almost 5m NW every 2 hrs for 3wks

[larren]

Angel DD's nights have been wonky and it seems to have started shortly after beginning to ST. I started shh/pat (actually shh/rock in a rock and play sleeper) at 14wks, trouble started at 18wks, going on for 3wks, and she is currently 21wks/almost 5 months. I’m wondering if I can get help to stop her NW every 1.75, 2, or 2.5 hrs throughout the night, every night.

When she sleeps in, I cap it at 9am, but our day usually starts at 8am. Her naps lengths are pretty textbook; 2 2hr naps, and 1 45m catnap, and are usually capped also. In the beginning, I would allow her to nap up to 2.5 hrs and cap but now I cap at 2hrs. Depending on the time she WU and her nap lengths, she sometimes skips the CN and does an EBT (usually around 2.5 A time).

Because trouble started around her 4m mark, IDK if it’s due to a GS but since it has been 3wks, I’m not sure. Other possible causes might be too much daytime sleep, needing 3-2 transition, or she is outgrowing her RNP (she was 16 lbs at her 4m checkup). I'm also not sure about making the 3-2 transition because she seems to have trouble staying up (that or she fusses because I'm boring her lol). DD is EBF and I do not plan to start solids until 6m.

- Yesterday/last night EASY -
WU 7:45
E 820
A 745-941/1h 56m
E 931
S 941-1154/2h 13m
E 1159
A 1154-209/2h 15m
E 118
S 209-348/1h 38m
E 359
A 348-539/1h 51m
E 532
S 539-627/48m
E 715
E 738
S/BT 756
E 1049
E 123
NW 320 – tried for 40m to soothe her back to sleep without feeding her, ended up feeding her at 403
E 403
WU 8

Please help!

[Layla]

Hi there,

I also think she may be sleeping a little too much during the day and I would probably look at capping those 2x2hr naps to 2x1.5hr naps. It would be pretty hard for her to sleep 12hrs at night as well as 4.45hrs during the day... if you know what I mean. I would also look at waking her up fairly consistently at 8am just to set her little internal clock. Some go +/-30mins but I liked to start the day around about the same time so that naps would fit in around the same time, etc...

So if you don't think she's ready to give up the catnap, you could aim for something like this:
8am - wake
9.30-11 - morning nap
1.30-3 - afternoon nap
5.30-6 - catnap
8ish - bedtime

What do you think?

[larren]

Thank you so much for your reponse!

I would also cap the catnap from 45m to 30m? Both of her naps today happened to be 1hr 45m so I will cap her CN at 30m..hopefully I'll experience relief tonight!

Does the interval of her NW have any significance? I think it's odd that they are at the same intervals as her daytime naps; 1h 45m, 2h, 2.5hrs...like her days and nights all blend into one routine (except without A time, of course)

[Layla]

Catnap can be up to 45mins so no need to wake her from that nap but as you start to transition to 2 naps, you could look at shortening it to 30 mins. See how you go tonight with less daytime sleep, hopefully that is all it is!

I am not sure why the intervals are the same as daytime naps... I haven't personally experienced that so not sure!

Let me know how you go

[larren]

The rest of our night was definitely better; she slept longer stretches, for sure! THANK YOU, THANK YOU!  She did have some NW that weren't hunger-related, which she didn't used to have. Could she just be adjusting to her new routine?

BT 730
NW 851
E 1151
E 430
NW 517

WU 8
S 946-1054/1h 7m
   she WU about an hour in and wouldn't go back to sleep after 20m of shh/rock so we went on with our day
S 100-238/1h 37m
   fussed at 156/55m but self-soothed. She naturally awoke from this nap
S 435-524/48m

If her first nap is short, like it was today, would it be okay to lengthen the second nap to make up for lost sleep or would it be best to cap at 1.5 to help internal clocks?

[Layla]

Great update! I suspect the morning nap was short because she might have been a little under tired...I am so sorry but that schedule I noted before was meant to have 7am wake up since the Av A for her age is about 2.5 hrs but some babies prefer shorter morning awake time so you could keep it at 2 hrs and the rest of the day leave it at 2.5. I would probably not let her sleep more than 2 hrs in the afternoon if the morning nap was short.

Let me know how tonight goes for you

[larren]

The rest of last night and today went like this:
BT 734
    2h 10m A time
NW 832 rocked
NW 926 rocked
E 109
E 441
E 719

WU 835
S 1044-1218/1h 33m
    2h 8m A time
S 216-327/1h 10m
    2h A time
S 524-607/43m
    1h 57m A time
BT 745

I capped the first nap. The second nap she awoke from, either naturally or from the kids outside, but she wasn't crying so i waited until she fussed to come in because I was hoping she would soothe herself back to sleep but she didn't. She awoke from her catnap screaming.

I'm worried that DD isn't showing signs of being able to sustain a longer A time..she gets really fussy before even the 2hr mark..I don't know how we'll even make it to 2.5! She is also difficult to put down..I used to be able to place her in bed after our WD and she'd fall asleep on her own, but today, she needed to be shh/rocked. Could she be OT from being used to 2hr naps and 1h 45m A times?

If I wanted to move DD's day to start at 8am, and assuming she would keep 2.5 A times, it would look something like this, right?
WU 8
S 10-1130
S 2-330
S 6-645
BT ?

I wasn't sure what time BT should be LOL

[Layla]

You could probably do bedtime 2hrs later since the 3rd nap is shorter than others, although some babies (mine included) could do full A on a 45min nap.

How did her night go? If you're not comfortable waking her up from her naps and feel she's getting overtired then take a step back and follow her lead. I am not sure though she'll be able to sleep 2x2hr naps and a catnap as well as 12hr night, which is why I suggested shorter nap lengths

[larren]

you're absolutely right about her needing shorter naps! I just don't know how to do that without giving her too much A time, making her OT

here is our yesterday and today
WU 827
S 1026-1208/1h 41m
   (1h 58m A time) I capped this nap, I don't know why I cheated her of a few minutes though
S 214-251/37m
   (2h 6m A time) DS was being rowdy and WU DD..I attempted to put her back to sleep for 20m but was not successful
S 429-541/1h 11m
   (1h 38m A time) she was tired from her short second nap so I allowed her to nap longer lol I was just really winging it 
S/BT 800
NW 845
E 1244
E 527

So last night was REALLY good in terms of NWs! But I know her day was no where near ideal I don't know if she slept so well because she was so darn tired or if she's confirming that less naps and more A time is what she needs

WU 800
S 1003-1205/2h 1m
   (2h 3m A time) I capped this one
S 220-346/1h 26m
   (2h 15m A time) she awoke naturally from this nap but I planned to cap it at 1.5 anyway
S -attempted CN at 550-
BT 702
   (3h 16m A time)
NW 745
E 1135
E 144
NW 532

Today I was trying to push out her A times and planning to give her 1 2hr nap, 1 1.5 nap, and a 30m CN but the CN failed. I'd really like to stay with an 8am WU because thats the time DS gets up for the day..I honestly don't have it in me to get up an hr earlier since DH lives and works in a different city half of the week

[larren]

Yesterday was a more stable day in terms of sleep times. I tried 2 - 1.5, 1 - 45 again. She was fussy and seemed to tire sooner but I will try again today and see how she goes
WU 8
S 1011-1152/1h 40m
   (2h 11m A time) falling asleep during WD
S 201-334/1h 32m
   (2h 8m A time) awoke naturally
S 522-606/43m
   (1h 48m A time) fussy at PD
BT 816
   (1h 58m A time) fussy at PD
E 1123
NW/E 227 tried to soothe her at first since it was <3 hrs since her last feeding
NW/E 630 she was cooing like it was the beginning of her day but I fed her and she went back to sleep after a few minutes

She always has NW that she self soothes through in her first few hours after BT but I don't mention those because she's handling them but I was wondering if her restlessness is any indiction of her day?

[Layla]

She could be getting used to it still (shorter naps and longer nights) or it could also be from other things -  i remember when I was trying to stretch dd3 A times, I had to take her out a lot to distract her as she would get tired around the time she would have otherwise had her nap. Could she maybe be teething and a little more cranky because of that?

[larren]

She's not teething..I was anticipating that at the first signs of her sleep troubles and even got her an amber necklace! Could she be wanting to transition out of her rock and play sleeper? I'm not sure what the signs are of LOs outgrowing them, though I did try to do a search.

I think she's breaking the past two days have been awful both in terms of naps and nights. I'm confused because I don't know if she is OT or UT..when we do WD she is fussy and even falling asleep but she doesn't nap long

Should I take a step back and let her catch up or keep going?

(yesterday) WU 8
S 1007-1147/1h 39m
   (2h 7m A time) WU naturally
S 151-240/49m
   (2h 3m A time) DD was fussy, crying/grunting, falling asleep during WD so I was hoping to get a good nap out of her but she WU naturally and wouldn't go back to sleep after 20m of trying
S 424-523/59m
   (1h 44m A time) I was going to allow this one to be a little longer since her second nap was more of a CN but she WU naturally from this nap also and wouldn't go back to sleep after 10m of trying
BT 724
   (2h A time)
E 1046
NW 1158
E 1223
E 431
E 703

(today) WU 811
S 1037-1150/1h 13m
   (2h 26m A time) I attempted to put her down 10m earlier but she was so resistant I brought her back out. She was crying again when I put her down 10m later.  Attempted to put her back to sleep for 10m after she WU.
S 151-249/58m
   (2h A time) she was quiet when I placed her in bed so I was hoping for a good nap but still only got an hr even after trying for 10m
S 501-538/37m
   (2h A time) I wanted to let her sleep longer for this nap also because the first two were not so great but she would not extend after 20m of trying
BT 720
   (1h 40m A time) fussy and crying when I put her down, needed to be shh/rocked for 15m
NW 838
NW 957
NW 1106
...and counting

I hope for a better night but who knows!

are my messages too detailed? lol I just want to do what I can to make it easier 

[Layla]

How did you go last night?

Maybe the rock and play is too small for her... at around 3-4 months, we had to move dd3 to a cot because she would bang her hands on the sides of the bassinet! Also, is she in the same room as you? Are you going to her too quickly maybe and she's used to that?

[larren]

I have been slowly trying to stretch out her A time but she is still not where she should be, but what I'm finding is that it's very difficult to put her down for naps and even BT. She is fussy and crying and needing to be rocked. Are these signs that I am pushing her too much? Yesterday she capped her CN at 30m and didn't sleep until 10pm, a 3h A time! She did similar the night before. So frustrating!!

[Layla]

It could be overtired but it could also be undertired . Is she closer to 6 months? What A time are you at now and how long does it take for her to fall asleep? If you reduce her A by say 10-15mins, does it take even longer for her to fall asleep?

[larren]

She'll be 6m in 4wks. Right now, the highest her A time gets is around 2h 15m, no more...except when she's crying for 3.5hrs at BT For her naps though, she usually falls asleep within a few minutes, like I've mentioned, lately it's harder and she's needing to be shh/rocked. When her A time is shorter, she falls asleep more quickly and quietly, usually without needing help. She's also waking herself from her naps a little shorter than 1.5hrs.

Is there something that I can do to help her go down easier at BT? She's having a NW right now (around 1h-1.5h after she fell asleep) and her cries are awful! Worse than when I first started to ST! When she gets like this, I try everything..cosleeping, nursing to sleep, etc..and nothing! Sorry for ranting lol I'm just so frustrated...

[Layla]

so if you're seeing that she settles easier with less A then take it back to those A times rather than pushing her....and maybe after a 30 min catnap she can only stay up 1.75hrs?

Is she working on anything new? rolling over? Could she be uncomfortable? too hot/too cold? Is she still swaddled? Could she be intolerant to something (if you're breastfeeding her)? Could it be that you're trying too much to settle her? In general, are you able to lay her down and leave her to put herself to sleep or do you rock her?

so sorry things aren't getting better .

[larren]

When I first started to ST, I was able to lay her down and she would fall asleep on her own (she would even SMILE when I swaddled her!), but lately she is either UT or OT that when I lay her down, she cries.

She hasn't rolled yet so she might be working on that. I try to gage her temp and remove layers of clothes if I think she could be hot because she is still swaddled (muslin, so the fabric isn't too thick). She is EBF but I haven't changed anything in my diet. Our WD is the same as it has been but I there is definitely more PU/PD action when she doesn't settle right away.

For her second nap today, I tried to go back to a shorter A time and started WD 10m earlier but she still would not settle. Thankfully DH is home and was able to relieve me and he was able to get her to sleep at 2.5hrs A time. Could I be misreading her cues and she is UT rather than OT?

Thank you so much for sticking through this with me Her cries are nothing I've ever heard and it really works my patience

[Layla]

Do you think she may be uncomfortable in the swaddle? Is she breaking out of it and waking herself up mid naps and at night?

Cues can start to become a little unreliable around this age. Maybe you could try less A again today/tomorrow and if you see she's fighting sleep and isn't falling asleep until she's around 2.5hrs anyway, then she is probably ready for the extra A.

I know there have been a lot of times I could have sworn dd was overtired but in reality she was undertired and as soon as I'd give her a little more A, she would stop the crying at nap/bedtime and would go back to going to sleep promptly. Of course you know your dd best and if you feel like its too much then like I said earlier, try less for a few days and see if that helps.

So many hugs hun... post back and let me know how tonight went

[larren]

Daylight savings time is really takes its toll when you have more than one LO, huh!? Both of them have been getting up earlier!

I've been playing with her A times and her nap lengths and seem to have better nights. She seems to be unsettled and has a few NW within the first 2hrs but only wakes 2x in the night for feedings after that. Isn't there some rule of thumb regarding those unsettled NW within the first few hrs..UT/OT?

For the past few mornings, she has also been WU and chatting and cooing to herself. I've read that I should allow her to settle herself back to sleep but it concerns me because it is so close to WU time, I'm afraid she'll put herself back to sleep only for me to wake her for the day 20m later. I also read on another thread that early WU is associated with longer first naps..I actually think you were the one responding to the OP Could that be the case with my DD; when I'm experimenting with her nap lengths the first one should always be capped at 1.5 to prevent EWU?

[Layla]

Yeah daylight saving (especially with a baby) isn't fun! Our clocks are changing in 2 weeks and I just hope dd3 will go along with the change...

Usually if the night waking is within the first 1-2hrs after bedtime, that for us means overtired.

If the morning nap is too long or too close to wake up time, that can reinforce the early wake ups. How long does she sleep for in the morning? I thought you were capping her morning nap to 1.5hrs already?

[larren]

Last night was the worst night we've ever, EVER had. DD was awake until 11pm!

When DD doesn't naturally WU on her own, I've noticed that if I let her have a 1h 45m, 1h 30m, 30-45m naps, that she has good nights but chatty EWU. So I was capping her naps but giving her an extra 15m for one nap because her nights seemed to be better that way.

Yesterday she naturally WU from all of her naps 2x 1.5, 1x 37m CN. I tried to put her down for BT after 1h 20m A time and she kept waking up after a few minutes. When I thought she was finally asleep, I took a shower but she WU and cried during my entire shower and until we both went to sleep at 11 

I feel like I'm doing it all wrong because she is becoming more difficult to put down, sometimes not just BT. When she has bad nights and falls asleep late, should I still follow the 8am WU and try to stretch her A times? What about her EWU, should I push A times then too? I know BW is more routine than schedule but I feel like if I go more off of her cues, then she would be put down for BT so early! Would I make it worse for myself if I just forced her to a 3-2? I feel like if it gets better now, in a few weeks, I'll have to deal with transitioning her to 3-2

Thanks again for all of your help and sticking with me. It really helps that I can turn here especially when DH isn't home to help me

[Layla]

Hun, I think 1hr20 isn't long enough for her, even after the catnap. I had the same A before bedtime, even after the catnap (at 4 months it was 2hrs). How long did she end up being awake for before bedtime then? 3hrs?

When she has bad nights, you could probably let her sleep in a little, maybe an extra 30mins but I probably wouldn't do more than that to stay on schedule. Or you could let her sleep in and wake up naturally but you might find her morning nap will be less than 1.5hrs and it may only be a short, 30-45min nap.

The EW and fighting sleep may mean in your case that she's ready for the 3-2

How did you go with reducing her A's - did it help or make her fight sleep even more?

[larren]

I've been trying to stretch her A times to slowly make the 3-2 transition but I'm finding that she still gets cranky and fussy with <2hrs A time. Despite that, I jiggle and dance to push her to at least start WD with 2hr A time..is that okay or am I making mistakes towards an OT baby?

She has skipped her CN these past 2 days giving her a 2h30m and 3h20m A time after a 1h35m nap. Are those A times too long? I have a few questions regarding CN: 1) what time is too late for a CN? 2) how long should I try to make her take a CN before I write it off as "fighting" and go on with our day? 3) if she does fight CN, what time is BT too early or at what A time should I aim to get her to bed at?

Her A time before BT today was 3h 20m..I tried for 20m to get her to CN but she resisted so I got her ready for her BT WD routine but I feel like her A time was way too long. I know she was tired and she fussed but essentially went down fine. I'm afraid it's too much for her and she will be OT..she slept great last night, though..still babbling in the morning but only had 2 NW before the early morning babbling.

[Layla]

If she skips her catnap, I would probably do bedtime an hour earlier (and not have her awake for anymore than 3hrs). I used to give mine up to 4pm to take her catnap (with regular bedtime being around 6.30pm)... if her usual catnap is around 5pm, maybe you could give her up to 5.30 pm to see if she will fall asleep and if she's not asleep, move onto bedtime routine.

I do think over 3hrs is too much but if its a one off then don't worry about it... this is why its important to have the other naps spread out a bit so that there isn't so much A before bedtime. The morning A may be a little tricky.. some babies like to have less A in the morning, with A's getting longer as the day goes.

[larren]

The past two days she has skipped her CN, three days ago I AP her CN because I remember we used to do it for DS when he was making the 2-1 transition. Do you recommend more to AP CN or EBT? Other than the other day, I haven't successfully AP another CN, though. DD has been going to sleep at 630, it seems so early!

In regards to stretching her A, should I push her 5m everyday or 10-15m every few days like the 3-2 transition sticky says? She's at about 2h 15m now and she falls asleep during WD, is that okay or is that a sign of pushing her too much? When making nap transitions, is it more by the clock and consistently adding more A time? She also WU from naps cranky..I assume she is just getting used to all of it also?

Oh, some nights she has NW where she doesn't go back to sleep after she has nursed. She cries and needs help getting back to sleep, which takes between 20m-30m. Is that an indicator of anything?

Sorry for all of the questions  I'm just eager to getting back to having more predicable days. Thank you, thank you again for all of your help 

[Layla]

If you can AP and it doesn't affect her nights, then you could continue to do that. For us, there came a time when the catnap was interfering with her nights (she would wake more at night on days she had her 3rd nap) so I went ahead with doing very early bedtime as I was stretching her A's. When she goes to bed at 6.30pm (which was an hour later than our bedtime during the 3-2), does she wake early too or does she seem to sleep until her usual wake up time? Do you find she's sleeping better at night and will fall asleep quicker after a feed on those nights?

I did 10-15mins every couple of days but if it seems like that's too much of a stretch for her, then do just 5 mins per day. Dd3 used to also fall asleep during WD. How long are her naps now? Is she cranky for a little bit and then ok or cranky throughout her whole next A time?

Her waking up at night and needing help to get back to sleep could be lots of things? Have you found a correlation between her doing this when she's had the catnap or not?

[larren]

Because she has been skipping her CN, she has been having a 3hr A before BT every day for the past week or so, is that fine? She seems to be handling it fine as her nights are good (with the exception of those two consecutive nights she had NW that needed assistance). On the days she skips her CN and goes for EBT, she usually WU a little earlier than usual; around 730-745, as oppose to 8am or later. There doesn't seem to be a correlation between her CN and NW that need help..happened one night (no CN), then the following day had the AP CN and had another NW. Might've happened more frequently but my notes are all over the place in the middle of the night  I have to try harder at being on top of that...

I've been capping her naps at 1h 30m..sometimes I get busy and go a little over but it stays in the ballpark. When she WU cranky, it is usually only for a little bit. This morning, though, I think I may have pushed her too much and her first nap was only 1h 5m and she was cranky throughout her A. I have her A marked at 2.5hrs but it might've been more if she WU earlier than I thought. Would it be okay to lengthen her second nap in this case? I'm afraid her day will be so short if I don't (assuming she skips her CN).

EDIT: neighborhood kids woke her at 1h 38m

[Layla]

If she's handling 3hrs before bedtime, then that's good! Try not to stretch her more than that though. In my opinion, her wake up is pretty good, she's going to bed at 6.30pm and waking up at 7.30am, which is excellent (with the exception of those few nights )

I would let her sleep longer in the pm if her morning nap was cut short too. I am sorry to hear she was woken up by your neighbour's kids.. I hope you managed to get her to take the catnap and if not, try and not worry about it too much... she seems to be doing well with earlier bedtime so my suggestion would be to do just that!

I hope she has a good a night tonight

[larren]

She took a 45m CN yesterday and just like your DD, she had more NW. Her first nap today was 1h38m but her second one was only 1h5m again! Both A were 2.5hrs..could I be pushing her too much, causing her to take short naps? DH is with her right now, attempting to lengthen her nap because I'm now dreading a CN 

[Layla]

Sorry to hear about that...I hope your DH manages to extend her nap!

[larren]

Her nap lengths are getting shorter and shorter and even when she has a sufficient nap length, she seems restless and easily unsettled. The past two days one of her naps were only 1hr and today it was only 40 minutes! DH tries to settle her forum to 40m with no success. I've tried looking up the "45m nap intruder" but it seems to apply to younger babies. Could DD shorter naps be an indicator of being OT? Her A is around 2h30m-2h35m. Help

[Layla]

Try shorter A times over the next few days if you feel she's getting overtired. When she woke up from the short nap, was she crying and it was obvious she needed more sleep or was she happy? Mine would wake and cry if she was overtired...

[larren]

When she wakes from a short nap I leave her hoping she'll self settle and fall back asleep but she just stays in her bed looking around, after a few moments she starts talking to herself until I get her. 

I think part of the issue is how lightly she's sleeping. When she naps, the entire household has to be quiet and I have gotten so anxious and high strung because my 3 year old is doing what 3 year olds do. Today her morning nap was only an hour again and this time she awoke because my husband peed in the guest bathroom (TMI sorry). We already use a white noise machine and I've closed all of the windows in the bedroom so that outside noise doesn't come in. I honestly feel like I'm going crazy.

Does how deeply she sleeps depend on how UT/OT she is? How deeply she sleeps is fine at night but her naps is when her sleep seems easily disturbed.