept for 1hr 25mins. He is now having his pm nap in there, so at least he should be nicely rested for bedtime.

I am not pushing the pram by the way - BTDT! not falling into that motion trap again - it is stationary in the corner of the bedroom. I think he just likes the closeness and the darkness as it has a blackout cover.

I will try all naps in the cot again though as everyone seems to think that is the way forward, if someone can point me to what I need to do differently though/what I am doing wrong, just so I don't feel like a crazy Groundhog Day lady, I would be very grateful.

[weaver]

Car crash?!  Hope everything's ok, sounds pretty stressful, hun.

I have to agree with Sarah and say loud and clear that something is only a problem if it's a problem for you and your family. Don't do anything because someone said "you should" and I include BWers in that!  So, if him not sleeping in the cot isn't a problem, then don't worry about it. Sleeping in a stationery pram sounds pretty good to me! 

But if you'd rather have him in the cot,  then let's try and help.

I had to do a super-long wind down and stay with my LO1 to get him really asleep every time when we started sleep training.  So, all the usual wind down stuff, close blinds, sit, sh-pat.  Sh-pat in my arms til calm and drowsy, then into the cot, still sh-patting, settle in cot, keep sh and pat but start winding both down.  Til they'd stopped but leave a hand laying on him.  Stay the full 20 minutes or however long til the jolts came.  Watch him settle back and drift into deeper sleep.  Creep out of room.  Sigh.  Put on kettle.   

Yes, I really did have to do this to teach him to sleep.  And it looks like I was ruining his ability to sleep independently but putting him down awake with no intervention was a non-starter.  He was a touchy baby with a streak of spirit who needed every bit of help available.  Now, when we had established this, I started working on Gradual Withdrawal of sh-pat, and the day came where he basically told me he didn't need me any more.  So he had learned.  He is still a super sleeper.

You may have done all of this already, but if not, it is worth trying this 'super wind-down' and see if it helps at all. 

[BusterB]

Car crash?!  Hope everything's ok, sounds pretty stressful, hun.

I have to agree with Sarah and say loud and clear that something is only a problem if it's a problem for you and your family. Don't do anything because someone said "you should" and I include BWers in that!  So, if him not sleeping in the cot isn't a problem, then don't worry about it. Sleeping in a stationery pram sounds pretty good to me! 

Thank you weaver! Luckily no one was hurt in the crash, just damage to the cars, just meant ages on the phone to insurance companies etc!

I'll be totally honest and say that in an ideal world I would want him in the cot, but based on my reality for the  last few months the not napping in the cot really isn't such a big issue for me - I personally feel the priority is having a well rested little boy. But when I came here looking for help with his lack of overall night sleep and asking for tweaks to our routine to try and fix it, the fact he didn't nap well in the cot just came up again and again and it seemed that until I had that sorted, getting help with his routine to try and get better nights wasn't really going to happen.

So if I'm not able to fix the cot naps are we only going to get 9.5/10 hours sleep a night no matter what? I guess I figured a routine tweak might actually be necessary rather than getting him to nap in the cot being the answer.

Thanks also weaver for your explanation of your sleep training - it is really useful to hear how others do things. But i'm a bit confused though as my little one doesn't need any help from me to settle to sleep, I can literally put him in the cot after a fairly short wind down and depending on how accurately I have caught his sleepy window he puts himself to sleep in a matter of minutes - I don't need to use any sssh/pat, rocking or anything. So i'm not sure if you are suggesting that I should be adding those things into our routine? He is a textbook baby in all other respects (with perhaps slight touchy where cot naps are concerned), but I thought that the fact he could do this was a positive sign? I could try adding in some more interventions from me though if that is what will help him sleep longer.....?

[BusterB]

OK, well regardless of the cot issue I do think I need some help with routine please..

I thought today's looked 'perfect' on paper but he has woken up 30 mins after being put to bed and is pretty wide awake, which hasn't happened this early before... so after 2 'good' naps today is obviously under tired... This goes back to why I came here asking about low sleep needs - i'm finding it really tricky to get the right balance.

This was today's EASY:

w/u @ 6:20

E - 6:35am
A - 3hr 5 (inc top up feed at 8:20)
S - 9:25 - 10:50 (1hr 25)

E - 11am
A - 3hr 15 (inc top up feed at 12:15)
S - 2:07 - 3:32 (1hr 25)

E - 3:35
A - 2hr 45 (inc feed at 5pm)
BT inc BF - 6:20

w/u @ 6:55 - so I guess he treated this as a nap?

I guess he didn't seem quite as overtired at bedtime as he does when his naps aren't so great - but I thought that not getting into overtired was a good thing?

Should I have just pushed him beyond the 12 hour day into OT before bed? What is going wrong here?

[Sarah - Enfys' Mum]

Ah, weaver said it much better than me!!!  If he's happy napping in the pram and you're happy with him napping in the pram then it's ok.  Gah. I wish I was better with words

[BusterB]

Ah, weaver said it much better than me!!!  If he's happy napping in the pram and you're happy with him napping in the pram then it's ok.  Gah. I wish I was better with words

no you've both been really helpful - thank you! I am very grateful.

I am happy with him napping in the pram as long as it doesn't impact on our nights, which it does appear to be doing unfortunately! 

He is still awake now - he has been WIDE awake for almost 2 hours, but is now at least quiet in his cot. Good naps seems to really affect his nights, looks like perhaps i'm going to have to keep him at overtired with rubbish naps - which seems all wrong!?

[weaver]

It's the length of the nap and whether there are any props, I suppose, that matter more than where it takes place.  A stationery buggy is just next door to a cot. If you were feeding him to sleep every time, only had him sleeping in a moving car, etc, etc, then I'd push you (gently!) to change it.  If he's reliably hitting 1 hr 25 for naps in the non-moving pram without your assistance, then I think you're ok for naps.

Re: today.  How many good nap days have you had?  Just today?  Cos it can take a few days to catch up on the OT.  Waking 30 mins after BT for us was always OT, and it was rock hard to get him to sleep again.  (Sorry to say).

[BusterB]

It's the length of the nap and whether there are any props, I suppose, that matter more than where it takes place.  A stationery buggy is just next door to a cot. If you were feeding him to sleep every time, only had him sleeping in a moving car, etc, etc, then I'd push you (gently!) to change it.  If he's reliably hitting 1 hr 25 for naps in the non-moving pram without your assistance, then I think you're ok for naps.

That is very reassuring to know indeed! Yes he can do long naps, stationary, without much input from me - so that's a good start!

Re: today.  How many good nap days have you had?  Just today?  Cos it can take a few days to catch up on the OT.  Waking 30 mins after BT for us was always OT, and it was rock hard to get him to sleep again.  (Sorry to say).

Well we had a decent run of really good naps a couple of weeks ago and he started waking shortly after bedtime, being hard to settle and long middle of the night cot parties - he was definitely under tired!

Then I went back to napping him in the cot in the mornings and his total day sleep dropped from 4 hours to 2/2.5 and all the above vanished and instead we just have early wakings and only 9.5 hours of sleep per night.

With either of these there are still at least 2 NWs though...

Not that I trust that I can always spot the difference, but he really didn't seem OT to me tonight - he wasn't upset or anything, just awake. When we put him back in the cot he would play with his lovey and then after a while, when he realised he couldn't sleep, eventually start crying until we took him out again and then he'd stop instantly - then repeat.

He is much easier to deal with at night when he has had shorter naps.... he doesn't wake until much later in the night and is much easier to resettle.

Does that make sense or am I mis-reading my baby?

[weaver]

No, sounds to me like you've a good analysis there. There are some folks on here with better LSN experience than mine, so I'll stand back and let them chip in. Time for bed for me!

[Sarah - Enfys' Mum]

I'm coming to the conclusion that dd2 is much the same... She loves to nap but I have to be very careful or she parties all night.

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Tink is better at lsn babies than I am,  but I do remember that almost as soon as we were through the 3-2 we were having to cap naps cos his A times were increasing so quickly.  If you think he was UT at bedtime yesterday, I would try 3hrs 20 and 3hrs 30 A's before each nap today. Plus, I know 12hr days are generally advised but we've never gotten more than an 11 / 11.5hr night here so they just weren't possible, except if J was OT and we did it as a one off. So I would plan on a 12.5 - 13 hr day (unless he has rubbish naps), and try and keep your last A to around 3hrs. If you need to slightly cut your last nap to keep a 13hr day max then I would.

What do you think?