When they're awake for ages but not unhappy?

[KookyK]

I could write lots of other threads about my DS's sleep issues (short naps, NWS and EWs) and I'm doing what I can from BW for those. One thing that flummoxes me is when he's wide awake and buckarooing in his cot for perhaps an hour at a time. Esp when its 4 am as he tends to get up around 5/5.30 for the day so this is problematic. He's not upset but v v awake. I don't pick him up I play white noise which can work (rarely at 4am tho). He's swaddled and I wonder if he's trying to breakout and its keeping him busy and awake?!

He's 6.5 months old.

What do you do when they're awake for ages but not unhappy but you know they need to sleep?

[*Ali*]

Can you post his routine in EAS format? E.g.
E 7.00
Solids 8.00
A 2.5hrs
S 9.30 (2hrs) etc.

My first thought is that he is UT from too much day sleep but it is difficult to say without knowing what his day looks like. It could be the complete opposite and he is restless due to OT.

Tracy advised if he is awake and happy you don't need to do anything at the NW. Don't go in, don't put on white noise. Just leave him to it and he will hopefully go back to sleep eventually. Only go to him if he gets upset and starts crying for  you.

You could try leaving one arm out the swaddle if you think he is ready.

[KookyK]

Days are always pretty pants. That's a whole other problem! He's always woken around 4 and again at 5-5.30 and now starts the day then.

His EASY is sort of like this

A 5.30
S 8.30 usually on school run in carseat so unforch usually wakes when we get in at 9-9.15
S 11 or 11.30 I try to extend this in the cot so sometimes its til 1, sometimes 12.30
S usually falls asleep at some point on school run 2.30 or 3. In carseat.often wakes hen we get home around 3.20-3.40.
Bed 6.30 usually wakes crying after 40 mins resettled with white noise and hand in shoulder.
Night wakings/feeds had been 2 of them. Past week waking 2 hourly but I'm holding out and only picking up and feeding twice (10 and 2).

I had been letting him fall asleep in my arms but have sorted that. He has a dummy. Would like to wean as worry about it being a prop. White noise might be a prop I don't know. He's next to me in cot.

[*Ali*]

So I'd have to say OT since he has quite a long day and doesn't get 2 long naps in and most of his A times are on the long side even after a short nap in the afternoon.

Would you consider doing an earlier BT around 6 or even 5.30pm?

Have you tried resettling him when he wakes from the first nap on the school run rather than keeping him up another couple of hours? He is probably OT from that wake up onwards. Or any chance of keeping him awake on the school run and putting him down in the cot when you get home? If you could get him on 2 long naps you could do away with the third nap and make his day shorter thus giving him less total A time. Also have a look at the 3-2 nap transition sticky which has more info on dropping the third nap. All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

You could definitely try weaning the dummy if you think he has become dependent on that. Does he have a blankie/lovey he could hold and suck if he wanted to? How do you feel about weaning the swaddle? I wouldn't worry about the white noise as you can just leave that playing for the whole nap. Do you? White noise really helped my Ds2 and he didn't even notice when I weaned it cold turkey when he moved into his brother's room at 15mo.

The other option is wake to sleep about 3am.

What do you think?

[KookyK]

I do leave white noise on the whole nap but its having to play it at times in the night I like less as I don't like hearing it and he sleeps in my room!

I'd Love to keep him awake til after the school run it'd be the ideal solution but he's so miserable and tired I can't at the moment but it cd happen If his awake times extend or be starts to get up later. I have tried to extend him in the carseat but perhaps I shd transfer him to bed and see if I can resettle him .

I'm nervous to put him to bed earlier in case he's up earlier but I shd give it a try. That's something I could defo do .

He has a lovey but he's not too interested but it cd be handy when he's out of ye swaddle. He napped usual
Short naps with 1 arm out it today and thrashed a bit but not too bad so ill keep doing this at naps then try nights.

Thanks so much for your thoughts!

[*Ali*]

Do you just get him up at 5/5.30am or do you spend time trying to resettle him? Is he hungry then? Would he feed and go back to sleep with a bit of persistence do you think?

[KookyK]

On another thread someone suggested I always make a big thing of 'morning' and pick my time as to when I do that. So lights don't go on til 6am. I try to resettle him before that and due to his need on school days to sleep longer I even use AP to get him back to sleep (jiggling , rocking, feeding etc). If he does fall asleep (rare) sometimes I pop him in bed next to me to keep him asleep. He isn't really that hungry at this time prob cos of two night feeds.

Last night was a bit better. He actually had a 4th short nap as we were due to go to a restaurant with him at 6pm however when I woke him from the 4.45-5,30 nap he was so cranky we stayed in and had takeaway! He went to sleep at 7.30 due to extra nap. Usual feeds 11 and 3. I'm not sure he woke in between. He woke at 5 but I resettled him with cuddles and white noise (offered feed but didn't want) and dummy.

[*Ali*]

Ok yes I was going to suggest keeping it dark and quiet and trying to resettle until your chosen time to start the day but seems like you are already doing that.

Is his room dal or could the sun be waking him?

It's stich a lain you can't keep him up for the school run as the only thing that seemed to help my ds2 with early rising was pushing that first nap really late and skidding his other naps and bt later.

[KookyK]

Yes it's nice and dark he's in my room. We are wondering if I'm
Disturbing him eg he sometimes wakes when I turn over.

Today he had a good day but has struggled to get to sleep at bedtime wondering if UT as he's used to a short night time and short naps. Not sure what this will do to the night.

Today
A 6am
S 8.40-10.15 (resettled half way)
S 12.20-1 (this was not intended he was in car on way to a party for DD)
S 2.45-4 (partly in carseat then transferred and resettled - thinking of trying transferring him post school run as usually either went for a drive or tried to rock him in carseat unsuccessfully)
Bed 7 but only went to sleep 7.45

One arm out of swaddle not going too badly. This is good as he is doing well going off to sleep from awake but needs his dummy replugging q a bit so I'd prefer him to get his hands back to help self soothe

[*Ali*]

Did you have a look at the 3-2 nap transition sticky I posted above? I definitely think he only needs 2 long naps. You are probably right he was likely UT from the total nap sleep.

[KookyK]

Thanks Ali youve been so full of good advice! Have briefly
Looked at the 3-2 nap info but as his naps are usually so short I hadn't committed it to memory. Off to reread!

[KookyK]

The trouble with the 2 naps a day schedule is at least one clashes with the school run (45 mins in car). Not so bad if he starts the nap in the carseat and I try to transfer ( worked yday) but if he's asleep at say 1.30 and I have to go out to pick DD at 2.30 its tricky. Wonder what others do.

Last night was terrible. Loads of NWs and awake for the day around 5.15. He did 2 poos between 5.15-6am so no chance of resettling him. He's eating loads (BLW) as he's just been let loose on food! Am sooo tired today

[*Ali*]

Have you tried music, toys or snacks on that first school run to keep him awake? It would be so much easier if you could get that first nap pushed back to 9.15-10.11.15am and then that second nap could start on the school run in the afternoon.

Otherwise yes you might needs to stick with 3 naps a bit longer and make do for now. You could try to get one long nap in the middle of the day and two CNs on the school runs. So naps would be something like 8.30-9am, 11-12.30 and the 2.30-3pm (or whatever he does in that last school run. You might need to wake him up when you get in to avoid getting too much day sleep. If he sleeps longer for that second nap you might need to put him down for a CN when you get home if he hasn't slept on the last school run.

[KookyK]

Yes I'll experiment with those times. DD used to do more like that second option when small.

[KookyK]

Defo going to bed early is better for him. He went to bed 6.15 yday and fell asleep 6.30 and had a more usual night (not great but better than recently) - bit unsettled in 1st hour, woke 9.30, 1.30 and 5 resettled to 5.50. He wanted milk at 9.30 but had v little at 1.30. Quite wakeful around 1.30 but eventually got the message.

I tbink the long nap in middle of the day would work better for us as I think about it. I will aim at that!

[*Ali*]

Good luck!

[KookyK]

Last night was a bad one and DS was awake on and off 4.30-6am tho he was asleep at times. I left him with his white noise and popped his dummy in once or twice.

He also woke 10,1, 3.

Yday looked like this

A 5.55
S 9-9.30
S 11-12.50
S 2.40-3.20
Bed 6.30

[*Ali*]

Perhaps it's the dummy he is waking for?

[KookyK]

Yes I think I need to work towards getting rid of the dummy. Thinking if I get him used to no swaddle I can see if he can learn to put in his dummy/suck his hand/hold his comforter.

Last night was a shocker!

Bed 6.30
On/off crying 7.30-8
A 9,15. As I feed around 10 I decided to feed. He was a bit unsettled but went back off
A 1 I dummied him to extend to 2 and fed him
A 4.10-5.40 tried everything. He wasnt esp hungry. Left him for an hour dummying occasionally until he start to shout and cry. Then put him in bed next to me and after 10 mins he fell asleep
Up at 6.50

[KookyK]

Last night was a bit better.

Ydays EASY was

A 6.45
S 9.45-10.20
S 12.40-1.50
S 4.30-5.10
Bed 6.45 sleep around 7.00

He struggled to get to sleep maybe late nap but persisted with shh pat.

Usual on/off wakes around 40-60 mins after going to sleep. Then usual feeds 9.30 and 1.30. Woke 4 and tried white noise and dummy. 4.30 I gave in to some AP and offered a little milk and cuddle and he went back to sleep until 5.45 in his cot.

He spent the whole night with 1 arm out f the swaddle. I thought it was so bad ATM that it couldn't make it any worse.

[*Ali*]

Is he crying when he wakes at 4ish? If not then I would just leave him to entertain himself until he goes back to sleep or cries for the dummy.

I ink you're right that he was UT at BT because if the longer, late nap and also the later morning WU. I probably would have woken him at 5pm from the nap and then shot for a 7pm BT.

Things might get worse with the weaning of the swaddle but I agree it is probably best to wean that and then see how he does with repluging the dummy.

[KookyK]

He starts out shouting out and weak crying and shuffling around and just being quite wakeful. It turns to crying after around 40+ minutes but thus far has never resulted in him falling bak asleep by himself!

[*Ali*]

Press ahead with the swaddle weaning then I guess

[KookyK]

Still only one arm out of the swaddle.

Have had some awful nights the past week but also two days with later starts - 6.10 and 6.20. Have managed to keep him awake most or all of school run in morning and transfer him and resettle him
Midway thru that nap and manage a second nap around 1-2.30. It's a bit of a long stretch to bed at 6.30 but he's managed it. However the day that he had three short naps (due to docs appt am and DDs ballet class pm) he actually slept best.

Today he has started to nap in his own room. I want him to get used to his own room in case in disturbing him or tempting him with milk!!!

Yday went like this

A 6.20
S 9.10-10.45
S 2.15-3.45
Bed 7

Woke and had small feeds at around 11 and 2.
V awake at 4.10. Ignored it/hand on tummy with white noise and tried to contain his waggling arm for about 30 mins then picked him up to try to help him with cuddles and offer of milk (AP I know) he dozed off for maybe 10-20mins and I did a further 30 mins of hand on tummy and trying to contain his crazy arm. Then gave up about 5.40.

Today
S 8-8.45
S 1.30-2.30
About to try a catnap but not sure ill succeed.

I'm knackered! So many 3/4am wakeful patches.

[KookyK]

No catnap yday so he had about 1.5 hours sleep all day . Just remembered he did have a brief extra nap on a buggy walk mid morning so more like 2 hrs.

Terrible night unsurprisingly.

Bed at 6.45
Usual wake up on/off at 7.30 for about 15 mins shh/pat replace dummy couple of times

Then -
A 9.30 (dummyx2)
A 11.30 (fed)
A 12.30 shh pat for ages kept spitting out dummy. Gave calpol in case teeth
A 3.30 shh pat/white noise/gave dummy
A 4.30 as before
A 5.15 cuddled and tried to jiggle him to see if I cd get him to sleep anymore he dozed off for about 10 mins but woke soon after being put down.

I feel like I've had no sleep. Losing the will to live!! I've got to sort this out - back to work in just under three months.

Reason for ydays short nap was I left OH in charge of DS whilst he napped so I cd go and nap in another room. OH has never managed to resettle DS during a nap and said he woke cheerful and v awake looking after 35 mins.

[*Ali*]

Do you the it is time to let the other arm out? Maybe he would be happier finding his own sleeping position? When I weaned the swaddle at 8mo my DS2 was much happier being able to roll onto his side. I still put him down on his back as per SIDS recommendations but let him roll over if he wanted to. That solved the waggling arm problem.

[Sarah - Enfys' Mum]

I was kind of thinking the same thing actually. Maybe if he could roll himself into a different sleeping position he'd be happier.

[KookyK]

Yes you could be right. HE also sleeps on a large pillow thing called a toddlepod which I think I need to get rid of as it keeps him more on his back. The time I tried tho he was trying so hard to move all round the cot in his swaddle he was awake half the night. But I do think he needs to move on from the swaddle and the toddlepod.

Last night was relatively better. He had a late nap which seems to improve things. Yday he had 4 short naps, the last 5-5.20. Bed at 7 and sleep at 7.20. Night was:

Bed 7.20 calpol in case teething. One arm out of swaddle
Wake 12.45 and fed
Wake 3.00  Both arms escaped swaddle. Resettled with my arm on his tummy for about 30 mins. ADded white noise and kept trying to contain his arms. After a while reswaddled and offered milk and he had a small bit.
On/off waking for the next few hours. Both arms escaped swaddle again. White noise going all the while.
5.30am Reswaddled both arms and he took a big feed both sides. Slept til 6.35am

Today so far
1 great long nap! 9.45-11.15
Went down for this nap 14.30.

So no late nap today, it wont' work. Interesting to compare the nights now...

[*Ali*]

Good luck with the wean

[KookyK]

So last night was bad despite the perfect EASY in the day. started well as he went off to sleep like a dream but had two really long wakeful patches around 1am and 3am (as well as a wake at 11am) and a 5.55 start.

Today - arms not in swaddle and not in his toddlepod. Nap was only 45 mins. He was still sleepy and I got him back off to sleep with some AP but after 10 mins he woke again and his arms were so crazy I struggled to hold them and he just woke himself up too much.  So he's had a carseat nap of 45 mins and a unswaddled bed nap of 45 mins. Seems a bit tired and grumpy so I've no idea what next.

Should I keep the arms out and no toddlepod for the night?! EEk scared to.

[*Ali*]

Id probably go for it now you've started.

[Sarah - Enfys' Mum]

Yes!  Go for it. It will be tough but you'll be surprised, in a day or two he'll be much better. 

I dreaded weaning dd1 - kept delaying and thinking of excuses - around seven months I just couldn't fit her in the miracle blanket anymore. I think it took her an hour for her to fall asleep the first night ( she was a shocking napper so I started at night) and after that, it was fine.  With dd2, I weaned her at three months. Started one Sunday morning. Naps that day were terrible. Night was okay. Second day naps were fair, and the second night was probably the best night sleep she ever had.