6month old - still doing 2hr EASY

[sarahbears]

Help.....were stucking in a 2hr EASY during the day! I'm struggling to extend my DD A times.  And when I extend the A time she still wakes on the 2 hr mark and ends up OT by the end of the day.

About 3 weeks ago she would sleep through the night 7 to 7. And then do an hour up and an hour sleep.

I have tried to extend her A times by 15min. The first few times resulted in her sleeping longer. But now she will wake at the 2hr mark for E. Which means her S time suffers.

She is now also going down for the night earlier,  around 5 or 6. Which results in her waking earlier.  Luckly she has settled back to sleep after a feed.  I'm not sure if this time change is the result of the sun going down a bit earlier now we are headed into winter.

How do I go about extending the cycle,  or should I be leaving her schedule alone and still put her down for sleep after an hour A when she show tired signs. 

This is my second. My DS was a lot easier to extend!
Oh and she's BF

And she had silent reflux but seem to grow out of it by 3 months.

[Buntybear]

So she is wanting to feed every 2 hours in the day? Have you introduced solids? Could you post your EASY?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I'm guessing she has a bit of a snacking habit going on (unless the reflux is still bothering her?) as even a bf baby would most likely be able to do a 3/3.5 or even 4 hr EASY by 6 months depending on baby of course!  As for showing tired signs after an hour, by this age the classic tired signs can also be signs of boredom &/or just learned tiredness (ie she is so used to sleeping at the hour mark that she shows signs even if she could go longer). This link shows average A times and she is well below that for her age.

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

[*Ali*]

How long after the NF is she waking to start the day? I'm just wondering if she isn't hungry on wake up because of the late NF and so isn't starting the day on a full feed and is then snacking.

I think the major issue is the mega short A times. At 6mo most LOs would be on A time well over 2hrs and more likely closer to 3hrs. I'd keep extended in her A times and see if she will go to sleep at the 2hr mark (just to start with) without a BF and then keep adding 10-15 mins every few days. If she is awake from the nap too long before the feed then she is likely to want feeding earlier. If you can get her sleeping longer for the last part of the time before her next feed then she is more likely to go longer.

[sarahbears]

Yes I have started her on solids, 2 meals so far. Morning and night.

If she does a night feed she will usually go 2 to 3 hrs.  Last night she slept through again.

I agree that I need to extend her A times. Do I extend all A times in the day, or work on one? And by how much should I extend it?

I have been etending it by 15 minutes most A times, and it end up eating into her S time and she still wakes on the 2 hour mark.  Should I be trying to keep her awake longer to try and push her over that?

The tired signes I look for are red eyebrows and jerky movements.......but definitely could be learned tiredness.

I know she get frustrated at times as she hasn't quite learnt to sit by herself and she desperately wants to crawl.

[*Ali*]

I would keep her awake at least 2hrs. Feed her again after an hour if you have to but I would t be putting her to sleep before that.

[sarahbears]

Thanks Ali for tbe quick reply.

This is where I start to get a bit frustrated........it doesn't seem to work as expected.   So far the day looks like:

E: 6:40am
A: 6:50am
S: 8:25am

E: 9am


So her awake time was about 1hr 45, but she only slept for 35 minutes,    so only added 20 minutes to the cycle even though she was awake 45minutes longer, and now she's had less sleep.

Do I stick with trying to keep her up for 2hrs?

[*Ali*]

Yes I would because 2hrs is still really short for her age.

No chance of resettling after the 35 min sleep?  You'd probably have more chance if she was OT but maybe not after such a short A time.

[sarahbears]

Ok, I'll keep going.

I've never been able to get her to sleep but patting, shhing etc.  She's a self settler - blesing at times, frustrating at others!. If I try and settler her she just gets frustrated. Sometimes she puts herself back to sleep if left long enough. I'll leave her a bit longer if she wakes earlynext time.

[*Ali*]

Ok, if she wakes early and isn't crying I would leave her to see if she settles back down. Even if she doesn't it is more restful than being up.

[sarahbears]

E: 6:40am
A: 6:50am
S: 8:25am

E: 9am
A: 9:10am

Solids 10am

S: 10:40am
Woke at 11:20 but went back to sleep within 5 minutes to 12:45pm

E: 12:45
A: 12:55
S: 2:35pm
Only slept for 30 minutes. Left her there for 15 minutes, but she wasn't going back to sleep

E: 3:25pm
A: 3: 35

Solids: 5pm

E: 5:50pm
S: 6pm

The last awake time was longer than I wanted, but due to needing to feed my DS (2yr) I had to keep her up until my DH was home.  I did try and put her down after 1hr and 15min, but she wouldn't settle so I got her up again.


So about a  30min nap, 2hr and another 30min nap  And only 5 feeds today compared to the average of 7.

I'm hoping she'll sleep through the night as usual.

Please tell me we're headed in the right direction!

[Shdef]

Have you tried and stay with her during a nap? And resettle on the first stir? We never have any luck resettling when wide awake, but it does work when he isn't awake properly.

[sarahbears]

Thanks Steffi. I've never been able to settle or resettle her. But if I keep getting short naps I'll try it. Although it may have to be on a weekend when my DH is home as I don't think I will be able to distract my DS for long enough

[sarahbears]

She's done a short nap again this morning.  I'm starting to wonder if she is snacking, or not taking enough at a feed.  I felt like I had more milk left after her last feed.  I haven't got her up yet, been 15mins since she woke and she looks like she is tdying to go back to sleep, but sucking her fingers like mad, which is what she does when hungry........she may have gone back to sleep.

Will stretching the time between feeds help stop snacking?  I didn't want to go down the path of feeding her twice in a chcle as I feel that will  make things worse.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Yes stretching the feeds will help because if she goes longer she will take a fuller feed next time which in turn will help her last again.

[sarahbears]

Thanks MSE, hopefully she will get it and I don't end up with Mastitis

Today started with an early wake up at 5am.  I fed her and put her back to bed. It took her a little bit but she went back to sleep

E: 5:00am

E: 7:40
A: 7:50am
S: 9:20am - woke after 30mins but resettled to sleep after 15mins and slept another 30mi

E: 10:45
A: 10:55
Solids: 11:50am
S: 12:45pm - woke after 50 mins, but went back to sleep after about 5min for 1hr and 10mins

E: 2:55pm
A: 3:05pm
S: 5:15pm - only 35 minutes

E: 5:55
Solids: 6:15
E: 6:44pm
S: 7:15pm

Getting better. She seems to be adapting to the change ok.  I'm hoping the afternoon/ evenings will get a little easier.  Was trying to fit so much into the last hour and she was tired.

[*Ali*]

Would she just eat solids when she wakes from the last CN and the have a BF at BT? That is a lot to fit in the last a time otherwise.

[sarahbears]

Hi Ali,  she had two small BF in that last wake up. I never use to feed her before putting her down for the night.  I'll see how I go when we get knto a bit more of a predictable routine......if she's only going to be up for an hour at the end of the day I'll only feed her once.


Feel like we've gone backwards today....her sleep was terrible and she woke over night.  So the day went lkie this :

E: 3:45am

E: 6:40am
A: 6:50
Solids 7:40am
S: put her down at 8:30, but didn't sleep to 8:40. Slept for 25mins, woke for 10 mins, slept for 15 mins more then woke again.  Left her in the cot until she called out.
So only about 45min sleep time.


E: 10:05am
A: 10:15am
S: put her down at 11:45 but didn't slept til 12. Slept for 30 mins, woke for 10, then slept for another 40.
So about an hour and 10min sleep time

E: 1:20pm
A: 1:30
S: put her down at 2:45 as she was really crank, she wouldn't settle so put in the pram and took her, DH and DS to park.  She slept for a bit, but probably less than an hour

E: 4:35pm
A:4:45pm
Solids: 5:15pm
E 6:00pm
S: 6:15.


Does it look like I need to change anything to get her to sleep longer? I am assuming she should be sleeping for about 1.5hrs for the first two naps and possibly a little shorter for the last one.

[*Ali*]

What is your plan at the moment? I still think she needs to be kept up much longer before her first nap. Looks like she was UT for that first nap. Then she got OT as the day went on because she didn't have a single restorative nap as she hadn't been awake long enough since the last nap. I would make sure you don't put her down before 2hrs for any of her naps and then extend that to 2hr15 for another few days before increasing again to 2hr30ish. I think you just need to take the plunge hun. One of her A times above was only 1hr25. That is a typical A time for a 3mo. It really is no wonder she couldn't fall asleep when you tried in the cot at 2.45pm 

Average at his age would be two long naps (e.g. 1.5hrs). Some LOs may also have a CN of 30-40 mins if moved late to 2 naps and/or are high sleep needs.

Normally babies get milk immediately before BT so they go down full and last longer overnight. I was just thinking if you could distract her with a little solid food after her last CN then she may well take a full feed at BT.

[Buntybear]

She seems to wake a lot at the 25/30 min mark - have you tried going in at 20 mins and seeing what is happening? You could try holding her through the jolts (HTTJ) or just putting a hand on her to settle her so she doesn't fully awake. Ot even wake to sleep (W2S) to see if you can get her out of that cycle?

[creations]

Does it look like I need to change anything to get her to sleep longer?

Here's a reminder of the average A times
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
At 6 months a LO would be staying awake and active for between 2hr 30 and 3hrs.  Low A times will perpetuate the short naps as she is just not tired enough to sleep well.  I agree with Ali to keep her up a minimum of 2hrs, then increase to 2hrs 15 and then 2hrs 30. This should take no more than a week to achieve. If you delay on this the average A time increases again and you'll still be playing catch up with A times and UT naps.  The A times for a 7 month old can be 3hrs 15 or even more, so you see if you go slow she will be 7 months and still on 2hrs or 2hr 30 A time instead of 3hr or more. The UT cycle will continue.

Here's a link for W2S and HTTJ as BB mentioned. It's a great method, but unlikely to be particularly successful on too short an A time. Whilst increasing the A times using this method can teach LO to transition into another sleep cycle.
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
The description says to go in at 30 mins but as BB advises you can go in earlier to catch her before she stirs.

I also agree on bringing the solids earlier, to after the CN. Many LOs prefer solids earlier and a good milk feed at BT.

hope this helps

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Honestly I think the key to longer naps is more A time...average for 6.5 months is 2:45/3:15 & unless lo is super high sleep needs I cant see needing 2 naps and a catnap for much longer, if even now. It may take a bit for her to get used to but I imagine you would get 2 more restful naps that way than 3 naps interupted by wake ups.

[sarahbears]

Thank you all so much for your feedback. I really appreciate the support.

Ali, my plan was to get her settled on a 2hr activity and then push out the time from there, but as creations points out if I take too long to do it we'll be further behind.

I guess I've had a thing about going to or over the 2hr A time as it was her usual feed time and I thought it might cause a 'problem' trying to get her to settle for sleep when she may be expecting a feed.

Part of the problem of the first 30 min wake ip yesterday was my son being particularly noisy right at that time, we were trying to keep him quite, especially at that point,  but it didn't work.

When I put her down at 2:45 I was sYing to myself ' I shouldn't be doing this she needs to be up longer'. But I couldn't get her to be calm when she was up, Itried her with her favorite toy, and even just giving her a quite cuddle.  I thought she might be so OT that she might have a longer nap to catch up.

I'm a bit reluctant to drop the feed before solids as we have already drop 2 feeds in the day......and she has been waking for BF overnight....last night it was sometime after 11pm.......or is it a sign of OT. She also woke around 4am, but settled herself back to sleep before I could get up.

I'll aim to do A time of at least 2hr, 2hr 15min if I can.

Also, is there any info somewhere on managing 'conflicting' nap times to get out of the house........not quite sure how I will get out where her ' ideal' schedule, and my sons.

Thanks again

[*Ali*]

The longer her A times the more time you will have to get out

Maybe skip the solid feed in the last A time then. You co old reintroduce it when her last A time is longer maybe?

[sarahbears]

Just a quick update. I've kept her up for 2.15.

She stirred on the 15min mark and settked quickly.  Then at the 30 min mark she stretched o e arm and seemed to settled......then started to suck her fingers and then started stretching more then playing with the blanket and now she's wide awake.  I'm going to leave her for longer now to see if she'll go back to sleep.

She was definitely tired when I put her down, red eyebrows, wouldn't hold eye contact, jerky movements.

I'll try option 2 for the W2S, I'm assuming this looks like habitual waking rather than UT.  Although I wonder if she's hungry.

[Buttonbobs]

That still sounds like UT to me, and that would fit in with a 2hr15 A time, which as others have said above, is very short still. Don't give up yet, keep stretching those A times and you may not even need W2S. The waking probably is in part habitual but you won't have much luck with W2S while the naps are UT.

Be strong

[sarahbears]

I understand that the A time doesn't match the 'recommend' A time for her age, but she has more than DOUBLED her A time in the last few days.  And that's what I'm working on increasing.

You're telling me that if a baby can't focus on a face they are UT?  Can you point me to that information, cause I thought that was an OT sign.

Doesn't being OT also cause a baby to have issues sleeping?

When her A time was only an hour, she'd sleep a full hour, and then sleep through the whole night.  Now during the day she's NOT getting a solid hours sleep during the day.....and she's waking at night.

Yes I'm struggling

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

It is entirely possible that when she was having those short naps that she was just crashing out at night - my DD3 had really short naps from 4-16 weeks and sttn the whole time, once she sorted out her naps she started having more nw's.

Tbh by this age tired signs were not reliable for any of my kids! For sure the huge leap in A time will be an adjustment but I would persevere as it really should result in more restorative naps. Oh there is also a growth spurt around this age, and then always those developmental leaps that can cause nw's too.

[creations]

There are quite a lot of signs that can appear OT but actually be due to UT. Mine showed signs that could easily be interpreted as OT when he was UT and the only answer was longer A times.
Sleep habits can change rapidly too so what seems to be a settled routine can very quickly go right off track if the tweaks aren't made rapidly.

As Naomi says, stay strong.

[*Ali*]

They do get OT when extending A times which is why we say to do it gradually. So one longer A time won't solve her napping issues.  That will take time. Her body will be tired with the longer A times because it is used to sleeping little and often right now. A one hour nap is still not a restorative nap because it wouldn't allow her to complete 2 full sleep cycles.  If you think she may be hungry then I would feed her more.  You could offer milk in a sippy with the solid food perhaps or mix the milk in with the food if it is cereal or puree for example.

[sarahbears]

Ok, today looked like:

NF: 11:15pm

She woke at 4am, but settled herself without a feed

Woke at 6:30

E: 6:40
A: 6:50
Solids 7:45
S: 8:45 to 9:25,   took a while for her to resettle 10:10am to 11:10
So 1hr and 40min sleep over 2hr 30min


E: 11:15
A: 11:25
S: 1:35pm to 2:05pm, 2:15 to 2:30, 2:35 to 2:40, 2:45 to 2:50, 2:55 to 3.
So one 30 minute nap, and 30min of broken snoozing.........not sure what was going on, the house was quite.  I was going to go in and try the W2S, but my son woke up from his nap just before I needed to go in and my husband wasn't around to keep him distracted.

E: 3:05pm
A: 3:15
Solids 4:15
S: 5:30 - 6:00
Took advantage of her 30 min stir to give her a final feed for the night.  In the past if she has been napping at this time she tends to go down for the night.  Don't know if it was the right thing to do.

E: 6:00pm
Nappy change and straight back to bed

Is W2S the thing to try for her naps, or still longer A times? 

She can self settle her self and I worry if I start interfering I might create a habit

If W2S, with the second option of stirring her before the transition,  could I just try stroking her cheek and leave?  I'm hoping I'll have my husband about tomorrow so that I can try it, but the rest of the week will be just me, so a bit wary of starting something I can't follow through with.

Justed edited to add my apology for this mornings post. Finding this process a bit frustrating.  I thought she would sleep at least an hour straight after a longer A time as she was already able to sleep an hour. Makes me feel like we're going backwards and I'm doing the wrong thing or taking the wrong approach.

[Buttonbobs]

Hugs honey, no need to apologise. We're not there dealing with the immediate frustration and tiredness. But we have all been there before! We do understand. Just remember that it can take a few days for an LO to adjust to new A times and as you need to adjust quite a lot there may well be some disruption until you find the right A times. But it will be worth it!! Xxx

[*Ali*]

For the next few day I would keep A times where they are now (around 2hr15-25 from eyes open to eyes closed) to give her body time to adjust.

I think it is great that she is settling herself back to sleep when she wakes mid nap. That is a valuable skill.

[sarahbears]

No real update for today.

She woke overnight at 12:30

She didn't nap well after her first A time. She was up for 2hr and 15min.  She slept for 40min and then couldn't go back to sleep, but stay in bed for 1hr 30min. We ended up going out and stuffed her day up a bit.  But on a good note, the last nap of the day was 30min, a brief wake up and then 1hr and 30min.   

See how it goes tomorrow

[sarahbears]

Finally, I feel like we're getting there, a fairly good day today

Slept through the night

Woke at 5:45

E: 6am
A: 6:10am
Solids 7am
S:  8:15 to 9:30, then napped on and off til 10

E: 10am
A: 10:10
S:  12:30 to 2:15, then napped on and off til 3

E: 2:50pm
A: 3:00pm
Solids 4pm
S: 5:10 to 5:40 - happy with only 30 min as I worried she might go down for the night. Put her down earlier as I stuffed up the time, thought it was later.

E: 6:10pm
A: 6:20pm
S:7pm

The end of the day needs a little tweaking,   I finding I'm having to work out how to manage her depending on where her times fall by the end.

Gone from BF her about 7 times a day to only 4 today

And best of all, she only stirred at the 30min mark. No waking, and no intervention required!

[creations]

Great news 
much improved naps and only 4 milk feeds! What a difference.

The end of the day may be messy for a while until you drop the CN. As the A times go up the naps come later in the day and help to close the gap between waking up from the second nap and BT. Early BT is helpful when you first drop the CN.  Generally you'd be looking a t a 3hr A time to drop the CN so you are not there just yet but have it in your mind.

[Buttonbobs]

that is a good day - keep up the good work

[*Ali*]

Looking good. You could probably even have done a slightly later BT (assuming you would prefer a slightly later WU) but definitely an improvement I think.