Author Topic: Sleep experts! I Need help with 4 month waking every 30 minutes!  (Read 1212 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline meags

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 4
  • Location:
Hello!

UPDATE: Information I did not include:
- Our routine is wake at 7, eat, awake for between 1.5 - 2 hrs (depending on cues but is always closer to the 1:30 - 1:40), nap routine (baby massage with music, 5 - 10 mins max) Our eat time sometimes lands in the middle of the awake because he is an every 3 - 4 hour eater and his naps are sometime 1.5 to once in a while 3 hrs!
- naps are between 1.5 - 2hrs, although third nap is difficult at 4 or 5 depending on time of last nap. we never have gotten this into a good nap.
- bedtime routine is change diaper, baby massage with music, kisses, sleep phrase over and over, and then put to bed. (Same as naps a little longer message and some more cuddles but again 10 - 15 max)
-breastfeed every 3 - 4 hours in the day and between 5 - 6hrs  at night for between 20 - 40 mins, both breasts
-wake ups are about  5 - 7 a nights. First half of the night is usually anywhere from 4 - 6 hours of sleep then after that up every 30mins to an hour.
- When he wakes he fussy quietly, sucking his hand, tossing his head back and forth and he will settle for 30 seconds approx. then do this again a few times and then finally his cry become "I am awake cry/ screech" If I shush pat him he is up for about 10 minutes, but if I take my hand off his back before 20 minutes he wakes up within minutes. If I wait the 20 he then wakes up about 30 minutes later.
-He sleeps in crib right next to our bed (one bedroom apartment) so I wait to help him until the mantra cry has turned to the screech and then I give him a couple minutes to try and work it out himself. Really two minutes is the most and maybe less because it is so hard to hear him cry. I try just laying my hand on his back again but I always end up having to shush pat all over.
- For A time we do floor mat, tummy time, books, swing, games with mommy, walks, of course non of these everytime. I keep A time stimulating but not overly so. We have a quiet apartment and I like it peaceful not noisy or loud in our home. 
- I am unsure about teething but my instinct tells me he started weeks ago with the drool and love of chewing everything. I have often helped him to put the cold teething ring in to chew and he likes that but he likes chewing so who knows? He does love having his gums rubbed.
- no food, just breast milk
-His prop was nursing, and maybe he still seeks that, but we have been doing shush pat for over two weeks and moved feeding to after waking up or at least 30 minutes before bed and not with the bedtime routine. However his night feed does still happen in the bed lying beside me. I feel like the shush pat is now his prop!!!!

Thank you for the help, sorry I didn't include this info sooner!

Hello!

My baby is just about to turn 4 months in a couple days but for the past 2 and a half weeks we have been working on breaking his sleeping prop of nursing to sleep by using the shush pat. It has worked and most nights/naps if I get him in his ideal window he goes to sleep with very little fuss. He was starting to get to the point of eating only once a night about 5 - 6 hours after his last feed. That is still the case but what is happening is that after I feed him and shush pat him back to sleep I keep my hand on his back for about 20 minutes then take it off. Within 20 -30 minutes he is up again. I have tried letting him settle himself but I only let him cry (like real cry no sucking thumb, moaning, mantra cry) for like a max of 2 minutes. After that I shush pat him again, he falls asleep within 10 minutes, I keep my hand on his back another 20, and then voila we start again! I have tried feeding him at the 3 and 4 hour mark again just in case he was hungry but it made not difference. Also he does settle with the shush pat and I know if he was hungry he probably wouldn't, but maybe I am wrong. I am not sure if the issue is now a sleep association with the shush pat but I should also mention that he is always really drools and puts everything he is holding in his mouth to chew (his thumb/hand sucking is mostly chewing). I think he has always been a sucker/chewer though so I am unsure if he is teething. He came out of the womb with a blister on his wrist from sucking!

Its frustrating because for a few nights he seemed to have great sleep! His bed time is between 7 - 8, we have a routine, I work really hard to make sure he gets at least three scheduled naps that are 1.5hrs, 2hrs, and then a third 30-1hr. The last nap around 4 is the worst and often he doesn't get more than 30 minutes.

I really want to know what I am doing wrong to help him get through that 130 - 7 am difficult sleep time. Last night he made it until 330 before fussing which was 3.5 hours after eating. Any thoughts would be very very welcomed!
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 20:19:19 pm by meags »

Offline Layla

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 362
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 8785
  • Tiramisu - my favourite cake
  • Location: Australia
Re: Sleep experts! I Need help with 4 month waking every 30 minutes!
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2014, 03:36:51 am »
Hi there,

I wonder if he's a little overtired by the time he is going to bed... you mentioned his last nap is from 4-4.30pm and then he's going to sleep for the night between 7-8pm, which is a really long stretch for a 4mo. The last nap/catnap can be tricky for a lot of lo's... its the last nap of the day and they are often overstimulated by the end of the day so I wouldn't hesitate taking him out for a walk for this nap or you could put him in a sling to help him out. I used to carry Jennifer in a sling for the last catnap and it didn't affect her ability to learn how to self soothe/independent sleep :)

Would you please post what your day looks like (or has been last couple of days) in the form of EAS?

For example:
7am - awake and eat
9-10.30 - morning nap
.....

At 4 months, you would be aiming at 4hr EASY but if he's breastfed, he may not be able to stretch 4hrs (I know mine didn't and feeds were 3.5hrs apart).

There is also a big growth spurt and sleep regression at this age, which could explain why he may need extra feeds at night...
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 03:45:00 am by Layla »



20/06/2012 - my angel baby

Offline meags

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 4
  • Location:
Re: Sleep experts! I Need help with 4 month waking every 30 minutes!
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2014, 04:11:24 am »
Thank you so much for the reply! I am really in need of some assistance!

The last four days have been a nightmare, I am so tired and frustrated I feel like a total failure. We have had to make a major change today by putting him in a new crib because he has outgrown the bassinet. He is asleep now but awoke after 45 minutes flailing about and realizing he has room to move. It has now added to the upset he is experiencing. Here is an example of how our day has gone and it has been a struggle like this the last few days/nights (I have been using the shush pat for three weeks and to be perfectly honest the first week some AP slipped in but it has been more consistent the last two weeks, however still not perfect)
 
SAT
7:15 - e
730 - 845 - a
845 - 1015 - s
1015 - e
1030 - a
12 - 1 - s
1 - 130 - tried to resettle, almost asleep then would wake and cry
2 - 230 e
230 - 345 - a
345 - 520 - s (had to resettle once, took 20 minutes)
530 - e
650 - 715 - a
715 - 800 - s
800 - resettled and from here we shall see

Oh man I wanted to include Thursday and Friday as well and thinking I would remember them I didn't write the day down. I am in such a fog the details that I obsessed over all day I am unable to organize! I was very similar in that the second nap I remember being very short ( 1 - 145 only) and the total day sleep was only 2.5 hours, and at night he would not settle until 830 after and hour and a half of trying. I hate to admit it but I did end up nursing him because it had been 3 hours since he had eaten and I was worried he was hungry. He then woke at 1230 so I fed him again, and then he woke again at 2, 3, 4, 5- I feed him- 6, and up at 7. I basically slept with my hand on his back for most of the night because he would stir every 30 minutes.

I am also noticing there is a problem with his eating and Layla I think you are right that we need to start moving to a 4 hour easy because I have been letting him snack sometimes and have noticed this has caused my supply to drop and his feeds to be, at times, short. I have also just noticed that he is easily distracted nursing, this is new and if I am in a quiet room with a blanket over him he had a much better feed.

I know that most of this is probably my fault for not being more consistent with feeding because it does tie into sleep. I think I have become so tired I am forgetting the big picture and am going into day to day survival.

My son turns 4 months tomorrow so when we began to try to help him sleep on his own he was three months and a week so we started with shush pat. Unfortunately he was weaned from swaddling around 2.5 months because he would break free to chew his hand and suck his thumb. I wish I had bought a better blanket but he is now so in love with chewing his hand I don't think it would be prudent to put him back into a swaddle.

I guess I am wondering if at this point I feel like we have made such a mess of things if it would be a good idea to start back at the beginning with a very clear schedule and plan for when he does cry. That is something we didn't have and it led to panic and tears and frustration. We are ready to be consistent and I have put my life on hold for weeks trying to get him to sleep better and will continue to do so until my poor boy gets some better sleep. I should mention he is a very touchy baby and over Christmas we were visiting family for a month which I know has had an impact on his ability to handle stress. He was overloaded and overtired for weeks. I feel so bad doing that to him I just had no idea it would be so hard for him.

I am sorry for the long, drawn out post, and I have to say I feel so blessed to have a place to come and get help from women who understand and are SUPPORTIVE to each other. I am really tired of hearing from women I know all the things I am doing wrong, or the worst how their child slept through the night at one week old. Thanks again.

Meags

Offline ZacsMumme

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 425
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 23962
  • You complete me
  • Location: NZ
    • Tomi & Roo Boutique
Re: Sleep experts! I Need help with 4 month waking every 30 minutes!
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2014, 08:09:04 am »
Hugs, 4 mths is such a tough age. Babies change the way they sleep- it's a developmental thing hence the dreaded 4 mth sleep regression!

But, without reading in depth (sorry tired!) and wanting to post, I think waking that frequently is possibly discomfort, or a growth spurt. How are poops? Any reflux or colic?

My first was really touchy, they can be hard work, and easily so and upset.but, they also can be so Loving!

I actually think your latest EAS looks ok! At this age 2 longer naps and a shorter one are common. (3.5-4.5 hrs total day sleep is avge I think) then 11-12 at night but this is often unachievable, my first was more like 10.5 nights.

See how you go with feeding in a quiet room and trying not to have him snack too much. I'd probably try a gentle push for that second A to 2 hrs and see if it helps you get a longer nap. Then keep the A at 2 hrs and go for a -60 min nap with BT 2 hrs later. This is the age that once your LO can do a good 2 hrs A time you can work with a shorter late pm CN and reduce the length down to 30-45 mins. So rites too much day sleep can effect nights.
***Sara***
https://www.facebook.com/tomiandroo


DS1 - Our sensitive soul. Silent reflux.

DS2 Our cheeky chipmunk. Reflux, MSPI.

Offline Layla

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 362
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 8785
  • Tiramisu - my favourite cake
  • Location: Australia
Re: Sleep experts! I Need help with 4 month waking every 30 minutes!
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2014, 23:13:54 pm »
Big (((Hugs))) hun... you're not doing anything wrong at all!!!

With regards to your routine, our morning nap was the first one to lengthen and the rest of the day consisted of 2 catnaps. My LO only started taking 2x1.5-2hr naps consistently when we dropped the 3rd nap/catnap, a transition which for us began around 5 months. So if you can try and extend the 2nd nap, I would only give it another 15-20mins (I used to leave Jenny in the cot for up to an hour from the time she started her nap and sometimes she would put herself back to sleep). If she was crying, I would try and resettle but only up to an hour from when then nap started (so extra 15mins if nap was 45mins or extra 30mins if nap was 30mins), just so I wouldn't get too exhausted. If there was no more S by my end time, I would get her up and do a little more A before E was due.

The last nap (catnap) is often the worst for many people - i would recommend you put him in a sling for this nap, take a walk with him because this nap is only a short one and most babies start to grow out of it around 6 months

The other thing I noticed is that you don't do a final E before bedtime. I understand your fear in being a prop (feeding to sleep) but I have always fed (all my girls) right before bedtime. I think its a really nice way to end the day, feeding her and playing with her hair, getting her nice and ready for sleep. I still feed Jen right before bedtime. This is what our EAS looked like around 4 months from memory ( we had 2 hrs awake time usually except in the morning as I had school drop off and she would sometimes go longer in the morning until we'd get home). Also with regards to feeds, she would usually be able to do 4hrs in the morning but the rest of the day was 3.5hrs between feeds and towards the day even shorter (cluster feed)

6.30 - wake and feed (offer both sides)
9-10.30 - morning nap
wake and feed (both sides)
12.30-1.30 - afternoon nap (sometimes she would sleep more, up to 1.5hrs but 90% of the time it was a short 45min nap)
awake and play time
2ish - feed
3.30ish - catnap
4.15-4.30 - awake and feed (offer one side)
5.30-start bath, bedtime routine
6ish - final feed and in bed, usually done by 6.30pm
At night she would sometimes wake up to 2 times (around 11-12 and I would feed and then another early morning feed sometime around 4-5am and I would often give her one side only and give her the other side when she would wake for the day)

Mine was never swaddled!!! I know people swear by the swaddle but I swear it used to get her really angry so I didn't bother. I have a sleep sac/grobag and I also used safe-t-sleep, which is a wrap and holds them in place in the cot. We just got rid of safe-t-sleep last week because she can now roll on both sides and prefers to roam around the cot before she falls asleep. Mine also took comfort in sucking her hand/fist and is now a thumb sucker. So I wouldn't go back to swaddle now...



20/06/2012 - my angel baby

Offline meags

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 4
  • Location:
Re: Sleep experts! I Need help with 4 month waking every 30 minutes!
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2014, 21:30:01 pm »
Thank you so much Layla for your help. As a first time mom I am experience every high and low all day every day non stop and it is wonderful/exhausting. I never knew there would be so much to be happy about and so much to feel stressed/guilty about.

He had a better day yesterday but nights are still a challenge as he is up every night by 3 or 330. I think you are right that he just still needs two feeds at night. Also he did have some reflux when he was young and it was painful but it seems to be better over the last couple months. Side note for anyone reading this he was a chronic spit up baby with lots of wet burbs and stinky gas. In desperation to help him I gave up dairy and chocolate. I was a huge skeptic of this but I have to say that literally within a couple days I saw a dramatic change and he now rarely ever spits up and not nearly as gassy. I wish I had done it sooner. 



650 - eat and awake
845- 1035 - sleep
1035 - awake
11- eat
1250 - 215 - sleep
300- eat
430 - 500 - sleep (my husband took him for a drive at 4, to help him sleep but he wouldn't fall asleep for 30 mins!)
500 - awake
6 - eat (both sides)
630 - bed routine, in bed by 645 fought sleep, I know I missed his window as he was tired then got a second wind during wind down
745 - asleep.
1145 - eat, both sides
330 - awake, resettled
430- awake so I fed him one side
7 - awake

I have tried to feed him on his first wake up at 330 many times but an 1/2 and hour to an hour after he is up regardless of the feed. I suspect he is in pain as he had taken to constantly grabbing his ears so last night when I feed him at 430 I gave him half a dose of Tylenol. I hate to make it a habit if he is not in pain but I really feel like something is stopping him from transitioning into that deep sleep in the wee hours of the morning. He has pretty much lost his nurse to sleep prop and the shush pat settles him well. I will now make sure to feed him twice in the night. He had his 4 month vaccination today so hopefully he is not too affected by it.

Thank you again

Offline Layla

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 362
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 8785
  • Tiramisu - my favourite cake
  • Location: Australia
Re: Sleep experts! I Need help with 4 month waking every 30 minutes!
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2014, 09:58:17 am »
How are you going? Have things improved at all?



20/06/2012 - my angel baby

Offline meags

  • New & Learning The Ropes!
  • *
  • Showing Appreciation 0
  • Posts: 4
  • Location:
Re: Sleep experts! I Need help with 4 month waking every 30 minutes!
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2014, 00:04:54 am »
Thank you so much for checking in on me! Things are not going that well. I am trying everything I can to get this child to sleep but nothing is working or if he does sleep it is random. Naps are still bad, although yesterday he had two two hour naps and one 45 minute nap but then took 45 minutes to get to sleep. The night before he had a great night and only woke up twice to eat before waking in the morning. There is no reason for this because that day he had a total of 1.5hrs of time only! It makes no sense to me. I have tried more awake time, less awake time and nothing really changes the outcome. If I aim to have him asleep at the 1hr 45 minute mark he seems to settle much easier and yesterday had great naps. Today same timing but terrible naps.

Also I have been doing the shush pat for going on 6 weeks and we are at the point that I can stop patting a couple minutes after his eyes close and he makes it through the jolt by himself but there is a new problem. He has been a stomach sleeper since he was 3 months (he is really strong so I was not worried about this) but in the last couple weeks he has fully learned to roll over and does so often when trying to settle him and throughout the night. He can also roll back onto his tummy but doesn't in the night.

Because of this I think we may need to start getting him used to sleeping on his back or at least side so he is used to all different positions but I don't know how to achieve this. I am also very uncomfortable doing the shush pat now because he likes it firm but I worry that one day if I am too frustrated I might do it too firm. It feels horrible to write that but that's how it is. I sit in the dark for hours a day and night shush and patting and I am tired. I do not know what to do know but I do know that something needs to change and we may end up just going back to co sleeping and constant nursing because I am at loss. He is 4 1/2 months now and is a very very touchy baby. He cannot handle too much stimulation at all and when he cries I worry he gets himself overtired in minutes.

I am really wondering if we should moved to pu/pd to get him used to his back and stop the constant patting, or we are even willing to do CIO even though I never thought that day would come. I am just desperate for him to sleep, for me to sleep, and for us to look forward to the day with joy not dread.

At a total low,

Meags

Offline Layla

  • Resident BW Chatterbox!
  • *****
  • Showing Appreciation 362
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 8785
  • Tiramisu - my favourite cake
  • Location: Australia
Re: Sleep experts! I Need help with 4 month waking every 30 minutes!
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2014, 22:52:43 pm »
Big (((hugs))) Meags, I am so sorry things aren't getting better.

Rolling over was also a nightmare for us... they seem to want to do it when they should be sleeping  ::). Do you use a sleep sac? We have a grobag and I also used safe-t-sleep http://www.safetsleep.com/, which is a wrap (I never swaddled the girls) and stopped my LO (I used it for all 3) rolling over. It is a bit pricey and not everyone is comfortable using it but I found it very safe and I only weaned dd3 from it about a month ago, when she clearly needed the freedom to move around and could roll both ways, crawl, stand up, etc... so that is something you could look at.

With regards to shh/pat, there does come a time when it stops being affective and so if you feel that its not working, you could try pu/pd. Here's a link on how to: How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)

And I totally hear you on A's working like magic and you get great naps one day and not the next! At 4.5months, 2x1.5hr naps and a catnap is probably enough and he may not have been tired enough for bedtime if it was too close to the 3rd nap. I found dd3 needed 2hrs before bedtime, even on a 45min catnap! Is his morning nap the best one? You could try 1:45A before morning nap; 2hrs before 2nd nap and around the same before 3rd nap?



20/06/2012 - my angel baby