10 min wakings terrible naps at my wits end

[Laurenrobbo]

Ok our naps are not getting better no matter I seem to try! I used to be able to count on him waking at about 35 mins so I was starting to do w2s at 30 mins to extend nap, so 3 days ok I did this and got the nap to 1hour 20! Brill or so I thought!!!

Yesterday and today when I put him down he seems to be waking/stirring every 10 mins.

He goes down OT so I know that's a problem, when he gets tired we have a little walk round the house, come into his room, curtains closed, he's put in his sleeping bag, and we sit and have a cuddle, once his eyes start with the sleepy closing I put him in the cot, he then seems to be wide awake so I try to settle him in the cot, I've tired sh/pay with not much luck, I've tried just leaving my hand on his chest, today I tried gently rocking him which seem to work ok. I wait until his dummy falls out, continue with the rocking, once he seems settled, I stop the rocking (or sh/pat when I did that) but keep my hand on him for a few mins, then I remove hand and within in two minutes he's stirring/whining and only hung to settle him is to put the dummy back in and start the cycle again! So I don't know when to do the w2s as he doesn't seem to properly fall asleep, the only thing I can do at the minute is sit by his cot for the duration to make sure he gets some sleep, which is where I am now! He doesn't seem to have come into his light sleep yet!

I'm at my wits end and don't know what else to try!

He is 15 weeks, Feds every 3 hours during the day (formula), I've tried getting to sleep in different places ie car seat, bouncy chair, I've tried longer activity times, shorter ones trying to catch him at the right window and nothing seems to work, so any suggestions

As our S is so poor our EASY is something like is
AEASEAS ETC

So yesterday was
WU 0645
E 0700
A
S 0830 (but didn't fall asleep until 0900)
A 0920
E 1000
A
S 1040
A
S 1200
A 1230
E 1300
A
S 1430 (didn't fall asleep until 1500)
A 1530
E 1600 (wouldn't  take full feed)
A
S 1730
E 1800
A bath
E 1900 (small feed)
S 1930 bed

I don't DF anymore as it didn't prolong him and he still feed the same every night. He sleeps quite well at night, has one feed, and usually a couple of wakings that he goes back to sleep with his dummy. He goes to sleep at bedtime, and after his feed usually without his dummy, and I've heard him wake a few times recently but settle himself. So overall nights are good.

So can anyone make any suggestions?

Sorry for long post but wouldn't to try to include everything, if you need to know anything else please ask away

Lax

[lauradj]

Hugs to you, that's no fun at all!  Just looking over your EASY, is every nap 10 mins or so?  So each nap is between 10-35 minutes?  That's really, really draining on you!  I'll just throw a couple of suggestions out from what I've done/learn/seen.  My DS is 5.5 months. 

Does he genuinely cry when he wakes at the 10 min mark, or just fuss?  I used to/still sometimes do, set my phone on stopwatch when DS woke half way through his nap and I wouldn't go in for 20 minutes, OR if he started to cry.  I really relied on Tracy's description of the difference between Mantra cry and genuine "Mommy I need you" cry.  The genuine cry begins to escalate in volume and there is no pause or moments when they quiet down.  Frequently DS does a little fuss (quiet chit chat, some vowel sounds) at the 45min mark and then settles himself but sometimes it would take almost a full 20 minutes.  It rarely ever approaches something like a cry but it's hard to sit through when you really want them to go back to sleep.

Another thing, my DS does not like it when we hang by the crib.  I still have to coach my husband on this because he tends to linger over the crib and it is not soothing for our LO.  It's just a thought because you mentioned you're getting quite frazzled but might that be the case with your LO? 
Food for thought, I'm just throwing ideas out there.   

[Phoebnix]

I agree with lauradj - I also learned that I was hovering too much and preventing sleep. I didn't want my child to cry AT ALL - but, sometimes they need to settle themselves. Fussing seems quite normal from my experience. I had the same problems as you though, although my child didn't sleep through the night either. My baby is 18 months old now and I'm on the thread for the 2-1 transition. It will get better! Stick it out. You are doing a fantastic job and your post shows that you really care! They can feel tension so try to be calm

[Laurenrobbo]

Thanks ladies - things can only get better eh?!!!

I try to leave him for a few mins to see if he will re settle or not, but he doesn't seem to! He doesn't always reach a full on cry but I think sometimes if I leave him doing the mantra cry then he's more likely to wake up more? Maybe that's not the case and I should leave him longer! I have tried leaving the room, and I also try and sit behind his cot so he can't see me but maybe my presence is enough to keep him unsettled! Maybe I need to take a further step back and leave him a little longer. It did use to really stress me and I think he would of picked up on that but now I've decided there is no point stressing so hopefully I come a cross calmer to him!!

Today has been slightly better - this morning nap he woke/fussed every ten mins for half an hour but then slept for about 50 mins - I had the weaning nurse so it wS my husband who went in and he had somehow managed to completely wet himself with pee so he may of gone longer ! Then this afternoon he went down pretty much straight away but he woke at the 30 min mark and I managed to get another 10 mins out of him, and he then had a 40 min nap In the stroller on a walk. If I could get him down straight away ish that would be great as I then could time the 30 min mark better to do the w2s!! I think one issue is he heavily relies on his dummy for these day naps so I do need to work on this being less like at night as he is often unsettling in search for his dummy ( can see his little mouth searching for it).

So I will try taking more of a step back and see how he goes, how long should I leave him before trying to help him get to sleep!? I'm worried if he just mantra cries and I just leave him he'll do this for the whole time he should be napping and then get no sleep!!

thanks for your eyes looking at this  !!

L x

[lauradj]

You are doing an amazing job and that's great the naps have been a bit better today.  I honestly do give my DS a solid 20 mins before I go in if he's just fussing.  When I started doing that at around 1.5months, his naps lengthened almost immediately.  To be fair, my Mom is the one who reminded of the difference between fussing and crying.  I had read it but when my Mom was over she stopped me from going in too soon.
My nap routine with him begins 10 mins before he's supposed to be asleep, so for this afternoon's nap we headed in to his room at 12:45ish.  I turn on his lullaby music, read him a quiet story or two if he seems a little jacked up (!), then I put him in his sleep sack, close the drapes, switch the lullaby music to white noise, sing him a lullaby, give him a smooch and put him in the crib.  That's when I leave and usually I go do something right away because I know he'll take a couple of minutes to fall asleep.  There are times when he get so vocal at around the 45-60 min mark that I'm really not sure if I should go in or not, for the reason you mentioned.  I don't want him to get so awake he can't go back to sleep.  I guess at some point you just have to trust your gut.  If I do have to go in, I go in, close the door behind me and pick him up without talking and just rub his back and shhhhhh until he calms down and get quiet.  The difference is that when I go into wake him I'm big smiles and I engage with him right away.  He seems to have learned the difference.  Sometimes I have to do this twice but it's very rare, if I have to go in three times I know he's not going back to sleep and I let him wake but I'm very strict with wake up and go to bed times.
Let me know if you have any more questions.  You really are doing a fantastic job!   

[Laurenrobbo]

Thank you! That's a good guide for me!

I've just missed my window of opportunity with him at this nap, I was busy eating breakfast when he decided he was ready for his nap so he was crying when he went down but I just popped the dummy in and gently rocked him (after a quick wind down) and he seems to have gone off ok, had to pop the dummy in a couple of times to calm him, but I've left the room or sat hidden behind his cot rather than next to it! Fingers crossed, I will bob in at the 30 min mark to help him through this transition if needed! But for his next naps where I won't hopefully miss the window if he just starts with his fussing I will leave for up to 20 mins and sees what happens!! It's good to have a bit of guide to know what to aim for!

Not sure if this will have any affect big after questioning on here about one if his feeds I think I have realised that he needs to be heading towards a 4 hour easy so I'm upping his feeds and trying to push him to 3.5 hour feeds! Maybe this will help with naps too! Although this morning he didn't finish his bigger feed!

Thanks again appreciate your eyes looking at it for me!!

L x

[Laurenrobbo]

Ok here is how this nap went!

Went in at 30 mins so I could do w2s but he already had his eyes open, legs kicking and rubbing his face (this is one of his tires cues!) so he wasn't crying or anything, I tries to put the dummy in as a quick suck on this has previously sent him back to sleep - no such luck! He started babbling so thought I would grab a shower out of his way and see what happened,  towards end of shower he started getting louder and wailing, after shower he was wailing and screaming so went in a couple of times to put dummy in see if he would settle, nope (each time left room!). So went in and picked him up, just sshh to him when he seemed calm put him down, as soon as he hit the mattress started crying! Went out left a few mins then back in for a pick up! Same think just sshh then down when calm, two mins later crying again. I've switched the night light on his monitor and he's stopped the crying but he's still making fussy noises so hrs not going back to sleep! He's just started crying and as soon as I've gone I  and put light on to get him up he's giggling! I guess he could be hungry as he didn't finish all his feed but he's not doing his hungry cry yet!

I think next nap I'll go in at the 25 min mark and hopefully I won't miss the transition to try w2s but if I do and the same happens as above what do you think I try? Don't bother putting the dummy in and just try pu/pd??

Something will click eventually I'm sure! I just feel sorry for him when I can see how tired he is! I do think he may have lower sleep needs than some babies - how would I know this for sure?

L x

[weaver]

Waking up after ten mins says to me that he wasn't 'really' asleep in the first place.  I would go with HTTJ rather than W2S for that sort of issue.  He may be the sort of baba who needs more winding down time and assistance (to begin with, see below...).

He does sound like he's OT in general.  What A time are you going for? At 3 months the average is 1 hr 20-30.  This is an average, so he may need more or less.

If he's starting OT, as you say, you might want to consider a spot of APOPing to get him to catch up.  If he will sleep in a sling, for example, it's a good way of helping him get over the OT. Don't do it for every nap, or you will create a habit, but keep it as a tool in your toolbox.  I wouldn't necessarily jump from him being OT to thinking he's being low sleep needs, either.  I'd hold off on that sort of conclusion until he's a bit more rested.

Two more thoughts that might help. Do you know his personality type?  Also, sounds like you've tried lots of different things to help him. But babies really love consistency, yes, to a boring extent, they love the same thing all the time. So, if you work out his personality type, it might help you work out a really good wind-down that works for him.  For example, spirited babies can be annoyed by the patting bit of sh-pat, but maybe like back rubs instead, or, a hum instead of a sh. 

My LO1 was touchy and spirited and we had to have a really consistent, and quite long, wind down for him.  This involved shushing him in my arms and then in the cot, and gradually slowing that down while he was in the cot, til it stopped and he was asleep. I did this religiously for weeks and he learned really well to associate those things with sleep, to the extent that he then did not need to big wind-down, he just popped off to sleep on his own   But some babies (like my LO1) need more active involvement in winding-down and sleep teaching.  It really pays off in the end. 

Some links that might help:
What does a good wind down consist of (Includes 4S ritual)
Shush-pat - How to
The BW "Know Your Baby Quiz"

[Laurenrobbo]

So today has been terrible, I'm going to write it off - i think he has had about 2 hours sleep all day. He was so cranky at bath time and going down for bed was harder than normal. So I could really do with some fresh eyes on this and a suggestion of what to try ...please!

Weaver thanks for your reply - in answer to your questions
yes when the 10 mins thing was happening i guessed he wasn't really asleep - he used to settle quite quick, his arms stopped, breathing became shallow, dummy fell out and he didn't murmur for it so I though great he's on his way but then at the ten min mark he woke/stirred/cried, and the cycle started again and this went on for about half an hour - today this didn't happen he just fussed and whined for 30 mins and slept for approx 30 mins.

I know for sure he is over tired - its such a vicious circle i just can't break. A time would be 1.5 hours when he has had a good nap (can only remember 2 times recently but he seemed comfortable at 1.5 A)  BUT with these rubbish naps I think he's ready for sleep after 1 hour. I have just been trying to get him to sleep when he shows sleepy signs either a yawn or head rubbing.

Tried APOP! we have a carrier and I've used this a few times can only get a 30 min nap, tried letting him sleep in my arms again after 30 mins awake. Tried using pram and going for a walk - the other day I walked for 50 mins until he fell asleep and then he only stayed for 20. So how could I encourage longer in the carrier to get some sleep into him? I know once i start getting some better sleeps it should be easier all round right ?

When we took the quiz he came out as a textbook baby with a spirited touch to him. I am well aware I've tried too many things - I'm confused so he must be extremely confused - I now have no idea what he likes now so no idea what to stick with/what works/what he likes.

So any suggestions as what wind down to try, and to stick with when he's in the cot? I'm willing to stay in over the next week and really work at this - if I have to spend all day in his room so be it!

It's really getting me down at the minute as I feel like I'm letting him down. I know i need to help him learn this skill but have no idea how to help him any more

Any suggestions again greatly received!

L x

Ps just another little note which may have affected today but i think his teeth are doing 'something' he's been drooling, chewing fingers and rosy cheeks on and off. He hasn't been drinking full feeds either today - don't know if that's tiredness or he's just not hungry but he's not quite been himself on top of the OT !!!

[TB9]

Hi hun!  Lots of (((hugs))).  I remember your thread earlier this month on the reflux board, sorry things arent going so well nap wise
Do you still suspect silent reflux?  How did the switch to lactose free formula go for him?

[lauradj]

You are most definitely NOT letting him down! (HUG!) 
I agree with weaver that consistency is the key.  Is there someone who can come by and sit in the house while your DS sleeps?  Just for one or two naps on the weekend?  That way you can go out for a walk or a coffee all by yourself and take a break.  Also, having someone else there while he's fussing/fighting sleep, might provide you with some fresh eyes on the situation.  I also think you need to make sure you DON'T stay in the room all week!  Leave as soon as he's in his crib.  Although it's super frustrating for you that he only slept for 30 minutes the other day, the thing to remember is that although he fussed for 30 minutes, he also fell asleep.
Tracy says take a full 20 mins to wind your child down, I take 10 mins because that's all my DS needs but as weaver said, some babies need lots of time to chill out.  I would suggest you write down your routine and make sure you follow it to the letter, every time.  Without fail for naps we always go in this order; into room, close the door, put on lullaby music, read book in the rock n' glide, turn off lights, put DS into grobag, draw blinds, switch on white noise, lullaby and bed.  It works for us but you'll know what works best for your baby.
Also, I would suggest ditching the dummy, it sounds like it's becoming a bit of prop  

[Laurenrobbo]

Hi hun!  Lots of (((hugs))).  I remember your thread earlier this month on the reflux board, sorry things arent going so well nap wise
Do you still suspect silent reflux?  How did the switch to lactose free formula go for him?

Well lactose free made no different so HV put us on nutramigen which seems to have stopped the fussy feeding, and his dry skin has cleared. So I think this has improved things in one way, funnily enough the first few days on this he settled a lot better for naps but this haas now obviously gone hay wire. I do still wonder if he has a touch of silent reflux, so keep him up right after feeds and his cot is raised ! I don't know what else to do on this either, wether this milk is doing him any good, my husband thinks otherwise! In a way he seemed better on the comfort milk as he seemed to settle better but feeding was a nightmare!
 
In fact now I think about yesterday and so far today he's been rubbish at feeding, taking about 4oz per feed (except his NF whe  he's sleepy 7oz there) he drinks his 4oz but then jus pushes the bottle in and out his mouth like a game ;0)! So I honestly have no idea if this milk is best for him or not!

L x

[Laurenrobbo]

You are most definitely NOT letting him down! (HUG!) 
I agree with weaver that consistency is the key.  Is there someone who can come by and sit in the house while your DS sleeps?  Just for one or two naps on the weekend?  That way you can go out for a walk or a coffee all by yourself and take a break.  Also, having someone else there while he's fussing/fighting sleep, might provide you with some fresh eyes on the situation.  I also think you need to make sure you DON'T stay in the room all week!  Leave as soon as he's in his crib.  Although it's super frustrating for you that he only slept for 30 minutes the other day, the thing to remember is that although he fussed for 30 minutes, he also fell asleep.
Tracy says take a full 20 mins to wind your child down, I take 10 mins because that's all my DS needs but as weaver said, some babies need lots of time to chill out.  I would suggest you write down your routine and make sure you follow it to the letter, every time.  Without fail for naps we always go in this order; into room, close the door, put on lullaby music, read book in the rock n' glide, turn off lights, put DS into grobag, draw blinds, switch on white noise, lullaby and bed.  It works for us but you'll know what works best for your baby.
Also, I would suggest ditching the dummy, it sounds like it's becoming a bit of prop  

Don't worry I won't stay in his room all week just wanted to make the point if that's what it took that's what I'd do. I think maybe we'll have a calmer week and miss the groups we sometimes go to and just try to concentrate on these naps. During the weeks I'm prettying on my own - my husband works nights so is in bed during the days! I will try your routine as my starting point today and I will try it 20 mins before the 1.5 A and see how we go from there and what I could tweak. And I agree in the dummy but at this point this is sometimes the only thing I can use to get some sleep into him I'm afraid if that goes naps will get even less! But how would I start weaning him off it - is there a thread to read?

Thanks again
L x

[lauradj]

Ah yes, the present but absent hubby.  I know that dance!  My husband has the same schedule in the summer, it's a bit of a bummer    There is a props thread, but I'm not savvy enough to be able to link it here, it's just below the naps thread under the Sleep heading.  I hope today goes well, keep me posted!! 

[weaver]

Lauren, if you've any concerns at all about feeding and so on, please do get them checked out.  With the very best sleep assistance in the world (yours!), he's not going to be able to do it if he isn't comfortable.

Having said that, if you are spending a week focusing on the naps, then I would prioritise two things.  (1) Working out A time, start with a definite plan, stick with it for a few days.  And (2) doing a good wind-down, by that I mean, sticking with him for the first 20 mins and helping him (if he needs it) really settle to sleep. 

It may help you to take notes as you go, about his behaviour, times, and so on.  Reading back over can make a pattern more obvious.

Hugs for doing it all on your own... we're here and you *can* do it.