4 months nigtime mess

[Alisa masik]

hello
the  Lo in a week will turn 4 months.
we r trying the past week to do the easy scheduler starting from 7 am when the baby is up. every 1:20-30 going to sleep. it was the plan ' during which he has short naps- sometimes 20 min sometimes 40 ' almost never any longer even when i m trying get him back to sleep- it doesn't work.
before we started the easy - at nigh he would sleep: since 7:30-1 am, woke to eat- breastfeed, then woke at 4 - eat and sleep and sometimes awake till 5- then sleep till 7:30-8.
now its really a mess: since 7:30 pm till 10 pm- wakes up to eat,  also for a weak we tried to dream feed around 11:30 and now he wakes at 10 by himself. sleeps till 1- 2 am' : eat. sleep hour- 2 hours- wakes up - pacifier and shhh- sleeps and every 30 min wakes up ...till morning . witch every day is earlier by 30 min- today it was 5:50. final wake.
before the easy - wasn't napping more then 20-40 min but slept at night for 3 hours.  now its a mess- no one sleeps day or night
maybe is the easy by day affects his night?   I'm so tired and so is he.crying all day long.
please help
thanks
Alisa

[Layla]

Hi Alisa,

Hugs for the night wakings! Could you please post what the last 3-4 days have looked like for you? How long is your baby awake for before you put him to nap and if he does take a short nap and you can't resettle, how long do you keep him awake for before the next nap?

4 months is a tough age, there is a big sleep regression as well as growth spurt. Also, if you have to plug in the dummy for him to get to sleep and replug it for him to get back to sleep, the dummy could be the issue.

EASY isn't meant to be a strict schedule and so you don't have to stick to the routine as per book and to the letter.

[Alisa masik]

Hi Layla. 
The last 3-4 days.  Getting better a bit with the easy program.  He wakes up between 5:30-7. Breasted.  Play after 1hr 30 min. I  swaddle him , give him pacifier and lay beside him with ssssh method.  He sleeps for 20-40 min, when he awakes I continue with the shhh sometimes it works, sometimes doesn't not.  Wake up- eat, play , 1hr 30 min: again nap time. The hole proses for 3 times.  Then we go for a long walk after the third nap. Take him in a stroller. After 1-20 he falls a sleep in the stroller for 40 min. Wakes: eat. And from 4-4:30 till 7:30 doesn't sleep. Although he still in a stroller taking a walk till 6. 6:30; bath and eats.  7:30 sleep   , my husband sits with him for 10-15 min with a shhh method. Wakes at 10-11   Eats.  Sleep until 1 - am: eats,  then 3,5,6-7.  Every wake is settled by shhhh and pat for 30 min at least.

 Today first night we tried not to feed him after 11, calm down only by shhhh.no feeding  He woke up at 3 for 40 min of shhhhh.   Then 5,7.
The pacifier : just started to take it since we started easy.  Takes in the begging of the sleep, after 10-15 min spit it out.   So it doesn't seems to be the issue.

Is it ok to stop the breast feeding at night? Only the dream feed. He will be 4 months in a week.  Gaining weight very good.  Around 7.5 kg.

Will be happy to hear your suggestion about e night sleep. 
Thank u

[Layla]

I know some babies do quiet well and sleep through all night with just a DF but mine included didn't and not all are able to

I actually didn't do the DF as I didn't find it very useful with dd1 and so I never really did it with the others either and so with dd3, I always waited for her to wake naturally (which was a stretch of around 4-6hrs after bedtime), then I'd feed her and she would wake up another 1-2 times (at 4 months). She did manage to sleep straight through here and there but most of the time she would wake sometime around midnight and then another feed towards the morning. Sometimes she would wake 3 times at night and I would feed her (especially at this age, where there is a big growth spurt). Towards 6 months, she was able to either sleep straight through (12hrs) or would wake 1-2 times; by 9 months she was sleeping through more and more and only waking once for a feed and then soon after that she started to sleep straight through. So it was a bit of a slow progress for us but I never really pushed for longer than 4-6 hr stretch as in my opinion that was considered as sleeping through 

At 4 months, you can start to transition to 4hr EASY - so awake for 2hrs, eat every 4hrs... although if he's breastfed, he may not be able to last 4hrs in between feeds. We did awake for 2hrs but feed every 3.5hrs until we were around 5 months, when we were able to stretch feeds as well.

I would work on extending daytime sleep - see if you can get him past the 20-40min mark....I think maybe he's in an undertired/overtired loop... so he's awake for long enough to be tired but not long enough to want to sleep more than just one sleep cycle (past 40-45mins). Maybe you could try an extra 10-15mins over a couple of days to see if he will want to sleep longer...

Also I would do an earlier bedtime... I think he's awake for too long before bedtime. Sometime around 3-4 months, babies start to grow out of the 4th nap (the 4-3 nap transition) and with us, it meant adding a little more A before the other naps so that last stretch wasn't so long (which goes hand in hand with what I mentioned before about transitioning to 4hr EASY). Try working on a 12hr day and you might find he'll sleep better at night, especially towards the end of his night sleep/early morning sleep, where he's up every hour to two hours. So in your case, if he's awake from his last nap at 4.30pm, I would personally do bedtime at 6.30pm.

Be careful with using the paci too much... it might end up being a prop and he doesn't need to suck on it to self settle.... with shh/pat, he will find a way to calm himself. But if you don't see if being an issue and he spits it out and doesn't need it to get back to sleep, then it should be ok!

Let me know how you go

[Alisa masik]

Thank you again.  I didn't understand about the night feeding , when should I feed him ? After the dream feed? At 3 ? 5 ? Or not too.  Is he up so frequently cause he is hungry?
It wasn't like that, he used to sleep 3-4 hours at night.  Today it was every 2 hours all night long till finally got up at 5:30.  I read that babies at 4 months can last all night long after the dream feed. 

About the napping;I'm trying to prolong it but sometimes it doesn't work. Most of the times it's 20-40 min.  I will try to early the bd time hour yo 6:30-7.  But won't that make him get up even earlier then 5:30???

Ok yesterday put him down for night time at 6:30. , today he was up at 5:45.  No luck in shhhh pay to make him sleep. Tried to breast fead also didn't help. He makes it a pattern to wake up at 5:45. It's crazy!
Help please!!      Mis it possible the df has something to do with it?

[Layla]

Sorry about my long winded post! What I was trying to say is that its normal for them to wake at night and a DF doesn't necessarily mean they can sleep from the DF time to wake up time.

In summary, my rule of thumb was to follow the E's at night as they were during the day... so if/when my LO was eating every 3hrs during the day and if she would wake at night and it was 3+hrs, I would feed her. If she was up earlier, I would try and resettle.

I definitely think and earlier bedtime will help you hun. In general, at that age, you would aim for 11-12hrs at night and he's really waking up at 5.30am (even though you'd like him to wake at 7) and so I think bedtime of 6/6.30pm would work well for him for now and then once he's better rested, you can start to push out his day a little and push bedtime with the rest of the day.

So you put him to bed at 6.30pm but he woke for the day at 5:45am... he slept for approx 11hrs? Did he sleep better than other nights or was he still restless towards the morning?

[Alisa masik]

Hi LAyla, the night was also restless as the nights before. He woke at 2, I pat him.  Went to sleep till 3 : I feed him, and the next 2 hours spend trying to make him sleep with shhh pat . 5 he went finally to sleep. Woke at 6:30. Which is not bad , better then 5:30 , but I think that because he didn't sleep for the 2 hours at night.  Today put him to sleep at 6:30. We will see tonight.  I have shorten the hour still bed time : 6:30 instead of 7:30 , so it hurts his final nap   Cause he usually sleeps between 5-6, but now it's not good time cause it very close to the night time so I wasn't insisting on the last nap and he became very tired and kranky for 3 hours since his last nap.  So it all affecting his sleep in some way..

[Florena49]

I can relate to this, so sympathise, we used to have 5+ night wakings and i knew that he wasnt hungry all the time. The only way we managed to improve nights is by sleep training, the day he fell asleep on his own for his naps oir night improved, so we have had good nights( 2 wakings) to eat at 10.30ish and 3ish and up for tw day at 6.30. We had to work on shifting the awake time as LO woke beforw 6 every morning, i jave a thread goong about shifting the routine. Ours are still rubbish ocassionally especially on the days that we are out and about, but we are working on extending with W2s

[Layla]

Sorry hun, i didn't mean to stick to the  6.30pm bedtime no matter what... you mentioned that he takes his 3rd nap from 4-4.30pm and then doesn't sleep afterwards, despite being pushed around in the pram till 6pm.. so in that case, don't keep him up for 3 hrs till bedtime. If he usually has a nap from 5-6 (his last nap), then from when he wakes up, you would put him down no more than 2hrs A time. For example, if he wakes from his last nap at 5:30pm, bedtime would be 7.30pm (not to start routine but in bed and asleep by 7.30pm)

[Alisa masik]

Morning LAyla!
We'll today our night was : went to bed at 6:30  as I said, woke at 22:00 - pet and SSS.  23:00 had a dream feed.  Woke -t 01:00. Shh and pet.   Woke at 3: I breast fead him. Shhh and pet till 4.  Woke finally at 6:15. 
We r going mad , I think I messed my boy completely.  Cause at least he used to sleep at nigh long periods an wake up around 8-9.   Now; all day long I'm trying to make him sleep for a nap. And hw wake s so early.  I really don't know what to do. Cause I keep changing his routine all the time.   Should I still stick to the 6:30 bed time ? Would it eventually help his early wakinings ? Or should I go to 7:30 ? 
Yesterday he naped from 8:20 till 09:00.   And from12:30-14:30 (45 min plus 15 min shhh pat and the rest).  )).  Then at 4:30 tried to put him down for 20 min shhh , with no luck.  He was crying  and upset till 6:30. 

[Florena49]

If u wanted to shift his awake time in the morninh it is possible, it worked for us.

lO used to wake at 5.30/5.45, so this is what the ladies here suggested.

Treat this early waking as night time waking, so try and put him to sleep with shush/pat, say u want his wake up time to be 6.30, u have to shush/pat until 6.30! At 6.30 sneak out of the room then come back straight awake with lights on and a very cheery good morning. Get LO up and start ur day at 6.30.

So 6.30 wu
Next sleep due in say 2 hours so 8.30

Yes u will get the first nap OT but this is the quickest way and as ur hetting short naps anyway thay shouldnt make too much difference.  Is your LO an independent sleeper?

[Alisa masik]

Hi Victoria ,
We r changing so many stuff in his sleep right nigh that I'm already confused   Maybe I did that early mornings with me putting him down to sleep an hour earlier.  I don't know.
We will try that system that u suggested , although he is very awake to do the shh and pat. He is really up
He takes short naps. Indeed.  Today he woke up at six. I tryed to delay his first nap as the forum suggested, put him to sleep at 8:30. He woke after 20 min.
Thank u for your suggestion

[Florena49]

He might not go to sleep at all as you say in the morning, if he is calm u can just leave him and sit quietly in his room and just do shush pat if he cries to calm him, the idea is to signal to him that his day starts at a certain time, say 6.30, not 5am.

Does he fall asleep on his own or does he need your help in any way?

It all sounds exactly like our sleep 3 weeks ago before we started sleep training.

I think you need to decide for yourself what routine you want him to have so say 6-6 or 6.30-6.30 and work towards that. If he woke at 6 today and you are happy for this to be his awake time than I would just go with it.

So 6am wake up
Nap due 8.00am


Or whatever is your A time is now?

[Alisa masik]

Hi Victoria
He doesn't sleep by himself. We use shh and pat. He will be in a week 4 months old.  Is it too early to start teaching him to sleep by himself. ?   I want him to sleep at least till 7 , 8 it's too much to ask right ?
When he wakes up he is not calm. He wants us to pick him up and crying. So I can't imagine doing shh and pat for an hour when he is crying.

[Florena49]

Our LO is 19 weeks so we started 3 weeks ago, we were planning to do pick up/ put down, but i found that actually we were always able to calm him down in the cotbed without getting him out. Within a week he was able to fall asleep with a little shush and pat, and we relaxed a little. Last week we took the plunge and started withdrawing shush pat and giving LO an opportunity to fall asleep himself. He very quickly found his fingers and used them to self soothe when he was very upset. First few days were difficult there was a lot of crying.
We would do the wind down before bed put him into the cotbed if he cried i would come up and shush and pat as soon as he is calmer i would say sweet dreams and walk away from the cot, i cant rember how long it went on for the first time, but in the end he fell asleep sucking on his fingers. We did the same thing for all his naps and that night he only woke up twice to eat! To be honest i couldnt believe it, i see now that he simply a great sleeper and it didnt help that he needed us to fall asleep.
So I would say you te doing great with shush/ pat, but do start withdrawing it, so doing less and less of it.

[Layla]

Yesterday he naped from 8:20 till 09:00.   And from12:30-14:30 (45 min plus 15 min shhh pat and the rest).  )).  Then at 4:30 tried to put him down for 20 min shhh , with no luck.  He was crying  and upset till 6:30.

Am I right in that he slept till 9am and then awake until 12.30am? Are you following A times or cues? At 4 months, I would probably look at no more than 2hrs A and 3.5hrs is quiet a long time for him.

I agree that it would be a good idea to try and stay in the dark room until your wake up time but a lot of babies are wired to be awake between 6-7 naturally, in my opinion.

Are you shh/patting him to sleep? I started off doing shh/pat until mine was asleep but then over time took myself away from the picture and would shh/pat till she was sleepy but not asleep until I could lay her down and she'd go to sleep on her own. I don't think 4months is too young to start sleep training. I started with dd3 when she was just 6 weeks old but we did a very loose version of it and there were no expectations

[Alisa masik]

hi
well it havent really changed except now im trying to implementing your suggestions about the early wake- so we ssh and pat at 5:30 and he somehow manage to pul it till 7 - 7:30. but the nights are continue to be horrible. he wakes at 10,1,3,5. from 5-7 he wakes every 10 min. so we doing sshh and pat all the time. also at 1 when he wakes up we doing the ssh and pat about 45 min.
i was thinking - if we starting to do the pu/pd at night, will it maybe change his wakings?  at th e evenings and some of the naps i do sss and pat for 5 min and leave him to fall asleep on his own. also i understood that u cant do PU/PD when the baby is happy and bubbling to him self in th e middle of the night, right? he can be like that for 40 min , not sleeping. so should i change the ssh and patt to PU/PD  although at the evenings he falls asleep almost by himself ? and some naps too.
i tryied implementing PU/PD at one short nap today- always 30 min nap in the morning, tried for 40 min he cried non stop and then it was time to feed so we stopped. so i didnt see it working.
thank you

[Layla]

If he's happy you can't really be doing shh/pat or pu/pd, there is no point and it won't work. Actually extending naps with pu/pd never really worked for us either and if mine was awake from a short nap and just playing, I would leave her in the cot for another 15mins or so and then get her up. Extending naps can be tricky, especially at this age, where short naps can be developmental.

Could you post what the last couple of days have looked like?

[Alisa masik]

Hi.  We'll every day wakes around 5:30.
S: 5:30-7:15.  Today it was :5:30-6:20
E: 7:30-8
A:7:30-900
S:900-9:20
A:  9:20-11:30 E:10:30
S: 12-14
A:14-16. E:14:00
S:16-16:30
E:1700. Short
S:18:30 e : 1800
Prolong short naps;
Tried to wake him after 25 min and shh pat again for an hour: he fell asleep for 5 min  that's it.
Yesterday tried PuPd on a short nap: cried for 45 min each time.  Morning and afternoon

So the short naps r impossible to prolong.  But he has a good nap at noon 2 hours.  So he can sleep long.  Why other times it is so impossible?

[Layla]

He wakes around 5.30 and then does he go back to sleep from 5.30-7.15? or 6.20 (today)?

Then I noticed he only slept for 20mins in the morning and was then awake for 2.5hrs, where he did a longer nap and then had a 30min catnap.... the last S (6.30pm), was that going to be your bedtime? why did you try and wake him up after 25mins and shh/pat again for an hour?

Short naps aren't completely impossible to extend... it can be tricky for some babies as the part of the brain that is responsible for daytime sleep hasn't completely developed yet

Did you feed him at all for any of those night wakings he had last night?

[Alisa masik]

Hi LAyla. 
He Akers at 5:40 and then we shh him til 7-15.  Today was 6:30.
Tried to wake him in his short naps after 25 min cause he wakes up after 30 min each time.  Didn't help to prolong the sleep. For an hour cause I read that the nap suppose to be an 1.30 so he slept only 30 min so the rest of the hour I should try to make him sleep again.  No?? Should I stop before? When ?
At night: we have stop dream feed cause it doesn't seem to help.   So I only feed him once around 2:30-3 and then he is awake for an hour. Happy bubbling. We r trying to shhh him. Doesn't really work only after an hour he is going back to sleep
We waited him and he is gains weight  even more than he should.  He is beyond average.
Do u think I need to feed him more at nigh? Although 3 weeks ago he was eating 2-3 at nigh and still wakes up a lot

[Layla]

I would feed him again at the 5ish am wake up, its ok for him to have up to 3 night feeds, he's still only little and I personally don't think the weight has much to do with whether he can sleep through or not. If he's up and happy, you don't need to do shh/pat, let him practice putting himself back to sleep, if you know what I mean.

How often is he eating during the day now?

Are you attempting wake to sleep at 25mins? Wake to sleep is about stirring the baby and not actually waking him up. So you could try gently stroking his cheek but I don't think it will work if the A times are too long/too short. A nap 1.5hrs is considered to be restorative but I would only have tired another 30mins to extend a nap if it was 30mins long because I just didn't see the point in shh/patting up to another hour, just me though. Some people do the nap extension for the length of the nap.

[Alisa masik]

During the day he eats every 3 hours.  So u saying to feed him twice at night?  At 5 am and 2-3 ?  And then. At 7:30 ?  I thought maybe with time to drop the feeding so he will be able to sleep longer no .? So he won't be depended on food

[Layla]

Try and stretch his feeds to 3.5hrs, he may take more in and reduce night wakings. Yes, I would do a feed at 2-3am (both sides) and you could do one side at 5am and offer the other side at 7.30am and then you could count the 3.5hrs from 7.30am.

I still think he's awake for too long some periods.... if he's only had a 30min nap in the morning, he should really be going down within 2hrs (even less at this age) for the next nap.

[Alisa masik]

I will try that.  I'm despered    In the morning we used to have 1:20 before the nap and then 1:30,1:45,2.  In all variations he still napping only 30 min,   In the morning he doesn't seem tired at all.  I can't seem to change it.

[Florena49]

Hi

I think u need to stick with whatever your doing, have a plan and do it for a few days, if u keep changing it will just be confusing for your LO

So say your LO is 4 month by now so ur routine could look something like this

WU 5.30 eat
7.30 sleep
9 eat
 Etc

So 2hours A time and eating every 3.5 hours. And observe how LO is for the next few days.

[Alisa masik]

Hi.  Trying to extend his feed time to 3:30.   This night we feed at 1 and 5. He haven't gone to sleep till 7:30. When we finally got him up.  All this time tried to sshh and pat him.
Maybe should I go back to putting him down to sleep at 7:30-7 at nigh ? Instead of 6:30 ? Pm  Maybe it will prolong or just stick yo the routine we have?

[Florena49]

Thats absolutely normal 2 feeds in the night at this age. 
Can u post your EASY, what are u aiming for?
What time do u want to start the day?and what time does LO actually wake? I would really stick to the same routine for a week or so otherwise your LO never hets a chance to adjust

[Layla]

If he was sleeping better with a later bedtime, then yes, go back to your old bedtime. Babies generally do better on 11-12hrs of sleep at night and in your earlier posts, you said he woke at 5.30am and so an earlier bedtime was my suggestion, to help him not be awake for over 2hrs before bedtime, which is too long for his age.

How are you doing shh/pat?

[Alisa masik]

Way it's a horrible circle. U right about the early bed time it works good at the evening cause his last nap of 30 min is at 4-4:30.  So by the time it's 7:30 it's very late for him and he is so cranky.  But we can't continue waking up at 5:30.  It's crazy.  So maybe to try again to move back at 7:30 bedtime???
Tonight he woke at 1,3,5 .ate at 1 and 5.  Since 5 till now 7:30. He is up. Only now took him from the crib.  All this time tried to get him back to sleep, leave him for a wile to bubble but he begins to cry so agin try to shh and patt.
I swaddle him in a blanket give him a paci. Tap him on the back and making sound of shhh. In the back round we have rain noise on the iPad to help with noise.

[amayzie]

How are you going now honey?

[Alisa masik]

Hi , we'll it's still the same today he woke at 5:20 and didn't go back to sleep althought I tried    , I now feed him twice at nigh. The last is at 5, he eats and sometimes after 30 min go s back to sleep.  But usually he stays up.    The naps during the day are the same : 30 min in the morning, sometimes 1:30-2 or just 40 min in the noon and then last nape 40 min again. 
We had one teeth that came out few days ago but he didn't seem to mind very much. So I don't think there is a connection.
The thing that changed in the last 2 weeks ; now he can't go alone to sleep at the evening and it takes long :40 min to go to sleep with shhh and patt.   
If u have anything to recommend about the early morning that we haven't tried ; I will be happy

[Layla]

How long is his last A, between the last nap and bedtime? Maybe he's not tired enough (or overtired) by bedtime?

[Alisa masik]

it really changes all the time because some days he has a 40 min nap till 4 - 4:30 and ome days he wakes at 3 and doesnt go for a nap at all till 6:30 bed time/
today horrible night : woke 10'10:30 but resettle and went back to sleep' ' 1 - woke and fed for 30 min' 3- woke ' cried a lot without coming dow' finaly at 4:10  feed him again, after 15 min he went to sleep. woke totally at 6:40 crying hysterically/ tried to resettle till 7.
then started the day. maybe the teeth bothers him so at nigh we gave him some gel for the gums.