accepting overtired and what happens?

[aarden]

I've been posting struggling with naps for quite a while now. She is now 3.5 months old and getting bigger bags under her eyes upon waking every day with EW.

Do I just have to accept that she gets more tired every day, or do I resort to seeking to employ someone to carry my baby in a sling for several days to see if I can sort this?  Carrying in the sling is the only thing that will work to 're-set' her but my back wont cope with carrying her for 8.5 hours a day for several days to do this. I really wish I could but have a weak back, no time for pilates and if I injure it, my lo will get no naps!

Facts:
She is touchy and will be fine then suddenly scream if we are not in the house and something upsets her. I avoid taking her anywhere
Ssh/pat (I rub back) only gets 45 mins if lucky, I have tried everything to extend, it does not work. It has to be after milk to work.
She only sleeps 9.5 hours at night (i.e. 10 ish hours in cot with 1 night feed) thankful for this but not sure how long this last.
She wakes tired.
Early bed say 6.30pm results in being awake latest 4:30am
Naps in the sling (only the same sling) only get her truly rested if i'm in the same environment, moving at the same pace (i.e can't go to the toilet) with background noise. All else including pram gets 30-45 mins.
She is happy enough in the day and seems to cope with being tired but is clearly overtired and fussy by the end of the day. She cried during feeding now as she realises how tired she is.
She won't take a dummy, spends most of the day stuffing her fingers in her mouth but can't find her thumb.
She will suck on a fabric toy but as soon as this is taken away eyes ping open.
I think she needs 16hours sleep when not already overtired
We squeeze 14 hours a day in when all naps are in the sling, but she is still tired upon waking.
There doesn't appear to be anything bothering her requiring medication from the helpful posts on this forum. Hiccups and acid breath when really tired.

The plan is to get a treadmill, put some white noise on and aim for 3x 2 hour naps and 1x 1hr nap. To do this, I would have to get someone else to carry her.

I'm after some advice and experience from those who have had to live with an over tired baby. My first was overtired but could cope with less sleep and she would respond to some techniques, and slept 11 hrs at night, naps improved with age. I'm not sure things will with this one.

Do I do whatever possible to re-set her and risk my back and time with my 3 yr old or just live with this and hope it doesn't get worse nd live in hope???

Thanks

[Haribo2012]

Hi hugs sounds like your having a hard time, can you post your routine in EAS style so we can have a look at your day?
Are you sure no discomfort if she only settles upright? Does she have a dummy?
She sounds OT or in pain to me but I've no BTDT with reflux etc.

[Me.and.my.two.boys]

Oh no you seem to be having a hard time of it! I agree, posting your routine might help try and work something out.

(((Hugs))) for now though

[aarden]

Thanks for the offer of help but I'm just not sure we can be helped with the routine as naps are dependent on how much I can carry her in the sling and whether an ambulance comes past if we are outside or my daughter pulls the babies leg or shouts etc! Also the level of stimulation for this baby seems to affect naps more than my first lo

I was just trying to work out the likelihood of the nights going bad and days worse by not doing all naps in sling or and whether to continue with sling and take ibuprofen and visit osteopath lots.

Tired signs are difficult. It would be great if she took a dummy but doesn't.

I stopped DF as all it did was make nappies wet and she just woke up at 3.15 anyway.

With no DF I would do this if all naps in sling:

From bed time
S 8.00pm use loud white noise when OT and OS and again when wakes crying 45 mins later
E 2.30am
Wake 6.00am
E 6.30 am small to ok feed

Then she now eats 3hrs to 3hrs 15 and I would carry her aiming for 1.5hr naps and the shorter cat nap.

Lately I have been doing the first two naps in cot so first nap is 45 mins, second one 30 mins and then 3rd nap 2hours in sling, and cat nap varies. She tends to cry to sleep in the sling and when I cuddle her for all naps unless very tired.

I have tried various timings in the cot. She has now been lying in the cot not sleeping with white noise on for 1hr.  I will have to take her out soon. Her a time now is 2.5hrs

[Me.and.my.two.boys]

2.5 hours seems quite high for her age? How does she settle at bedtime and during the night?  When you say she was in her cot for one hour, was she just lying there quietly?

[aarden]

Yes 2.5 is way too long. Her A time as far as I can tell is about 1hr in the morning and up to 1.20 later on. It reduces when she has a cold. She lies sucking then cries.

She settles at night after milk, always has. We only use white noise and a hand on chest when particularly OT

GOOD NEWS!!!

The answer is arms AND legs!

I had always been holding down on the shoulders only but tried legs as well and she went back to sleep!
It took 40 mins but we got there. This is a first.

I really hope it works again, it's physically demanding as her jolts are so so strong. All I need to do now is set the new cot up at a height that works or take the side off (with sleep positioner or anti-roll swaddle)

[Haribo2012]

I used to sneak into bedroom at about 35 mins into nap put pressure on shoulder and hip or thigh just as jolt happened. Then stay there for a good 10 mins after to make sure into next sleep cycle ok.

With the OT at some point she will just crash.

Although u say we can't help sort routine etc I honestly think if you can persever with the routine with naps it makes life easier. I used to spend a lot of time shush patting in the cot at the 45 min mark until we had sorted the A times and passed the age where 45 min intruder was the nightmare of my life. :-) x

[aarden]

My problem now is that I have been lying with her to get her to sleep rather than use rub back as i have to use a sleep positioner to get to her back, and then cant hold the shoulders and legs properly (she is in a big baby woombie to help) to extend the nap when she is on her side. slipping her onto her back can wake her and is tricky. I need to think of something.

I do want a routine and to find something less back breaking than sling but didn't think i could extend naps. The nap I extended yesterday was after she:
woke 5:30am
S 10:20-10:40am pram
S 12:40-2:30pm

so very tired

Today and yesterday she was asleep by 1.20 A time, I stayed 22 mins and slipped arms off her, she didnt move for a few mins so i left, but when i went back in at 30, she was awake sucking her fingers. Did I not stay long enough or is the A time a bit short even (wouldn't have thought so)? I am trying 1.20-1.30 A time as she has only been having about 12 hours sleep lately, but does it not work like this, should I take the average A time for her age (nearly 17 weeks) so say 1.40 and stick with this?

I will feel less stressed about the naps if i knew it wouldn't make the night sleep worse.

Also I had assummed that if I could get her to the point where she looked well rested and the bags disappeared then she would start to go to sleep again independently like she did for 3 days at 2.5 months old. Perhaps as don't do enough naps in the cot, she just doesn't associate it with day sleep anymore. She is so difficult to wind down and just does not look drowsy, ever, just too tired.

[Buttonbobs]

I have to say reading this (although I haven't read any of your other posts) it does sound like either she has developed a prop of being in the sling for day sleep, or she is suffering with some sort of discomfort that won't let her sleep lying down in the daytime.

There is no guarantee that this pattern won't start to affect night sleep.

Your best bet is to aim for a more age appropriate routine and stick with it, while trying to get her into the cot for more naps. I agree with haribo that the A time is currently too long, but I'm a bit confused. You mentioned her A one as being 2.5 hours and then in your most recent post say she was up from 5.30am until 10.30am without sleep in between. Am i reading this correctly? If yes, did you try for sleep earlier and it was refused? That five hour A time would definitely be too long as you have said yourself.

I agree that starting with the average is a good move - 1hr 40 and put her in the cot like you do for night sleep keeping conditions the same. To begin with you will need to hold/pat/shh for a while. If she is jolting at 30 mins you will need to continue to do the shh/pat through the jolt and wait until she is back asleep again.
I notice you have an older child - is she at home during the day too? If so, perhaps aim for one nap in the cot per day and the rest use another method (sling/chair/rocker) to help stop her get OT.

[weaver]

ITA with Naomi and Zoe. Day sleep definitely helps night sleep, I'm afraid!

A lot of what you say reminds me of LO1: he was touchy and very sensitive to stimulation.  What worked for him was getting A times right, and being vigilant about getting him to bed (for naps) on time.  He needed a super-long wind-down, lots of snuggling to get him to relax.  We also had to hold arms and legs when holding through the jolts, and stay for ages to make sure he was asleep.  Once he was solidly asleep (say by 30 mins), he was usually set for a good long nap. Once he had learned this, we were able to reduce the time, but it was worth putting in several weeks of this, so that eventually we were able to do Gradual Withdrawal.  We rubbed/patted his shoulder rather than his back - have you tried that with your LO?  Just reach your arm across her torso and rub the arm furthest from you, it might be easier than trying to get her on her back.

Do bear in mind that 'teaching sleep', and teaching new ways of sleeping, takes a while.  Hugs for the tiredness, you must both be wrecked!

[aarden]

I found rubbing back works best. I have tried shoulder but didn't find a difference.

It's interesting that some stay asleep, even in the sling, she wakes after 45 mins, usually cries, then I have to just walk through it. Also if I sit down at any point, even between the 20-30min deeper sleep part, where she isn't wiggling, she wakes at 45m and doesn't go back to sleep.

Does night time extend for some? with my first, she was always in the cot for 12 hours, but at 6 months went from 3 feedings to sttn with 3 nights training so hers was always the same. 10 hours in cot is a pain as it means more day naps.

yes I think she needs 0 stimulation as the cot sleeps happened when i separated my children completely and basically kept the baby in her room.

[Me.and.my.two.boys]

Great advice from Naomi I was also. Little confused with your posts regarding A time

I agree that sticking to 1.40 A is best. The first few days will probably be tough but if you can reduce that A you might find she settles easier?

I used to use a sleep positioner at this age too and a woombie - I would put C down on his side but if he rolled on to his back he usually stayed asleep - most times when I went into get him from his nap he was on his back.

I'm not much use with advice about extending naps as it's something I never managed - I persevered with short naps for a few months or AP'd but for some reason I just couldn't extend.

How's today been? x

[aarden]

Sorry about the confusion, most of my posts are not well written as i am normally in the sling bouncing and walking round the dining table typing. I don't ever aim for 2.5 A time, it was a failed cot experiment, normally I aim for 1.20, perhaps less in the morning.

Well today she has been hiccuping lots, bit of spitting up and windy, shoving her fingers in her mouth even more with pink eyebrows so something is bothering her. My sister in law is visiting today also so a little busier. I have looked at reflux symptoms but she doesn't have anything more than mild symptoms occaisonly

Sleep 1 30 mins in cot
Sleep 2 45 mins in sling
Sleep 3 45 mins in cot
Sleep 3 1.5 hours in sling but didn't walk constantly so quite a bit of wiggling

Will try cot later.

Unless I can extend naps then I am stuck with the sling. I don't know if at some point sleep cycles change and they just sleep longer- ha! I am trying to find hope but don't think there is any.

[Buttonbobs]

Hi honey, so we can help you it would be great if you could post the times of the naps and the night sleep. A couple of those naps look a bit UT and some OT so it would help to see the timings. Hope you have a lovely day with your SIL.

[aarden]

Right, sat down now, sorry i start typing then can't finish
From feed previous night
E 7.00pm
S  8.30-9.15 Crying due to OT
S  9.30-5am  longest stretch yet, shame I can't sleep!
E  5.30am
S  6-7am
E. 7.30am
S 8.30-9.00 in cot
S 10-10.45 in sling. I wanted to squeeze another nap in due to short earlier nap
E 10.45
S 12.10-12.55 in cot
E 13.30 wasn't too hungry think fussing may have been wind, spitting up, hiccups
S 2.20pm- 3.50 in sling
E. 4.30
S 5.30-6pm cot, I made noise as left room and woke
Lots of rubbing eyes, fussing, quick wash and massage 6.45
E 7pm
S perhaps at 8.40 after crying

It's not nice hearing her cry since I have been doing more naps in cot! I think it also wakes an OT 3 yr old, I feel sorry for them both.

Today thrashing and shouting between waking and first nap, yawning several times when I pick her up

Cot nap didn't work again. Asleep after 1.20A time but left at 25 mins of sleep to check on 3 yr old and was awake 2 mins later. Now looking extremely tired with massive under eye bags and big hiccups which she seems to have always done when tired.

Thanks for helpful suggestions but this just isn't working. She is so tired. This baby at 8 weeks when well rested could only cope with 1hr A time in the morning.

I'm thinking I'll just have to get lots of ibuprofen and make a real effort with Pilates and stick with sling for most naps. This baby cannot go on only having around 12 hours sleep a day. I also have seen no progress in terms of ease/speed with ssh pat since trying from 4 weeks old almost every day for 1 nap (apart from the days prior to independent sleep when there were 7 hours sling naps for 2 days)

Ok thanks baby crying now so should put in sling