14 week old night wake ups

[1sttimemamma]

Hi - I'm just curious if it's normal to have a baby cry out several times a night and then put themselves to sleep. We just transitioned DS from the swing to the crib, but even before tonight, he would wake and cry and then go back to sleep. Tonight it was 3 hours after he fell asleep and it will probably happen a couple more times. 

Is it a sign of over tiredness? Or just because babies do weird things?

[Layla]

Hello

Some babies will cry out in between sleep cycles so I would like to think its normal...but it could also be a sign of over tiredness, especially if he cries out in the first part of the night (like 1-2hrs after being put to bed). Does he need your help to get back to sleep? How is he during the day? How are his naps? Did you want to post your EAS for us to look at?

 

[1sttimemamma]

Hi! This is his first night in the crib. Always the swing before tonight.
So far, this is what's happened: Sleep at 6:45pm (after about 20 min of shh/pat and 2 pu/pd
Woke at 7:20pm - needed shh/pat
Cried at 10:20pm - didn't need me
cried at 12:30am - didn't need me
cried at 1:40am - did shh/pat and 3 pu/pd and back to sleep at 2:05am (That was a hard one)

I generally feed him around 4am - so I am waiting for him to get a big closer to that?? Although I don't know how this works yet for him.

Our EAS today was
E - 3am
Wake - 7:40am (he woke at 6:30am and I left him alone and he fell back asleep around 7am)
E 7:45 and 8:20 (had to take brother to school)
Nap - 9:25am to 10:30am - cry - back to sleep until 10:50am
E 11am
Nap 12:20 to 1:16pm - cry - back to sleep until 1:45pm
E 2pm
E 4pm  ------ we had to all go to a store and I thought he'd nap in the Ergo, but he didn't
N 4:30 to 5:15pm
E - 5:20 and several more times during bedtime
BT 6:45pm

[1sttimemamma]

After the 1:40am wake up, he woke at 3:20am and I fed him. Then he cried around 5:30 but I didn't go in his room. He woke a little before 7am for the day.
Are all these cries normal?

[Sarah - Enfys' Mum]

For his first night in the crib, that looks pretty good!

[Layla]

I agree  ! If it were me, I would have fed him at the 1:40am wake up.... are you holding off until 4am for any particular reason? My rule of thumb for night feeds were to follow the daytime routine, for example, if mine was feeding every 4hrs during the day and if she was up anywhere from 4hrs onward at night, I would have fed...and perhaps this is why it was harder to settle at this wake up... he may have been genuinely hungry .

Anyway, when you say he cries, it is a full blown cry and for a long time or is it a brief cry/call out and he then puts himself back to sleep? Again, I think its normal for them to make noises/some cry between sleep cycles.

[1sttimemamma]

He has been able to go till around 4am until he needs to eat, so that's why I held off at the 1:40am wake up. I debated on it, but once I started I felt I should stick with it. Should I base my feeding times on what has been the norm?

His cries are brief cry out - at one point I started to get out of bed and go in his room, but he stopped.

Which leads me to another question - how much crying do you listen to before you help? The type of cry is important, but just curious if I should be giving him a little time to settle on his own. It seems I make things a little harder for him when I help.

[Layla]

I used to always wait and listen and if it was a mantra cry, I wouldn't intervene because I would also make things harder . I always waited a little (like a couple of minutes) and if the cry would escalate to "I need you" cry, I would go and shh/pat or feed if it was time to.

With regards to feeding, even though he's been able to sleep before till 4am, I wouldn't take that as gospel that he'll be able to do it from here on.. especially if he had done it when he was younger and bedtime was later perhaps? I don't know... the daytime/night time feeds (applying the same hour rule at night) worked well for me and actually dd3 was able to do 12hr stretches from 4months on but just because she did it one night, didn't mean she wouldn't wake the next and I always fed if she was up from 4hrs onward. Sometime around 6 months she started to drop the 1st feed (the 11ish pm feed) on her own (again, if she would wake for that feed, I would feed but she started waking for it less and less) and then she started to drop the early morning feed on her own around 8 months until at 9 months or so she slept through all night.

Also there is a big GS around the 4month mark where he may want more feeds at night and often this is around the time when babies start to make the transition to 4hr EASY... although we weren't quiet able to make it to 4hrs between feeds because mine was BF but we did get to 3.5hrs
 
Sounds like he's doing really well hun... well done!!! 

[1sttimemamma]

Thanks! I'm pretty excited that we are doing somewhat ok in the crib.
I just fear that I'm going to lead to habits of night waking for food, so that's why I think about holding off. so if he goes to sleep at 7pm, if he woke at 11pm, I would feed if he woke and was crying? I guess that if he wakes and cries like he did at the 1:30am time and needs help, it would be safe to assume he needs food??
I'm still confused on the process on how I settle him. I read in the freq asked questions page about the advice Tracy gave to somebody with a 3 month old and they did PU/PD from the start - not shh/pat. It was written to pu and then pd right away. I guess I've been trying shh/pat and unless he gets hysterical, I don't pick him up. However, it seemed to get him calmer last night when I did have to pick him up. I just worry I'm waiting too long and making him cry too long in his crib as I'm trying shh/pat.

[1sttimemamma]

It's been an awful night. He didn't take his last nap - refused and cried. So that means he was awake since 3:10pm. I put him in bed at around 6:15pm and he pretty much passed out until 6:45pm. Then he fussed off and on and cried out but would go back to sleep until my husband finally went into his room around 7:30ish ( because he was screaming) and then he fell asleep (after sh/pat and pu/pd)
then he woke at 9:45pm - at which time I fed him. The reason I fed him was because he refused to eat at bedtime - just got upset when I tried. So the last time he had a normal feeding was around 5:15pm.
He slept from that feeding until 12:20am. At which point I would go in his room and shh/pat and maybe pu/pd two times. Then he'd fall asleep, only to wake up 5 to 10 min later and cry again. The crying escalated and nothing would settle him. Shh/pat was doing nothing. I would pu/pd and he'd get calmer and I'd lay him down and he'd scream, so I would pick him up again and start over. Sometimes he'd fall asleep for 5 minutes, but then wake back up screaming. This lasted until 2:10am or so. I gave him gripe water, because I started to feel like he was uncomfortable. And once during the pick up he farted a few times, but he didn't get calm after the farts. So, I gave him gripe water and he eventually passed out in his crib. I sat in his room for maybe 10 min and he was asleep - I went back to bed, and he woke again. Since this was around 2:15am or so, I fed him again.

The thing that I probably messed up on was his swaddle situation. Last night and his last nap today, he was kicking his feet so hard, he kicked them out of the swaddle. He uses one of those velcro ones, so his feet weren't in that little pouch at the bottom. He would also get sweaty because I double swaddle him. So I decided to use a sleeping bag thing and also this arm swaddle thing that we use off and on - but haven't used it for weeks. After his 2:15am feeding, I reswaddled him in the original swaddle and he just went to bed wide awake and I can hear him occasionally  , but he's not screaming.

My other thought is that his belly was uncomfortable. I did have tomato sauce last night and I ate the left overs two times today. I've always wondered if tomato sauce hurts his belly and I'm thinking it does.

I can't understand why he would fall asleep and then wake back u;p after 5 minutes.

Also, how precise and consistent do you need to be with the shh/pat and pu/pd? I would sometimes hold him longer in the pu stage, but never longer than 2 minutes or so.

I'm so discouraged and really thought about putting him back in the swing - but I didn't and I really don't want to.

Any thoughts?

[Layla]

big hugs hun...i just need to get the girls ready for school and drop them off and will come back in about an hour and a bit with some thoughts 

[Layla]

He would have been overtired by bedtime because of that last nap he missed and when they get overtired, they can have a rough time transitioning between sleep cycles, they tend to wake up more and take a long time to settle. So I think that might have been the case as 3 hrs for a 14wo is quiet a long time to be awake for. You're right in that some foods can cause them discomfort so maybe try and stay away from the foods you "think" might be causing him discomfort.

With regards to the last nap/catnap, what were the other 2 naps like? I remember there was a time when I had to limit dd's 1st and 2nd nap to just 1.5hrs so that there was enough "drive" for her to take the catnap. Oh and don't be afraid to AP the catnap... this nap will be the first to disappear and most mums (myself included) do this nap in the stroller/baby carrier/arms/swing... I did the last nap mostly in the baby carrier/sling just to give her and I a little break from the shh/patting and to be able to get things done! If he does happen to miss this nap again, I would be tempted to put him to bed even earlier, maybe even 5.30pm (I've done bedtime as early as 5pm!) to avoid him from getting too overtired by bedtime.

With regards to shh/pat vs pu/pd. I did mostly shh/pat (and still do if need be) as pu/pd would get mine more wired up. If she was really really upset, I would do a quick pu to calm her and then put down. Do you feel like he would sleep better without a swaddle? We didn't swaddle dd as she liked her freedom too much and around 3 months, she started to have better control of her hands. I did and still do have her in a gro bag. When I did shh/pat, you can modify it to what you think suits your baby - for example, some babies don't like the patting, some babies don't like the shushing... I kept mine on her back and patted her thigh and shushed. With all that shh/patting, she eventually found her thumb and learned to self soothe. For naps, I had a pretty strict wind down routine - change nappy/put white noise on and sway to one of the songs on the machine whilst rubbing her back in circular motion, then start patting her bottom and shushing and then in the cot. I would then leave and see what she would do... if she started crying and it was a mantra cry, I would leave her. If she would cry and need me, I would go back and start shh/pat. Some start shh/pat as soon as they place the baby in the cot. I used to give it 20mins of shh/patting (for naps only) and if she wasn't asleep by then, I used to get her out and give her a little more A and as soon as we'd get tired signs, I would try again. If E was due, I would do E and then try again for a nap. If she was getting really upset, I would pick her up, a cuddle or walk around and rub her back and shushhhh and then back in the cot.

It's important to remember that you're still in the early days of sleep training, if he used to be in the swing for all naps and at night and there is expected to be some regression too. Try to stay away from going back old habits (except for that catnap I mentioned before ) and with time (it took us about 2 weeks) he will learn to self soothe.

Night feeds - yes, if mine had her last feed at 7 and then woke at 11, I would have fed. For me, sleeping through meant anything more than 4hrs and usually babies start to do 4-6hr stretch in the first part of the night and then they wake sometime towards the morning and then go back to sleep for another hour or 2 before they wake for the day.

[1sttimemamma]

Thank you Layla! So nice of you to respond, I really appreciate it. His naps yesterday were longer than todays - he took an 1 1/2 nap in the morning. Then he took a nap of 1 hour and 10 min and then a 40 min nap (awake at 3:10pm). Today were terrible - a 45 min nap, a 30 min nap, a 50 min nap and a 30 min nap. The last one he woke at 4:10pm.
So tonight I'm going for a 6pm bedtime.

Yes, he may like not having the swaddle on, but I'm afraid to try it because his hands are still kind of flailing around. He does love sucking on his hands though. Do I just try it? I didn't want to put him in the crib and then add no swaddle to the mix.

So, that big two hour fuss/crying fest last night started less than 3 hours after I last fed him. I guess I could have fed him again, but I really don't want to get into a habit. We have had only one feed for so long.

He naps fine during the day (as far as not needing shh/pat) - we don't need to help him at all, just looks around and goes to sleep. The nighttime is the hardest. I'm not looking forward to tonight. My older son woke up during everything last night and nobody has really slept.

[Layla]

have you heard of the aussie swaddle? here's a link ...you might like to try it so that he still has access to his fingers/hands Swaddling Technique (aka "Aussie swaddle")

Edit to add - probably not a good idea to get rid of it altogether... like you said, you don't want to make too many changes at once but you could try swaddling with one arm out or the aussie swaddle.

I have my fingers crossed for you for a good night. Make sure you go to bed nice and early (if possible) too 

[1sttimemamma]

Well I put him to bed at 5:55pm - he was pretty tired and had a good feeding. He's up at 6:15pm crying, so I'm totally lost on what is going on.

[Layla]

just checking how the rest of your night went...

[1sttimemamma]

HI! it went so much better. I only had to go in at the first cry and pat him and he fell right to sleep. He cried out at around 8 and 10pm, but went back to sleep on his own. At 2am he was sort of fussing and I went in and fed him. He cried at 4am and needed 2 pu/pd and then rubbed his belly and he went back to sleep. It's still only 4:30am here, but SOOOO much better than the night before.

The thing was before bed he finally pooped. I think his belly was bothering him last night. I probably should just start doing gripe water before bed no matter what.

[1sttimemamma]

Also - he went to bed last night at 6pm. He slept until 7:30am.

What time would he go to bed tonight? I guess it would depend on naps. If he has short ones, aim for earlier bedtime right ?

[Layla]

Great update . I would look at how your day went and base bedtime on what time he woke from his last nap...Gripe water is a good idea and I remember pressing dd's legs towards her tummy to get rid of gas!

[1sttimemamma]

Ok - so the small cries are still happening and I'm just wondering if it's normal. For the last two nights, he's cried 20 minutes after falling asleep at bedtime. Then he cries out two hours later and then usually another 2 hours after that one. They are minor and he puts himself back to sleep and I don't have to go into his room. I'm just curious why he's doing it.

He took his last nap and I woke him at 5:20pm - he was on his way to a long nap, but I didn't want to mess up bedtime. Before that last nap, he was taking short naps each time - 40 minute ones all day long. But that's generally how he does naps.

[Layla]

Hmmm, maybe he's a little overtired from the short naps... how is he when he wakes from his nap? Does he seem to need more sleep or are you able to resettle him for another 40-45mins? I must say though, short naps can be developmental too and we struggled with them until we dropped the 3rd nap, around 5 months. How long is he awake for during the day?

[1sttimemamma]

He isn't usually happy when he wakes, but quickly gets happy and is fine. He was a little grumbly yesterday afternoon. He's a pretty happy baby for the most part when he's awake.
I have tried to get him to go back to sleep - but it's usually unsuccessful.
Do you mean awake times? He's generally awake about 1 hr 30 min - but then sometimes he takes 10 to 20 minutes to fall asleep after that.

Also - how do you handle early morning wakings? He went to sleep around 7:15pm last night and woke at 6:15am. At first he sort of cried out , but later changed to chatting happily. I debated going in and feeding him, but honestly, I was too tired so I laid and listened to him. He's been in there an hour at this point and not falling asleep.

[Layla]

I see you've updated your avatar...what a gorgeous little munchkin you have

The early morning wake ups (which for us were anything before 6am),I used to feed and back to bed but I remember sometimes back to bed didn't give us extra zzzz so I would,d just leave her in the cot until I was ready to start the day. Some people start counting A from time they get the baby upon they count the A as 1/2 time before they get the baby up and some count from when they hear the baby wake up. Still, 11hr night is pretty good hun and I think for him that may just be when he's ready to start the day! If you had him do 12-13 hr nights but with lots of night wakings and 11hr night with fewer, I would prefer the 6am start, if you know what I mean.

I wonder if maybe him taking 10-20 mins to fall asleep and then sleeping a short time means he's ready for a little more A time? You could try an extra 10 mins to see if it helps him sleep longer?

How did last night go for you?

[1sttimemamma]

Last night was terrible. He had a bad nap day and was obviously overtired. We had to go out for brunch and it just messed up the whole day. He had a morning nap of 30 minutes and that was 2 + hours after waking up. Then we went downtown where we was awake for 2 + hours again and fell asleep for about 10 minutes on the way home but woke up when I pulled him out of the car. I tried to feed him and put him back down, but he was wide awake. I tried in again in an hour and he slept 45 min and I tried to get more out of him and I got 20 more minutes (but not consecutively). After that he did an afternoon nap from about 4:15 to 4:30pm and then he slept another 15 minutes and was waaaaayyy overtired. I put him down at 6:10ish and he woke 20 minutes later and needed me to shh/pat him back to sleep. Then he woke 2 hours later and then 2 hours after that - and then he cried out every HOUR. At midnight, I fed him and gave him gripe water, but he still cried out every hour. He didn't need me to help him, but still. I fed him again just now (5:30am) and I'm hoping he falls back asleep.

I feel I'm never going to be able to fix his daytime naps, so we will always have bad nights. You know?

[1sttimemamma]

Oh and thanks - he is a cutie!!

[1sttimemamma]

We started prilosec two days ago hoping that would help if he were in pain. Last night was fantastic - slept all night without crying out randomly. Now tonight, he's back at it, crying before sleeping, then waking 30 minutes later and crying.


He may not need me to help him when he cries out because it's 30 seconds or less and I don't even go into his room, but it's getting hard.

Is this a "sleep regression"? I'm so confused.

[1sttimemamma]

And it got much much worse...he basically cried off and on for 3 hours - sometimes sleeping for 5 min and waking up. I fed him at 11:30pm and he slept until 3:00 at which point I fed him again.

When I put him to bed he seemed really really awake. He had been awake almost 2 hours before bedtime. Could that be it? The only other thing was he took a 2 hour nap (with some crying breaks in between) yesterday morning - waking at around 10:45ish.

[Layla]

Usually waking up first part of night (before midnight) for us was overtired wakings but if he cried on and off for 3 hrs maybe he was in pain/discomfort? Did he have just a short nap before bedtime and then awake for 2hrs?

I am not too sure what prilozec is used for.. do you think it may be making things worse?

Also, the effects of overtired ness can carry on for a couple of days.

[1sttimemamma]

Yes it was a short nap before bed - but he always has a short nap. If he takes a 30 min nap and wakes at 5pm (for example) what time would you put him down?
Prilosec is for reflux - but I'm not sure that's what he has. I think I'm stopping the medicine as of tomorrow.

[Layla]

I would probably put him down at 6.30 if he woke at 5pm