schedule & nursing prop issues

[zportiss]

I originally posted this in the bf area but realized its more appropriately placed here so i deleted it from bf and reposted here!

Hello, I'm so glad I found this forum! The information is so comprehensive!

My lo is a "touchy" 5 months old and has been napping very poorly since the newborn haze wore off. We are ebf on demand and lately I have been nursing her to sleep & then holding her for her naps because i am desperate to get her some naps.  I'm also moving her bedtime up every night and have moved it the last few weeks from 10pm to 7:30 currently (plus another hour for daylight savings). I'm very concerned about the cumulative sleep deprivation from previously only sleeping 9-10 hrs at night with poor naps, some days with no naps.  She's also cutting teeth for the last week. In the last month she started waking after 20 min of being placed in her crib so now I'm holding her through her naps and getting much longer naps. She also is increasing her night wakings and it seems she is habitually waking and nursing back to sleep as a crutch since she immediately falls back to sleep once put to breast and does not eat vigorously, slowing her suck rate very quickly.  I have read all the stickies on sleep props & gentle removal, EASY and night waking.  I'm sort of confused on which to focus on first. Removing the nursing prop at night during her initial night sleep? Or schedule?  My instincts tell me to focus on gentle removal so that my little sleepy angel gets her much needed sleep and since I can't really do EASY if I have to nurse right before sleep. I'm prepared to implement the schedule and do whatever it takes (staying home & respecting the schedule for 1-21-80 weeks), I'm just not sure which step to do first.

Every day her feeds & naps are different and always have been but I think even more so lately because I'm constantly changing her bedtime. Here's a sample of our crazy schedule:

Brielle's schedule last 2 days:
 
3/20
Night feed at 12am &  5:45
Up at 8
sleep Feed at 9:45-10:10 unable to stay asleep while holding
Bottle at 12
Nap from 12:15-2:15 held by grandma
Feed at 2:15
Sleep feed at 4-4:15 unable to stay asleep while holding
Feed at 6
7:15 - Start bedtime routine
7:30 - nurse and sleeping while nursing and totally asleep within 10
11:10 wake escalate to crying unable to self soothe, nurse, sleeping soundly within 5 min, place back in crib


3/21
3:45 am - wake escalate to crying unable to self soothe, nurse, sleeping soundly within 5 min, placed back in crib

4:15 wake, escalate to crying, rocked to sleep standing within 10 min

6:30 wake, escalate to crying, nurse (decent feed) side lying in bed until 7, co sleep until 7:15 - awake

7:15 play time

8:45 started to get cranky & yawn, tried to put in crib with soothing mobile, cried, tried to rock to sleep for 5-10 min, escalate to crying along w rooting,

9:00 nursed to sleep, (hold for nap because she wakes if I put her in her crib within 20 min) sleeping within 5-10 min, woke & rooted at 9:20, 9:40, & 10:00, 10:15 nursed for few min, continue sleep until 10:50

10:50 playtime

12:20 nurse

12:40 active time
1:30 cried intensely in car ride to store (this seems to be getting more frequent & I believe it may be because she gets tired in the car and wants to nurse to sleep) definite sleep cues in store
2:00 cried halfway home, then fell asleep in car, removed from car seat and rocked back to sleep (doesn't stay asleep in car seat once removed from car). Resettled 2x while holding, woke up crying and began rooting, unable to settle at 3:20

3:20 nursed sleep feed (eyes closed while nursing)

3:40 active time

5:00 - seemed cranky and maybe tired, put in crib for cat nap w white noise and soothing ocean skin, tried shush pat, complained but not crying for 25 min, escalated to crying
5:30 gave up & nursed - sleep feed and still sleeping... yikes, bedtime is in less 2 hrs! Hopefully this late nap will not hinder her falling asleep at tonight


My goal is a well rested baby who can self soothe at night. I don't mind nursing to sleep, but I understand it's now a sleep prop and it really is causing a problem, combined with a scheduling catastrophe. Any advice on how to best manage my lo's sleep issues and where to start is much appreciated!

[creations]

Hi there and welcome to BW

I would aim for a 4hr routine, with E every 4 hrs and an awake time of 2hrs 30.  If you try to put LO down for a nap too early you may have more difficulty with getting her to sleep and weaning the feed to sleep habit.
So something like
WU and E 7.00
A 2hr 30
S 9.30 - 11.00
E 11.00
A 2hr 30
S 1.30 - 3.00
E 3.00
A 2hr
S 5.00 - 5.30 CN
A 2hr
E 7.00
S BT 7.30
DF 10/11pm

This is guidance only though. If your LO can nap 2hrs then E will come a bit later and count the A from wake up time. With 2 long naps of 2hrs you may be able to move towards dropping the CN and perhaps putting her to bed a little earlier (the 7pm E can come early to allow for a 7pm BT).

WRT the feed to sleep prop you may like to post on the props board for specific support. Initially for gentle removal you can give her full feed at the E time, then during nap wind down offer her the comfort of the breast to calm but also introduce shush/pat if you have not already. Try to take her off the breast as her sucking reduces and before she falls asleep. Continue to shush/pat in arms and then in the cot until she is in deep sleep (at least 20 mins).  If she cries hard you should pick up to calm her with shush/pat, I wouldn't advise re-offering the breast as this will reinforce the prop.

hope this helps

[zportiss]

Thanks for your response! Regarding the 4 hr schedule if she seems tired after her first A of the day after only 1.5 hrs  prior to the 2.5 hr mark is it reasonable that this first A be shorter, or do you think that indicates she needs a longer night sleep?

[creations]

Many LOs like a shorter first A time (mine liked his first A to be super long), it's an individual thing. So if she really needs a shorter first A then yes do that, however I would say to be aware that 1.5hrs is very short at this age and trying to put her down too early will be very hard, can lead to crying and short naps just as OT can.  I always preferred an OT nap to an UT one, at least then he would go to sleep.  If your LO is showing sleepy signals at 1hr 30 at this age i would try to distract with a change in environment or activity to extend the A time to at least 2hrs.
After a really good sleep LOs, like adults, can yawn and appear sleepy. Do you remember (pre baby obviously) getting a long lie in then feeling really dopey and tired after getting up?
The 'test' for liking a short first A time really is more that LO goes to sleep well and stays asleep for a full nap - which doesn't appear to be happening for your LO so I'm not sure she really wants her first A that short.
hth

[zportiss]

Thanks so much! I'll try to keep her busy this morning for a longer A.  Hopefully this will help her nap better! 

I hope you don't mind if i  ask a few more questions! I'm just tying to figure this sleeping out

 She started waking up early at 6:15 the last two mornings. She played in her crib quietly until 6:45 & then fit fussy  cried so I nursed her.  I've been moving her bedtime up nightly 15 minutes trying to find the best one. Last night she was a lot tougher to get down for bed when I started her bt routine  at 6:45. 

Should I move her by routine start back to 7?

How should I handle the early waking?

Do I calculate her nap from 6:15 or from when I get her out of her crib?
Ty!

[creations]

It looked like she went to sleep well at 7.30pm on your EASY, if that's right and if that is when you begin your WD at 7 then I would go back to that for now.
Until you are on something of an established routine it's quite hard to say whether the earlier mornings are because you moved BT or if they are because the first A time is way too short.  When a nap comes too early LOs can start waking up from their night sleep earlier in anticipation of that first nap being early.  It could also be a whole number of other things, hunger, developmental, she's getting too cold or warm at that time, a noise outside the house, almost anything can wake them in the early hours when sleep is lighter.  I would treat it as a NW/NF as it looks like she normally has a later morning WU.

[zportiss]

Thanks so much for your previous response

So I have been trying to have at least 2 hours A time before her first nap to deal with the early morning wake times.  These last two days have been totally messed up as far her schedule goes. Yesterday she was awake from 4-5:30 instead of settling back to sleep so we extended her night sleep until 7:45 from the usual 7am.  Then she had two 30 min naps in arms (waking once placed in crib) and then a 2 hour nap in her crib.  We still have the continued nursing prop I am consistently trying to break. Now I am having a tough time even nursing her to sleep at night and when she wakes at around 4 or 5 am for her first feeding which I believe is from unlatching her repeatedly to break the nursing prop.

Today she woke at her 5 am feeding, but then was unable to settle her back to sleep. (same as yesterday). She nursed off and on until 6:45 but was pretty alert from 6am on.  I got her up from bed at 6:45 since it seemed pointless to try to get her to sleep for just 15 minutes when her wake time is 7am.  She's been fussy all morning with very tired eyes and lots of yawning

My question is, today, or any other day when she wakes early, do I calculate her first nap from her 5 am feeding? Or from when we got out of bed and had active time?   Today she dozed in and out of nursing sleep until 6 but she wasn't fully asleep.

I just want to try to repair the day and get back on track instead of perpetuating the sleep problem....sigh

Also, when she naps for only 30 minutes, should I shorten her A time or stick with the 2 hours?

[creations]

If she's been dozing on and off I'd try to get as close to a full A time from the point of properly waking (ie 6.45 when you got her up) as you can, possibly just a little reduced but not dramatically or you are working with another UT nap.
Sleeping in arms for 30 mins then waking when put in the cot is common when there is AP/props.  If you need to APOP a nap to keep her rested I would plan to do the whole nap on you rather than trying to transfer.

You can post on the props board for support with the feeding to sleep.