Why is she doing this? I'm on the edge!!

[Hollie-Mae]

My dd is 6mo on Thursday and everything has gone wrong. The issue for this post is the dream feed. She is somehow waking up during it, getting wind, I then have to wake her to get the wind up then when I think she's asleep in my arms and put her down again she smiles at me. This went on until 1.30am last night when I'd tried everything, I ended up taking her out in the car. As you can imagine she's then so over tired all day, won't eat properly, a vicious cycle. What is going on???

[Shiv52]

Have you dropped the CN and moved to 2 naps yet?  Sounds like UT behaviour x

[Hollie-Mae]

Yes we dropped the cn a while ago as it didn't fit in to the day any longer. It does sound like it but she can't possibly be UT unless she's had secret espressos lol she's been a bugger for sleep for weeks and naps are all over the place!

[Shiv52]

Can you post your day?

How many oz of milk does she take in a day?  Has she been finishing her DF?

And lastly is she an independent sleeper?

[Hollie-Mae]

Well milk is an issue at the moment as she's just not so interested.  Yesterday she had  22oz  of milk feeds, 2oz of milk in her morning porridge and a solid food lunch. Over the past few weeks despite my best attempts I've just not been able to get her to take her usual 7oz bottles. She's dropped the second milk of the day as she was only having 2oz and that was a fight! She wasn't sleeping through the night until I got her up to the amount of milk she's having now and for a whole I had to give her three solid feeds a day but I felt it was too much too soon as she was getting constipated and I'd rather give her all milk and no food at this age! Yep she finishes the df. This morning she only seemed to want 2oz milk but I persevered and played with her between each oz and managed to get her to drink 4oz before adding another two to porridge!

She's not a completely independent sleeper, I do put her down drowsy  and she falls asleep with her dummy in holding my hand, I've had one or two nights where I've been able to put her down eyes open and talking and with some patting, dummy and bunny in her hand she's fallen asleep by herself, but the conditions are very rarely right for me to teach her to do this, she seems to need to be held for quite a while to get drowsy enough before being put down to fall asleep if this makes sense?

An average day looks like this-

Wu- 7am
E- 7.30 (milk then porridge)
S- 9.45-10.30
E-11 (solids)
S- 1.15-2.45
E- 3 (milk)
E- 6.30 or 7 depending on how tired/hungry she is (milk)
BT- between 7 and 7.30 after bath
DF- between 10 and 11

[Lolly]

I would have a play with her bottle timings and see if that helps. At 6 months she should really still be on 4 day time bottles with solids offered about an hour after a milk feed. The 11am E would be better as a milk feed and then some solids about 12 ish.

Do you have her on the fastest flow teat? She could also be teething by now which often disturbs their milk intake, you could try teething gel on her gums a little bit before a feed.

Laura

[Shiv52]

I agree about milk intake. At 7.5 months I needed to totally stop all solids with my DD2 as her milk intake just got silly and after a week or two introduced solids slowly again. Milk has way more calories per oz at this age so you want to make sure you get it into them or you'll end up all night like I did!

She's not a completely independent sleeper, I do put her down drowsy  and she falls asleep with her dummy in holding my hand, I've had one or two nights where I've been able to put her down eyes open and talking and with some patting, dummy and bunny in her hand she's fallen asleep by herself, but the conditions are very rarely right for me to teach her to do this, she seems to need to be held for quite a while to get drowsy enough before being put down to fall asleep if this makes sense?

At this age this could be becoming an issue. Because you are an integral part of her going to sleep and the sleep between BT and DF is probably enough to revive her to play and have fun. And because she needs you to go to sleep you can't leave her to it YK?  I would start by either putting her down more away then ssh patting or else keep helping her get drowsy but remove the hand holding so she starts to do more of the going to sleep herself. What do you think?

[Hollie-Mae]

I agree totally with milk intake. She was really hungry yesterday and cried an hour after her solids lunch so I offered her milk and she took 4oz, but then it all goes downhill. It just seems if there is any spacing she isn't hungry at the next feed. Well, that's what I was assuming, but it seems she just doesn't really want milk anymore! We had a really bad night as she woke at 9.30, hungry, I made her wait until 10 for the dream feed hour and she only took 3oz which was what she had lacked from the bottle before bed so I needed to get more into her to sustain her through the night but she just would not take it and then would not settle. We tried everything before my husband ended up taking her out in the car. I then tried dream feeding it when she was in bed but she obviously wasn't asleep enough and it woke her and she erupted again!

Today she woke hungry and took 5oz which is good for her. I waited an hour and gave her porridge with the remaining 2oz and then decided to give no more solids for the day, just milk. All other feeds have been bitty and a fight. I obviously don't want to create a snacking habit either I just don't know what to do? Every time she has seen myself or my husband eat she has been rooting for food, in the end before bed she would only take 2oz so I made porridge with 2oz and she was dribbling at the sight of the bowl! Hopefully that will get her through to a deep sleep to give her the rest of the bottle as a dream feed to the sustain her before the dream feed!

As for the getting to bed, for the past two nights I've put her down awake, put the bunny in her hands and my hands on top to keep them from reaching out for me (sob!) and to teach her that bunny is who she should hold (sob! Why is that so hard??!!) and patted slowly until her breathing has slowed and then rolled her onto her back. So far, so good. Does that sound right? Am I not creating more props in doing this?

Thanks so much for all your help, god this is hard!!!

[Shiv52]

As for the getting to bed, for the past two nights I've put her down awake, put the bunny in her hands and my hands on top to keep them from reaching out for me (sob!) and to teach her that bunny is who she should hold (sob! Why is that so hard??!!) and patted slowly until her breathing has slowed and then rolled her onto her back. So far, so good. Does that sound right? Am I not creating more props in doing this

Hugs xx

My Dd1 did this. She always wanted to rub our arms or hold on. I did let her for a bit and then moved a bit so she did the rest herself and got to sleep. I think what you're doing sounds a good compromise between providing the physical touch she likes and is used to settling with but it's less of a prop as it's you touching her so as she gets better at going to sleep herself you can fade back.

How did last night go?

[Hollie-Mae]

Thank you, I'm finding it really hard but she's taking it all in her stride!! She went down really easily last night and giving her porridge helped to keep her asleep long enough for me to give her the rest of her milk as a dream feed. She was then obviously not very hungry for the actual dream feed as wasn't really sucking, and when I took the bottle from her mouth she stirred but this was enough to get her sucking and she took 4oz, I then used dummy, bunny and patting to get her back into a deep sleep.

Milk is still such an issue, I just don't know how to get round it. She only took 3oz at 7.30, I waited an hour and decided to re-offer milk instead of solids but she refused, so I thought I'd not give her any solids in the hope she'd take a full bottle at the next feed, but she's just had it and again she will only take 3oz. She woke after 45mins first nap too which is a recurring issue at the moment, after 2.45 A time (was winging at 2 hours 15 mins but I held her out to her normal A time, perhaps it's GS and she's OT?) I wonder if the lack of milk is waking her, but then you'd think she'd take more milk at the next feed?!

She has size 3 fast flow teats which I think are the fastest I can get except variflow which just choke her!!

[Hollie-Mae]

Just to add an update to this with going down for nap- she was really crying an hour before this next nap was due so I'm suspecting perhaps she is going through a GS and maybe I need to go with her for naps for the time being rather than going by the clock? This makes me a little uncomfortable as I like knowing what and when, but seeing as she's only getting half a nap by following the clock my way isn't working anyway! I decided to use APOP and put her down early and she went down with ease. This is what I did-

Cuddle with dummy for probably less than a minute, put in the cot fully awake.
Turned on her side with bunny between her hands, she actually held him this time and only reached out for me once, perhaps she's learning already (sob! But proud mummy!)? I only patted when she wriggled, as if to tell her to calm. I don't shh as this seems to overload her. When not patting I put some pressure on her shoulder to keep her from fiddling with her hand (she likes to take her dummy out then upsetting herself!) and she quickly went to sleep! The whole thing took possibly 4/5 minutes. 

So I'm just hoping this sounds right? Also what am I aiming for, what should be the end goal? Should I be hoping to be able to cuddle for a minute, put her down with dummy and bunny and she falls asleep by herself? Obviously this will take a long time but it would just be helpful to know what I'm aiming to achieve so that I don't make more AP mistakes! Although I can't quite believe how far we've come in just a few bt/naps! Xx

[Shiv52]

You've come a long way! Well done you and your LO!! You should be very proud.

It definately could be a GS.  Maybe follow her lead for a day or two and then we can look at the times and see what she's trying to tell you.

Keep up the good work x

[Hollie-Mae]

Ok so it's been a few days now, I've cut out solids, used size 3 teats and having great success with the new sleep routine, but she still won't take enough milk. I'm getting 25oz in to her on a good day, which often looks like-

7.30- 3oz
11- 7oz
3- 3oz
6.30- 7oz
Df- 5oz

Last night she ended up in bed with me after waking at 00.40 and refusing to settle. Having fussed all through the night with me, I hoped she'd take a full bottle first thing, but she has still only taken 3oz!
My hv has only been able to suggest putting nesquick in her milk (she had cmpa so has neocate cows milk free formula) but I can't see how this can be good for her?! I'm almost at the point of trying but thought I'd post here first just in case anybody has any other suggestions, I really don't know what to do anymore!!!

[Hollie-Mae]

Oh and I'm also reluctant I add nesquick as she's not actually reluctant to drink when hungry enough- thus the spacing of feeds. When she takes a 7oz bottle she has screamed for it early as it's usually after a 3oz bottle so she's got so hungry I've had to feed her early! And she will eat food containing the milk, so I don't think she is disliking the taste, I've never had a problem with her starting to drink, it's just this new issue of drinking it all

[Lolly]

Is she actively teething at the moment? That could be the issue or a big part of it. She had 25oz yesterday which is actually an ok amount of milk for her age (20oz is the minimum they need).

What were the symptoms of her milk intolerance (or is it a true allergy?) - is she/ was she a refluxer?

I would start the solids again, but just once in the morning for now and maybe just be guided by her - feed her when she asks for it for a few days rather than worrying about the routine. You may find that she takes bigger bottles that way.

Laura

[Shiv52]

Nesquik isn't dairy free from what I could find quickly on google so am a bit baffled at your HV suggesting it in the first place and more more baffled considering your LO has cmpa.

I wondered about reflux too?

[Hollie-Mae]

I'm hoping teething is the issue though this has been going on for weeks now. She has the first two teeth at the bottom clearly visible in the gum but they still haven't cut, she's really gumming everything and has started sucking her fingers all the time which she's never done before. I made some custard with milk as didn't want to give her anything too filling but also something I could use the most milk with and she loved it, so she isn't lacking in appetite and was clearly hungry. I guess it would make sense not to want to suck from a teat if you had sore gums!

So far she's only managed 5oz today, would only take 2oz at last feeding so we're worse than yesterday, though this doesn't count what she's had in solids as unfortunately custard has to be made with a pint of milk, so I can't measure how much she's getting in a small portion!

She was a refluxer before we changed her formula but the symptoms have gone now that she's dairy free. Prior to the dairy free formula she constantly had trapped wind, would scream constantly until the wind was up which could take hours, stomach cramping, writhing around with the pain, arching her back, constipation and lack of colour in her skin. We haven't had her tested as we've had a different baby since she's been on the new formula, though we are tempted as we've been told to stay away from soya too as it's common for cmpa babies to be allergic to soya too, which reduces her diet a fair bit! I had cmpa as a baby and soya too, my brother had cmpa but not soya.

You know that was my first thought when my hv suggested it!! Since she's been dairy free, even the smallest amount causes her severe stomach pains and hours of screaming- I gave her some teething granules without realising they contained lactose, and she was constipated for two days, so I'm reluctant to give her milkshake powder!! Though my neighbour says she has a strawberry pot and it says nothing except 'may contain soya'.

[Shiv52]

How's she been? Sorry you're struggling still.  Do you think it's the taste of the formula is putting her off?

[Hollie-Mae]

Thank you for asking, I'm sorry to keep coming back at you with this post but you lot really are my only source of help, I just don't know what to do anymore. She still has no teeth, is still barely drinking any, and although 20oz may be enough for her age, we're having more and more night wakings. Last night she was awake from 3-4 despite pu/pd, patting and pressure and all of my attempts, even 15 minutes of rocking! The only way she will go back to sleep is in bed with me. It's not habitual either as it's at random times. I don't really have much of an easy to post you as sometimes she screams before 4 hours for milk so I feed her at 3, 3.5 hours, and I'm convinced she needs to go from 2,45 A time to 3 hours as we're only having 45 minute naps which I can't extend despite desperate attempts, but she is so tired u can't get her to extend A time at all.
I am on my last legs with nobody here to support me, I just don't know what to do anymore?

[Shiv52]

Hugs Hun xx

45 minute naps are generally UT naps. LOs come into a light cycle of sleep at 40-45 minutes and if they are UT they wake and don't go back to sleep as they've had enough sleep and just aren't tired enough to sleep any more so I think you are right. She needs to be on 3 hours A time likely 3.15 to get better naps.

Did you feed last night at 3/4?  So she eventually went to sleep in your bed? 

Is your OH able to help out at nights?  To give you a break?  Or is he willing to do the DF and first half of the night so you can get some rest?

[Hollie-Mae]

That's exactly what I've been thinking, she was only have 45 minute first nap and then a longer second, but now both are 45 minute which screams longer A time, I think I'm just going to have to suffer the fight and stretch her out. Will attempt 3 hours first and see how we go. She's only just 6mo, is 3 hours about right or is more where I should be aiming for? How do you fit it all in to a 4 hour easy with such a long A time?

Unfortunately he is selfish, he has to get up for work in the morning so no, he won't help!

Do you think I should tackle the longer A time to get longer naps thus hoping to conquer the nw? I haven't been feeding when she wakes in the night I've just given up nice she hasn't settled in her bed and put her in with me as I didn't want to create a new night feeding habit. Do you think I should feed when she wakes?

Thank you so much, you honestly have no idea what it means to have someone to huge me some ideas, right now I really need a mum!! Xxx

[Lolly]

Would it be worth taking her back to the Dr regarding the reflux? I know the milk has made a difference but it does sound like she could be in pain and the decreasing milk intake could be a sign that she is refluxing again along with the sleep issues. I would ask for a meds trial, it would only take a couple of weeks of ranitidine at a decent dose for weight to rule it out or in. If she is teething that will make the reflux flare up.

Laura

[Shiv52]

Yes three hours is about right and yes it will take a few days to get her used to it.  I'd keep doing what you are and maybe not feed at night just to see do the longer A times help sort the nights.

I can't remember exactly but at 6 months our routine was something like:
8am wake up and feed
11am nap
1230 wake up
3.30 nap
5 wake up
8/8.15 bed 

I fed at 8 after naps and before bed so not quite 4 hourly and sometimes I tended to do a top up before naps to make sure they didn't wake out of hunger.

Unfortunately he is selfish, he has to get up for work in the morning so no, he won't help!

Hugs xx. I had one of those too and it was really hard. In the end I snapped and insisted he either did bedtime to 2am and then I'd take over or else he could do from 2am to morning.  My DH preferred the earlier stint as he was rubbish getting up during the night once he was asleep. Meant as well I could go get a bath and get to bed while he put the baby to bed and knew I wasn't on call until 2/3. He soon got used to it.   Being at home with a baby is way way harder than going to work so your DH needs to get with it and help out. You need a break too. The first 18 months of our DD1s life was really hard on our relationship as my DH was really selfish and really needed constant reality checks and very clear instructions as to what was expected.  Used to drive me nuts that he'd stay up late watching tv and then complain he was too tired to get up with the baby at the weekend.

[Shiv52]

I do also agree with Laura that it doesn't seem quite right that she's fighting the feeds etc and it could be reflux is still an issue too x

[Hollie-Mae]

She's unfortunately had hardly any sleep today as my mother in law ignores my clear instructions and I had no choice but to leave the baby with her as I am selling my horse- I have no time for my horse because my husband's hobby takes over our life!! So will start the 3 hour as time tomorrow and desperately hope for a change in this bad period we're having.

Unfortunately no matter what I say he won't help, he also sits in front of the tv or gets his fishing stuff ready but refuses to help me, will huff if I ask him to wash up, despite the fact that the dishes are dirty because I used things to cook his dinner!! He is also away a few nights a week with his hobby and often works nights with his job so he's rarely here anyway.

In what way do you think it may be reflux? I'm seeing the paed next week so hopefully I might shed some light on the refusing to drink.

[Lolly]

In what way do you think it may be reflux? I'm seeing the paed next week so hopefully I might shed some light on the refusing to drink.

Have a look at this list of symptoms - refusing to feed/ poor or erratic feeding, irritability and sleep issues are red flags for reflux. They don't have to be vomiting or losing weight for it to be reflux, my two were both  mostly silent refluxers and the sleep and feeding issues were their biggest symptoms.

Baby may have all or some combination of the following:

pain, irritability, constant or sudden crying, "colic"
frequent spitting-up or vomiting (large amounts or small amounts – or “silent reflux,” where baby does not spit up at all)
vomiting or spitting-up more than one hour after eating
not outgrowing the spitting-up stage
poor sleep habits, frequent waking
pain while lying flat
"wet burp" or "wet hiccup" sounds
recurrent or persistent hiccoughs
chronic dry cough
gassiness: from gulping air while crying and eating too voraciously
apnea – voluntarily holding breath while eating or sleeping, air then comes rushing in with an audible wheeze (and if eating, choking and gagging following apnea)
constant eating and drinking (swallowing temporarily relieves the pain)
refusing to feed, arching back, crying on breast or bottle even though hungry
poor weight gain; weight loss; failure to thrive in extreme cases
swallowing problems, gagging, choking
hoarse voice
frequent red, sore throat
ear infections
constantly running nose; sinus infections
bad breath, tooth enamel erosion
excessive salvation, drooling
peculiar neck arching, Sandifer's Syndrome
respiratory problems; pneumonia, bronchitis, wheezing, asthma, nighttime cough, apnea, aspiration, noisy or labored breathing (extreme cases)
eating disorders (extreme cases) – baby forgets how to eat and needs to be re-taught

Do any of these symptoms fit her at the moment?

{{HUGS}} on the husband issues too - have you tried making lists of what you do around the house and what he does? The reality is, if you are staying at home with your DD then she is your job like his outside work is his job - the house is a joint job!

Laura

[Hollie-Mae]

Thank you Laura this has really raised a lot of issues for me, I just feel so frustrated and let down by everybody who has been involved with my daughter's health, it's been endless and I'm sure there is a simple answer, if only I was actually listened to and not fobbed off!!

She always has wet burps, she constantly has the hiccups, has a chronic dry cough-worse at night and when laying flat and is very gassy which used to cause pain but has improved since being on neocate. Another thing which isn't on the list so may be irrelevant, when she does drink, she spills a hell of a lot, so much so she wears a bib and two Muslins folded four times to prevent her from getting soaked! So when I say she is taking 3oz, I don't know if she actually is! Do you think this is relevant? It makes no difference which size teat she has either?

I went to the gp today to ask for omepirozole as I posted on another group after reading your post to ask mums with cmpa babies of their experience of this and reflux and so many have agreed with you and suggested this medication. She refused to prescribe it as I am seeing a paediatrician next Thursday, I should get him to prescribe as it's so expensive!

As for my husband, I don't think anything will get through to him. He has watched me sell my horse today, my other baby who was my dream and my life before my dd came along- I was mucking out whilst having contractions with dd! He is still going away this weekend, and still has the cheek to say he hopes the baby sleeps tonight as he has to be up at 5 for fishing. God help me.

[Lolly]

If you are seeing a paed make sure you mention the feeding issues - has she ever been checked for tongue tie? You need to ask about dysphagia too as that can mimic reflux because of the difficulties in feeding  Alternative diagnoses and Reflux mimics.

I'm sending a cyber slap for Mr Insensitive too

Laura

[michaeljacknnugg]

Hugs honey - I know how big a deal it is to have to sell your horse. I didn't think I could get through things with a baby and my two, but we got there in the end. DH's support was crucial - I hope your DH realises what you've given up.

[Hollie-Mae]

You know, he really has no idea. I felt absolutely broken last night and all he could say was 'how do we fill the hole? What could you do instead to help you get over this?' She's gone to a fantastic home but that fills me with little comfort right now, I've been forgetting all day that I don't gave her anymore and had to remind myself that I needn't worry about her needs as I'm no longer the one to fulfil them! I can't wedge that gap. I know it will get easier over time but I don't know how I can ever forgive him for this.

Laura, thank you, I'm getting myself fully prepared for my dd's appointment on Thursday, as each day passes and the more info I get from people I speak to, the more convinced I am that this is a reflux issue left untreated. Hope the paediatric knows what's coming on Thursday! Xx

[Lolly]

You go girl! Good luck, make sure you let us know how you get on.

Laura

[Shiv52]

How'd the appointment go Hun?

[Hollie-Mae]

Hi ladies!!
Well, last Thursday was a full on day to say the least!! The appointment was absolutely horrendous. Despite how clued up I was, regardless of the list of symptoms sat on the desk in front of him and the use if medical terms I used to explain what has been going on for Rosie, the paediatrician STILL refused to accept that she has reflux, in fact he then went on to argue that since her weight is now over the centile she was at when he last saw her, she no longer needs to be on cows milk free formula as that has made no difference, wants me to reintroduce dairy and soya, and spent most of the appointment questioning why I wasn't 'appreciative' of my daughter's weight gain, and why I wasn't getting any help at home!! He wants to see us back in four weeks, with his last words being 'by then I want to hear that you've had at least four nights to yourself'!!!!!

As you can imagine I cried so much I gave myself a headache. I was absolutely flabbergasted. He said not sleeping is not a symptom of reflux, 'babies don't sleep', and she is gaining weight despite refusing milk so 'just feed on demand from now on, why are you sticking to a regime, she is a baby not a robot'!!!

I then left a went to our local hospital where I wish I'd seen a paediatrician for her in the first place, though we were turned away from a&e within 10 minutes as only drinking 0.5oz every 4 hours is not 'urgent' enough. I must admit by this point I had fully lost the plot and was at breaking point, and had no idea where to go next to get the help I knew Rosie needed.

Said useless husband was also not with me, so I was left to lose my marbles!!

The day ended on a high however, as I managed to get her an appointment with a private paediatrician and allergist, and for the first time in nearly 7 months, a medical professional finally listened to me!! It was exactly how it should be, he was telling me what Rosie's symptoms were, he was filling in the blanks, predicting what I would say next, and we went as far back as constant hiccups in utero- big sign of reflux!! I left feeling like the elephant had been lifted from my shoulders for the first time in 6 months!! He diagnosed her with gastritis, colitis and eosophagitis, all side affects of long term burning from gastroeosophageal reflux disease. He also suspects dairy, soya, wheat and gluten allergies!!

So she is now on four different meds, and it's now a slow process to reverse the affects of acid damage. Poor poppet. I have to say a huge huge thank you ladies, for your advice, knowledge and experience, as without this I wouldn't have had a clue that she was still suffering with this, and wouldn't have known to fight so hard for her!! Xxx

[Lolly]

{{HUGS}}

What a rollercoaster! I'm glad at least one Dr has listened to you but you really shouldn't have had to pay for that . Maybe the difference is that the private Dr was a specialist in the field rather than a general paediatrician. The paed my DS saw knew the basics but we have had more sense out of the paediatric GI Dr really.

What meds have they put her on just out of interest!

Laura

[michaeljacknnugg]

True, you shouldn't really have to pay, or to fight so hard either. But I'm glad you're on the road to progress, and feel that you finally have someone in your corner.

Counting on my fingers, my child is 6 and I've barely had 6 nights away from him (most of those with work) - so the paed can go figure!!

[Hollie-Mae]

Laura I'd love to tell you that he's a general paed, but he's a GI specialist!! And he told me he sees children like Rosie all the time!! Once his letter arrives I'm making a formal complaint, I still can't believe how patronising, ignorant and utterly useless he was!! We're a week tomorrow since she's been on the meds and the difference in her is remarkable! She's now taking so much more milk, and yesterday had two hour and half naps! I'm still having to go in and help her through at the 45 min mark as this wu has become a habit, but whereas before she would wu at 45 and cry if I tried to resettle, she now just needs her dummy in and pressure on her back and she stays asleep through it! Also last night I cut the dream feed as it has actually been waking her, and she slept through, with only one cry out (which was possibly teeth), for TWELVE HOURS!! She has never done this!!! I had my first early night in nearly 7 months!!

The meds are-
2ml ranitidine
10mg omeprazole
2ml cetirizine
300mg nalcrom

Xx

[Shiv52]

I am so pleased for you both. Well done hun for fighting so hard for your baby girl and I'd definately follow up with your own doctor and hopefully think twice next time a mummy asks for help xx