Author Topic: 10wk old short awake times and hard to settle... is this normal?  (Read 1317 times)

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Offline Honeymonster

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ok so im becoming a serial poster but please bear with me.. I know I ramble so have highlighted my key ponderings in bold to try and be more clear!

So we've been making some progress with my 10 wk old (two weeks overdue and about 13.5lb probably now) im managing to extend naps through the day by staying at home and doing pretty much nothing else! ive also invested in a love to dream swaddle up as she fights out of all arms down swaddles and it seems to be helping with transitioning past 45min cycle and my back is thankfull as im not needing to lean over and pin her little arms down.

we've still never had a perfect day nap wise as things like explosive poos just before sleep time (meaning having to change etc) can throw it all haywire but she has had a few good long 2 hr naps the past couple of days.

The thing is she seems to only be able to handle very short awake times and these get shorter as the day goes on until by the early eve catnap shes just been too wired to settle down and ends up awake the whole rest of the evening and through to her next E time. This has also meant we've not been able to manage a good bedtime routine as by bedtime shes been up for 3+ hours..ive been getting into some accidental parenting (on purpose) and ending up feeding her more in the eves as shes just been so unsettled and wont take a dummy- I know this is bad but she cries so much I think shes hungry again.would you say a good bed time routine is more or less important than getting her to sleep quicker when OT.. ie. if shes missed her nap and already wired should we just keep trying to get her to sleep or stop and bath, massage etc at bedtime even though it means taking her to a different room and doing more stimulating activities?

 like this morning after sleeping 8.30- 8.30 with one hour awake during the night she was still showing sleepy signs this morning after 20 mins of being awake.. I thought surely not- maybe she was just still waking up, so stretched her A time slightly to start wind down after 30mins, had her in the cot 35mins after awakening and it was too late and she was hard to settle. ..
 

Could this be due to her sleep debt from us only just managing to start getting longer naps the past few days?

is it normal for a baby of this age to only handle such shore A times -luckily shes a fast and efficient eater or we'd be stuffed.. on a good day when shes not OT i'd still say the Most she can handle is 30-40 mins awake then back in the cot and asleep before 1hr. this is making it very hard to ever leave the house since she wont sleep if we are out.
also how long should I let her cry for in the cot as pat shh doesn't really work with her and picking her up stops the crying but just wakes her up more, she just starts pushing off your chest and looking around at anything she can

I'm committed to making this work and she is improving every day but people seem to think i'm mad and nap obsessed. even my HV keeps telling me I need to get out more and meet other mums etc.. but I think i'm resigning myself to the fact that for my LO's happiness -sleep is going to be very important! we are still going short walks in the sling during A time once a day to get out of the house but since im seeing real progress with naps im going to stick with this in the house until shes better rested then look at maybe reworking it to have one nap a day out of the house if possible.

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Re: 10wk old short awake times and hard to settle... is this normal?
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2014, 08:00:00 am »
Hi there. Sounds like you're working really hard at these naps!

To be honest she sounds UT to me. 30 mins is an incredibly short A time and the resistance to nap (crying) and being hard to settle  sounds more like she just knows she doesn't want to go to sleep yet.
Mine was also 2 weeks over and I found his A times and other developmental areas were more like his due date rather than his birth date, so at 10 weeks he was prob on a routine more suited to a 12 week old where as you have your LO on a routine with shorter A time than a new born.  You may not think a 10 week old can know her own needs but at this age mine made huge efforts to communicate his needs to me, took me a while to figure out what he was saying!  I'd planned all naps in the travel cot/play pen in the family room up to 6 months (following SIDS guides to have LO sleep in the room I was in) but at 10 weeks he suddenly refused to nap (he was already an independent sleeper, I did WD and put him down awake), instead of going to sleep he just screamed his head off. After about 2 days of this in desperation I took him to his night bed (in my bedroom) where he instantly quieted down, I put him in his bed and he smiled and went instantly to sleep! I was pretty shocked I can tell you!

how long should I let her cry for in the cot
Please don't let her cry. At this age she will burn too many calories which will just make her hungry.
pat shh doesn't really work with her and picking her up stops the crying but just wakes her up more, she just starts pushing off your chest and looking around at anything she can
This sounds like typical UT behaviour. IMO she is crying to communicate that she needs you to get her up, and once she is up in your arms she is happy and interested in the world.  Shush/pat will not sooth an UT baby to sleep, more likely it will frustrate her because she knows you are trying to get her to sleep when she doesn't want that.

would you say a good bed time routine is more or less important than getting her to sleep quicker when OT.. ie. if shes missed her nap and already wired should we just keep trying to get her to sleep or stop and bath, massage etc at bedtime even though it means taking her to a different room and doing more stimulating activities?
Hopefully you can avoid all this by extending her other A times to a reasonable length, spreading her naps across the day and therefore avoiding the 3hr A time before BT. However, to answer your question, with a super long A time and a super OT baby I would skip anything that can be skipped in the BT routine and just get her fed, clean nappy and in bed.  Missing a bath and massage isn't going to ruin your BT routine. Mine hated baths at that age so I topped and tailed, no way could he handle a bath or massage before bed.  Maybe move bath time to another time of day if she is repeatedly OT at BT.

You might not want to hear this but I tend to agree with your HV about getting out. It hard work (at best) and can be soul destroying staying home all day, especially if the majority of that time is spent in a darkened room trying to get your baby to sleep.  I really do think it does everyone good to get out, get sun, get air.  And tbh if you want to ever leave the house then starting some naps in the stroller/sling now are going to be pretty handy later on. Having a LO who won't even CN out and about can feel very restricting indeed.  I found mine slept better when he'd seen some of the world too, babies are such inquisitive little things, eager to learn everything about the world and a certain level of stimulation is needed to help them feel mentally tired enough to sleep.

Many hugs. I know you have your baby's best interests at the centre of all your plans, being concerned about going out or letting her get OT is admirable whilst can also cause some difficulties.
I would increase her A time directly to a minimum of 1hr and over the next few days increase by another 15 mins, hold for 3 days then re-evaluate. She may need an A time of 1hr 20 to 1hr 30 if she sleeps more like a 12 wk old. In any event going too slowly to get those A times up won't be particularly helpful, it perpetuates the problems of UT, fighting naps, short naps and long A times to bed. She need to be tired for each and every nap to reach BT without becoming OT.

hope this helps x


Offline Honeymonster

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Re: 10wk old short awake times and hard to settle... is this normal?
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2014, 15:39:08 pm »
Thanks very much for your response creations this is very interesting! I thnik as we've had a few very OT days and nights I've possibly got a bit obsessed with catching her window and am maybe slightly misreading her signs now. We've been trying to start the wind down on the first sign of tiredness but are maybe misreading this as for her it's normally jerky arms and legs..maybe she's still playing. I tried keeping her up longer for the next nap and she went to sleep easily ten mins from putting her in the cot. Woke up after 45 mins but was clearly still tired.. I tried to resettle but couldn't so got her up and started again. She went down well for next nap but woke after 30mins this time..so ot? I see what you mean about the shh pat only working if she's tired though as sometimes it seems to calm her and sometimes it doesn't others. It's such a juggling act to get it right and so upsetting when she gets totally it and can't settle. Last week she was awake for 8 hours solid one day  as she was so ot and woulnt sleep then I had to take her out in the afternoon an couldn't get out of it so she ended up not sleeping all day! I'll work on extending the a times and see how we get on! And getting out more'!


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Re: 10wk old short awake times and hard to settle... is this normal?
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2014, 17:16:16 pm »
Last week she was awake for 8 hours solid one day
Well I'm not surprised you are concerned about OT then!! That's a shockingly difficult day to manage and well done you for getting through it!
It's very easy to get a bit too focused on avoiding OT and ending up UT. The problem with UT naps is they are short and by the end of the day LO hasn't slept well so does in fact become OT. You see LO OT and think the next day you must keep A time short - it can be a vicious cycle of UT naps and OT BT. You aren't the first to do this and certainly won't be the last. Did it myself for a bit and have seen many mummies here doing the same.


Offline Honeymonster

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Re: 10wk old short awake times and hard to settle... is this normal?
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2014, 18:45:36 pm »
It was a bit if a mammoth day! The thing is she is sooo good and you could easily amuse her all day and people say oh but she's so good and well behaved.. But I can see how tired she is and know there will be major drama by bedtime!
Well tomo is another day and we will start a fresh and see how we go with longer a times.. Often she is up 1hr30 by the time she settles so maybe keeping the a longer and wind down closer to 1.15 ish will be good. This afternoon went pear shaped as I had a visitor but we had two positive  quick settling times so that's good even if naps were short! By the time oh came home I just said 'come on we're going out a walk' as I'd been in all day! She didn't sleep but was more than happy to make cute noises at her hands for 30mins. The other day she talked to a safety pin for ten mins saying oooo oooo oooo and laughing at it! Too cute! I'm really lucky with her and I know naps aren't the be all and end all but I've seen how happy she is on a good day compared to the ot days and would love that for most if not all bedtimes! X

Offline Honeymonster

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Re: 10wk old short awake times and hard to settle... is this normal?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2014, 13:08:27 pm »
Just wanted to let you know that things have been going well since extending the morning A times creations so thanks loads for the advice. I've also decided to chill out a bit and as opposed to totally stressing and getting us both upset by bedtime when she's OT I've just been letting her nurse to sleep sometimes. I know this isn't the best habit to get into but it's making me feel less stressed to know that we have that as a back up if she's really upset instead if hours of screaming. The first two naps of the day she's settling in the cot herself in 10-20mins with no tears and a tiny mantra moan so I'm going to keep working on these then start focusing more on the later ones. But the past few days I've just went out a walk in the afternoons at her fussy time as we'd been sitting in stressing she wasn't sleeping then it was just upsetting both of us so if she's not sleeping anyway she's as well not sleeping in the fresh air I decided! We do seem to be getting a 45min nap followed by a longer nap at lunch.. She always seems hungry sooner in the morning after first nap could this be due to her having a long stretch of less milk overnight? AnywY thanks for taking the time to give us feedback.. She really is a bright and inquisitive little thing so I think she needs the stimulation and I feel bad I've spent so long trying to get her to sleep so soon as I'm freaking out about OT all the time. Plus I've noticed her bedtime creeping earlier again which is good as it had been getting later and later!

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Re: 10wk old short awake times and hard to settle... is this normal?
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2014, 17:36:11 pm »
What a lovely update :) Thank you for taking the time to come back and post that, it is so great to hear :)

I wouldn't worry about feeding to sleep at BT, if you are less stressed then this is a good thing. You can wean later, or may find with an earlier BT and less OT she is more willing to self settle. There is info on the gentle removal plan in the props FAQs when you need it, that is when you decide it is the right time for you to give it a go.  It's also great to hear she is self settling for her first naps too, lovely!

Sounds wonderful that you are getting out, I'm sure it will do both of you lots of good and change the focus of the day, at least a little, from sleep issues.

Not sure why she'd be hungrier in the morning but I'd just follow her lead on that. Do post on the feeding board if you want some advice on that though.
x


Offline Honeymonster

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Re: 10wk old short awake times and hard to settle... is this normal?
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2014, 19:26:45 pm »
Hi creations.. I may be getting ahead of myself here but I've noticed such a difference with my LO from trying to extend the A times a bit (mostly have been doing about 1hr20 unless she has a short nap the we've shortened it a bit) but come evenings we've never been able to get her down for the catnap early eve even trying to nurse to sleep the past few nights she just seems to stay awake and nurse on and off the whole time until bedtime.i was having a look at the sample 3.5hr easy that has a feed at 5.30 and a topup at 7 and wondered if I'd be better just keeping her up (but not nursing) in between which would encourage her to take another big feed again at 7. She can quite easily go 3.5hrs between feeds I'd say. Given that we're not in a specific schedule as we're still tweaking it all do you think it'd do any harm to just try upping her A time to 1.5hrs and try the 3.5hr routine or should I keep going with what I'm doing and adjust slowly. Kike I said she's 10wks(well almost 11now) but 2wks overdue- oh and most nights now she's sleeping a good 7-9hr stretch (10hrs lastnifht) don't know if that's relevant but I suppose says something about her ability to cope for stretches without a feed and she's BF. Thanks x

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Re: 10wk old short awake times and hard to settle... is this normal?
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2014, 08:29:39 am »
If 1hr 20 has been successful, but you are now sometimes getting some short naps then I'd say she'd likely do well on 1hr 30. It's only a 10 min increase and you've been at 1hr 20 at least a few days so it is not too rapid an increase IMO.
Some LOs are ready to shift up to the 3.5 or 4hr EASY earlier than others, and yours may well be one of them :)
It sounds like you are doing a great job of tuning in and observing her changing needs :)

Just watch out for the evening A times getting too long if she's fussing. If you like post a full days EASY and I'll have a look see if I spot anything.