Hard to settle as day goes on - please help with EASY

[Bunny mom]

I am sleep training my 19 week- old bb. This is her EASY from day 6-10. I see a little improvement. But the same pattern like before ST arise. It's harder to settle her as the day goes on.
This is already day 10 and I feel so sad! Everytime she cries, I feel like thorn in my heart. Please help me with this. What awake time is good for her? I have a feeling with wrong awake time, she will become very angry and it makes her harder to fall asleep.
One more problem is her wake-up time and bedtime is not consistent. I let her sleep as long as she wants because I think all the ST makes her exhausted.

Day 6
Wu: 8
E: 9
A time (from open to close eyes): 1h40
Wd from  9.35 – sleep right away with no s/p - sleep from 9.40 – 11.10 – (1h 30minutes)

E: 12.30
A time: 2h5
Wd: 13.05 - s/p for 10 minutes - sleep from 13.15 – 15.05 (minutes) (1h50minutes)

E: 15.50
A time: 1h55
Wd from 16.50 - s/p 7  minutes – sleep from 17.00 – 17.45 (45 minutes)

E: 16.30
A time: 3 hour
Bedtime: Wd from 19.20  – s/p , pupd for 1h15m -  sleep at  20.45

Nw: 5.30 am
Nap time: hours
Sleep time: hours

Day 7
Wu: 7.40
E: 8.40
A time (from open to close eyes): 1h45
Wd from  9.15 – s/p  - sleep from 9.25 – 11.35 – (2h 10minutes)  (jolt and open her eyes at 20 minutes mark, sp for her to back to sleep)

E: 12.10
A time: 2h5
Wd: 13.30 - s/p for 7 minutes - sleep from 13.40 – 14.25  (45minutes) (jolt and open her eyes at 5, 10, 20 minutes mark, sp for her to back to sleep) (she smiles at me when waking at 45m and show no sign of wanting to sleep more)

E: 15.50
A time: 2h20
Wd from 16.05 - s/p 40 minutes – sleep from 16.50 – 17.10 (20 minutes) (not sure if she was sleeping or not. after so much of crying, she closes her eyes and sometimes whimpers)

E: 16.30
A time: 2h5
Bedtime: Put her down at 18.50  – s/p  for 20 minutes -  sleep at  19.15

Nw: 4.30 am
Nap time: hours
Sleep time: hours

Day 8
Wu: 6.40
E: 7.45
A time (from open to close eyes): 1h45
Wd from  8.10 – s/p 2m  - sleep from 8.15 – 9.50– ( 1h30minutes)  (jolt and open her eyes at 2,3 minutes mark, sp for her to back to sleep)

E: 11.10
A time: 2h15
Wd: 11.40 - s/p for 20 minutes - sleep from 12.05  – 14.00  (1h40 minutes) (waking at 45m, sp for 20 minutes for her to back to sleep)

E: 14.50
A time: 2h20
Wd from 15.45 - s/p 25 minutes – sleep from 16.20 – 16.30 (10 minutes) (wake crying but no back to sleep)

E: 18.00
A time: 1h45
Bedtime: Put her down at 18.15   - I think she already sleeps when breastfeeding  (don’t know for sure because I turn off the light) – wake at 45m. mark – it takes 1 hour of s/p to back to sleep

Nw: 2.50 am
Nap time: 3hours20 minutes
Sleep time: hours

Day 9
Wu: 6.40
E: 7
A time (from open to close eyes): 1h40
Wd from  8.15 – s/p 2m  - sleep from 8.20 – 9.40– ( 1h20minutes)  (jolt and open her eyes at 30 minutes mark, sp 10 minutes for her to back to sleep)

E: 10.15
A time: 1h40
Wd from 11.10  - s/p for 5  minutes - sleep from  11.20 – 12.00 (40 minutes)

E:
A time: 2 hour
Wd from 13.15 - s/p for 40 minutes – sleep from 14 – 14.10 (10 minutes)
E: 15.15
A time: 2h35
Wd from 15.45 - s/p for 10 minutes then I can not take it anymore so I let her stay awake. When I held her and walk around  in living room, she fall asleep  – sleep from 16.45 – 17.25 (40 minutes)

A time: 2h20
Bedtime: Put her down at 19.10 – sp for 30 minutes  - sleep 19.45 – wake at 20m. mark – it takes 15 minutes of s/p to back to sleep

Nw: 5 am
Nap time: hours
Sleep time: hours

Day 10
Wu: 7.30
E: 8.30
A time (from open to close eyes): 1h40
Wd from  9.15 – s/p 2m  - sleep from 9.20 – 10.10 – ( 50 minutes)  (at 40 m. mark, she opens her eyes and fall back asleep on her own  after 10 minutes, however she only sleeps briefly then can’t go back anymore)

E: 10.15
A time: 1h40
Wd from 11.40  - s/p for 5  minutes - sleep from  11.50 – 12.50(60 minutes) (at 40 m. mark, she opens her eyes and fall back asleep on her own )

E: 13.50
A time: 1 hour 50
Wd from 14.30  - s/p for 5 minutes – sleep from 14.40 – 15.15 (40 minutes)

E: 15.15
Wd from 16.50 - s/p for 20 minutes then I can not take it anymore so I let her stay awake.

A time:
Bedtime: Put her down at 18.15– sp, pupd for 70 minutes  - sleep 19.30

[jessmum46]

Hi there and hugs, sleep training can be tough going and none of us like hearing our babies cry but to me it really does look like you're doing well!

So at 4 months an average A time is 1h45-2h, rising to up to 2h30 by 5 months.  So at 19 weeks a good A time would typically be somewhere in the middle of those.  There's no 'right answer' though and you have to look at things like how long your LO sleeps, how long it takes them to settle, and their mood on waking.  Typically the 'right' A time will give a nap of 1h30 or more.  Anything 45 mins to 1h20 usually suggests LO was undertired, and typical overtired naps are often around 30 mins. 

So looking at your log, I'd guess your LO needs something like:

First A time around 1h45
Second A time 2h-2h15
Third A time about the same if both naps good
*last A time needs to be shorter* - when she's only had a catnap/short nap she will likely need less than a full A time before she's ready for sleep again.  I'd suggest starting your winddown with an aim to have her in the crib and asleep by about 1h30.

What do you think?

You could also set a wake time if you want more consistency, say 7-7.30am so treat anything before 7am as a night waking and if she's not awake by 7.30am then wake her up. 

Hope some of those ideas help

[Bunny mom]

As you can see from the log, we have a "perfect" nap day on day 6. Since then I try to do the same for other days (even the activity is similar so she is not OS). BUT I never have anything like that anymore. I really don't mind her short nap. When I start sleep train, I have read quite a lot of other topics and realized that 4-5 months is a tough time for nap schedule. I do not have high expectation. All I want is she knows how to sleep on her own and would be consistent with that.  All of this is interlink so I try to find a right a time so that it's easy for my bb to fall asleep. The result is so inconsistent. Nap 1 is ok. But nap 2 is so hard to figure
For ẽ: day 7,8: i wd at the same time (1h50m from nap 1) it can take different time for her to fall asleep. So a time turn different. Day 9, 10 I start wd earlier. She's easier to settle but then sleep time is not good any more.
- with varied nap 2, I don't know which a time for the 3rd nap? 
- short nap 20 minutes and 45 minutes is  different right? What about the next a time for these short naps?
- Is 1 hour nap good? Since yesterday, I dont't intervern right wheb she stirs at 45m. mark. I know she opens her eyes and tosses and turns for a while before fall back to sleep but only for 15 m more. What does that mean? UT?

[jessmum46]

As I said you're doing really well we found it very hard to get any consistency at this age and often even with exactly the same A times naps would be of different lengths.  I guess it comes down to babies not being robots and their sleep needs will not be exactly the same every single day.

Many people find the first nap of the day to be the most consistent, and then struggle more as the day goes on.  With your second A time she had a good nap on day 6, and a short 45 minute probably UT nap on day 7.  That's not completely surprising as her first nap on day 7 was really long.  Day 8 was a good second nap again after a slightly shorter first nap.  So it might be after a really long (2h+) first nap you need to push her an extra 10 mins  or so, but stick with somewhere around 2h15 second A if the first nap is around 1h30.  Day 9 and 10 were different - she had shorter first naps and so yes she fell asleep more quickly for her second nap (as she will have been more tired) but may still not have been tired enough for a good long nap.

I guess your main question is about what A time after short naps.  That's a really difficult one to answer if I'm honest, there's no hard and fast rule that suits every baby.  You need to experiment a bit and see what suits your LO.  Does she show clear sleep cues?  Mine didn't at that age but some do.  As a rough idea/starting point some Mums shorten the next A time by the amount of sleep missed in the nap.  So for example if usual A time is 2h and baby only slept 1h out of what should have been a 1h30 nap, then the next A time would be reduced by 30 mins.  That won't work for every baby though  and to an extent you just have to do your best, get through the day and try again tomorrow.  I found working on getting the first A time right was a great place to start, and once the am nap was a bit more consistent we could work on the next A time.

In terms of nap length, 20 mins often indicates LO didn't get into deep sleep.  That can be due to noise/disturbance or some sort of discomfort e.g. Hot, cold, teeth, gas.  After a 20 min nap LO won't be very well rested and is likely to need a sleep again fairly soon.  45 mins is a sleep cycle, and can indicate that LO was UT when she went to sleep ie not tired enough to sleep a full nap.  However where LO is not a fully independent sleeper that can also cause wakings at the 45 min mark.  That's the time to really hold back (as long as LO isn't crying an 'I need you') and allow LO space to self-settle.  An hour long nap is probably UT. 

Hope that helps, let me know if you have more questions x

[Buttonbobs]

Hi honey, just coming on as you've asked me to and I have to say I agree absolutely with Katherine. You are doing well and I'm sorry that there isn't a more definite 'answer' to how long should LO be awake after a particular length of nap. It is hard to know what to do for the best but it seems like you're doing well at following your LOs needs.

Keep up the good work xxx