Baby #3 but I still can't get it right - 6 wks and very unsettled!

[shresmummy]

My baby DS is now 6 wks old. He is my third so you'd think I might be able to cope. In fact it's worse this time bcos of having to constantly be on the go due o the other two (they're 5 and 3). So it means morning drop offs and school and preschool, and pm pick ups. Some days DH can help but mostly it's me.

In the early weeks DS would be happy to be in the ergo carrier and would be sleeping and would transfer easily to the car capsule and stay sleeping. But as of this week he keeps waking up,  and cries constantly.its impossible to be home bound and settle him properly for nap. So I've resigned myself to ergo naps and car naps. But he just screams in the car no matter what. And as of yesterday he constantly cries all the time!

We are on a rough eating routine of 2-3 hrs in between.

I'm not sure why he's so unsettled suddenly..today just got me, we were all crying by bedtime!

Can you please help ladies? I need to work out how to fit little DS into our crazy day without him crying all the time in the car.. It stresses me out so much! I always try to feed him before we leave.

He is BF, and I give him an ebm bottle before we leave in the morning. Do babies suddenly start crying more at this age? I vaguely remember that with my other DS.

Thanks heaps!

[shresmummy]

It's another crazy day of crying before every nap even though I'm holding him.. He has good feeds today and also DH did the drop offs so I was home with the baby. He fed well but then still cried heaps when I was trying to rock him for a nap.. I try to keep A times to 45 mins max. But he just has to scre himself silly then calm down and will fall asleep... Only to wake in 10 or 20 mins again,  even if I'm holding him. Then screams again till I feed him  I'm totally demoralised today... What am I doing wrong?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

(((Hugs))) firstly!

Do you think he could be having a growth spurt at all? Sheesh I'm not that far removed from the nb stage and I cannot remember when they happen!

Also 45 min is pretty low A time, his protests could be due to being UT - this link shows average A times:

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

DD3 was not a fan of her carseat (still isnt unless super tired really). But - is he always fed right before going in it? Could he have some trapped wind? DD3 was way worse in her seat if she had trapped wind.

[shresmummy]

Hi, thanks so much for stopping by to have a look at my post! I really appreciate it so in terms of the carseat, usually he finishes a feed about 15 mins before we get in the car... Burps, has a nappy change..then goes in the car.. What im trying hard to understand us why he's always unhappy during the supposed A time😁😁 after a feed I try to put him in the bouncer, he lasts for 5 mins max then cries and fusses. So I put him in the ergo cos he wants to be carried.. Then he's ok for another few mins then fusses again and I'm usually trying to race around madly doing things for the other 2.. In the am he settles quickly for a nap in the ergo.. Other times its a screaming match until he cries himself to sleep or I feed what do you think? I'm baffled.. Don't know if its pain or ot or it? He's 6 wks but was born  at 37 wks.

[clazzat]

My first thought would be that it would be worth investigating reflux or mpi - it is possible that he is protesting short a times, but the waking up screaming and the unhappiness during a times would have me checking out medical issues first. Does he have any of the other symptoms of reflux? Reflux 101 - General reflux information I had two refluxers and went through this stage and the difference when they started the medication was astonishing - like I had been given a different baby.

[shresmummy]

I had a look at the reflux symptoms in the link you posted clazzat, he has some of them,but not others. He does spit up a lot...but he doesn't seem bothered at the time he spits up. It's like he does a burp then stuff comes out a second later. Some days it's lots that comes out other days not so much. I have already cut out dairy from my diet. Would you suggest cutting out anything else? Dairy free diet hasn't changed his spitting up symptoms much. How can you tell whether it's real reflux or just spitting up that a lot of babies do?

Heidi, how should I measure A times when his eyes are closed during bf? He's not asleep bcos he's actively feeding. But has his eyes closed. Then after I take him off, his eyes open..and he's not happy, so I see if he wants to feed dome more, he does sometimes not other times. Then I try to put him on the bouncer or change his nappy, he's ok for literally a few mins then starts fussing. Then I pop him in the carrier and his fussing escalates slowly until he's screaming himself silly then he calms down and closes eyes...then eyes pop open in 10 mins again! He then cries again and finally sleeps for a longer stretch in the carrier. If I try to put him down, he's up in10/20 mins again

How can I get around this? He refuses the dummy as well, and spits up if I try to hold it in place.. He keeps pushing it out.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I measured A times from wake up to asleep for next nap - the dozing while bf I did not count. Have you done the quiz to figure out what his temperment is?

The BW "Know Your Baby Quiz"

[clazzat]

He does sound a bit refluxy, tbh. I would go to your doc and ask if you can try a thickener like gaviscon to see if that helps - it did wonders for dd2, and it is pretty harmless if that is not the issue.

[shresmummy]

I am seein my paediatrician on wed for the 6 wk checkup and I will ask him about the reflux then. I also took the quiz. Some questions were not relevant yet but he came up as a touchy one  :)I think I guessed that though

With reflux do they act as though they're in pain during the time they spit up? .

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Yes some of the questions dont pertain yet, and I found some answers changed as she got older.  Hmm I have had spirited/touchy...the touchy bit is probably not helping esp with possible reflux. I found DD2 (the touchy one) needed zero stimulation at that age - even reflections off of things set her off. For naps I did not know much about babywearing so I used shh/pat in the crib in a blacked out room with white noise going and I had to basically do a clock schedule as a fluid routine was not her thing at all - the sleepy signs meant I had waited too long to put her down!

[clazzat]

My touchy one was very difficult for cues as well - like Heidi if I could see sleepy signs then it was too late.  I also found in the early days that she needed very short a times as she got os so quickly.

The spitting up is not necessarily painful if they have reflux, it is often later when they start to be in pain.

[shresmummy]

Hmmm so I wonder how to make him fit along with the other twos activities and the school drop off run..

I'm not sure I can manage the ultra short A times during the week still least in the am and at pm at pick up time. today I was at home all day with him and didn't go out in the car. I tried to put him down with very short A times but he was still so restless, he would fall asleep a bit easier, but in 5 or 10 mins his eyes would pop open the he'd have a hard time settling again.. It went on like this for ages! Even if I stayed with him. But at night from about 7:45-9:30/10 he seems to be able to settle himself in between. I can hear him grunting and squirming away but he seems to be able yo get back o sleep. Just my luck baby 3 wasn't an angel/textbook!

[shresmummy]

I just wanted to let you know our day today to see what you thought :

wu 7:30am (bf at 5:45 then went back to sleep)
E ebm 100ml
A screamed in car from 8:15-8:30while dropping dd
S in ergo from 8:40-9:10 then transfer to car seat stayed asleep till 10:30 (with a bit of rocking the capsule around 10 during DS swimming class)

E bf at 10:30 very sleepy. Put down then woke up again in 15 mins so fed from. 10:45
A ended up being till nearly 1!! Tried to put him down since 11:45 . Cried for about 15 mins. then refused to settle after that. Was just looking around everywhere. Didn't really cry.
S finally slept around 1pm. Eyes kept popping open every 5 mins. Finally slept 1:30-2 woke up crying.

E bf at 2,
A bath then in ergo
S 3:15 - 5:30 in carrier

E bf 5:30
A had to wait till 7 so I could take other two to bed as well.
S bf again at bt then slept from 7:30-9

Did a big poo and woke up now it's 9:20 pm and I'm feeding again.

I'm not sure why the afternoon went so wrong. He was pretty decent this am though. I wish I could get some naps in the cot longer than 20 mins! What do you think of today?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Honestly at that age I had DD3 in her wrap more than the crib. I would try the crib/bassinet firstly but if it was a no go I just wore her. By about 11/12 weeks she was more amenable to the crib. I sort of used the wrap to get the rhythm of our routine without her getting ot which made transitioning easier.

[shresmummy]

Hi ladies, sorry I was missing.. We were all sick with a viral cold . DS included as if things weren't bad enough!

I wanted to update where we were at..
I have started him on losec (1/2tablet twice a day. I started last Wednesday and I thought he was more settled in a couple of days by Friday.. But it didn't last. He got a cold and it's al out of whack now.

I'm doing nothing but the ergo carrier now. Not even attempting naps in the cot. The trouble I'm running into now is that before when he was asleep in the carrier say before we start the school run (during breakfast etc.) then he would stay asleep when I transfer him to the car seat. Now he is more aware of stuff around him and he wakes up . then will not settle again.mthen his next nap is too late and the day goes all over the place

Also should I really be trying for 3 hr gap between all feeds now? He's 8 wks on Friday. He can sometimes go 3 hr if asleep in the carrier without being disrupted. But if he wakes early will want a feed even if it's after 45 mins or an hour.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Ugh its hard when there is older kids in the mix and running here and there. We would sometimes have feeds closer together, but usually 2 hrs at least. E lost the transfer ability about then too, that makes it hard. Lots of healthy vibes for you guys!  What does the day look like and what do you need to fit naps around? Perhaps we can help puzzle it out!

[shresmummy]

Heidi thanks so much for listening to me carrying on about his "routine" (or lack thereof!) I really appreciate it.

Well in terms of what a typical day looks like here's what has to happen most days:

6:30-7:30 am : wake up, get breakfast for kids 1 and 2, brush teeth, change clothes, nag them to eat etc..

7:45-8: get everyone our of the house, .load DS2 (baby 3) in car, load the car with bags, etc
8-8:10: drive to DS 1 preschool, take all kids out of car, and load
back again to go to DD school.
8:10-8:20 drive to DD school
8:20-9: arrive at school, take DD and DS 2 out of car again,  drop off DD, stay for reading circle.
9:9:10 back home usually unless need to run errands.

2:30-2:40 load DS2 in car to drive to, preschool first to pick up DS 1.(that means in and out of car)
2:40-2:50 drive to pick up,DD
2:50-3:25 wait till dismissal and load all kids back in car
3:25-3:40 drive back home.
3:45 out of car and back home.

And here is what happened to DS2 today in terms of his routine, and sleeps

Wu 6:20
S 7-7:30 in ergo during older kids breakfast
E ebm bottle at 7:30 before we left
Awake and cried whenever placed in car from 7:50-8:20 during DS1 drop off

S 8:25-9:05 during DD drop off and reading circle etc.
Cried when put from ergo back in car till we got home at 9:15
E bf at 9:20
S 10- 12:40 ( in ergo till 12:20 then I put him down in cot and he woke in .20 mins at 12:40)

E bf 12:45-1:14
Started crying 1:30, tried to get him to sleep, kept crying, fed again at 2 wouldn't settle till nearly 2:20 but woke when I transferred him to car seat at 2:30 
Cried and miserable in car all the way till 2:50
S 2:50-3:30 while waiting for DD pick up at school
Woke when transferred back to car

E bf at 3:45 when we got home
S tried to settle for sleep since 4:15, very miserable, fed again at 5:15 then finally slept
5:20- 6:15 in ergo
Woke briefly but continued to sleep in ergo.  while I bathed others.

Then I took the whole gang to bed at 6:35, he bf in his sleep while I read to others.

So essentially he went to bed at 6:35, I put him down in the cot at 7:15, he slept till 8:15 woke at bf again, and oddly has been having the best night he's ever had  it's now 10:20 pm and he stirred a bit in the middle but went back to sleep?!

What do you reckon? Poor baby these car transfers are getting him.. And he doesn't settle well for the afternoon nap somehow..

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Oh my what a busy time you have...my school run is like 5 min max! Hmm that makes it pretty tough for any routine to work until he is a little older and able to stay awake more. Will be back once I have the kids tucked in to have a better look!

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Oh totally forgot to ask if anything came up at the dr appt regarding reflux?

[shresmummy]

That's half the battle! These school runs are suited to a 5 month old baby! Well, the dr said to try losec, and I have been doing that for nearly2 weeks now. I don't see any difference though and I'm also off soy and dairy. I think he just hates the car seat and screams his head off until he's picked up again at night he can self settle.. Today I laid him down awake at 8 pm and he groaned about for a bit nod actually went to sleep! I couldn't believe it., but day naps are still in sling. When do they definitively move to 2 naps and a catnap? Is it 4 months? Or older even?

[clazzat]

Mine were nearer 6 months when we dropped the cat nap, but we did a shorter morning nap then long lunchtime nap and 4pm catnap. My third was a bit older when we started having to deal with school runs, but even so it was a nuisance. Can you apop back to sleep at 6.20 so that he starts his day a bit later? That might help to get his naps a bit more in sync with the school run. The other things is can you leave him in the car seat when you are dropping off? Perhaps he will get a bit more used to being in it and be able to manage some longer sleeps.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I agree with Clare on trying to apop the morning wake up to suit the day better. My older two dropped the catnap at 6 months or so but DD3 did it at 4 months - she is very low sleeps needs though. Is the carseat the bucket kind that you can pop in and out easy? Not that that helped us - DD3 has hated her set since she came out of the sleepy newborn phase - she still screams every time we but her in it.

[ZacsMumme]

Hey Hun, what is the losec dose your LO is on?

[shresmummy]

Thanks ladies today was just the limit! He cried the second he was put in the seat all the way till I reached the place and I picked him up.. He just seems to hate it! In terms of carrying him around in the car seat I used to do it up until about 6 weeks but then he just started screaming so much I had to pick him up!

In terms of getting wu time a bit later, I'm kind of doing that but it's turning out that it's almost like a super early nap. It's impossible to stop DD and DS1 from coming into our room the minute they're up, and DS1 is up around 6:30 these days (he's nap dropping, and has ew after early bt, a whole other story!) but he wants to hug the baby, kiss him, and just smother him! And he ends up waking up no natter what we try!

But what I've been doing is getting bubs up, changing his nappy and then popping him in the carrier straight away so he sleeps till 7:30 so like an extra hour then start the first feed then. He has a BF around 5:30 am. Then ebm at 7:30.

The other thing I'm finding so hard to gauge is his true A time because of all these interrupted naps. I feel like I'm carting him around in the ergo all day long! He's happy sometimes but is still sleepy, prob not sleepy enough so hie falls asleep then eyes open again in 10 mins, Hard to say what he needs!!

I should try to come up with some sort of routine to work towards, say by the time he's 3 months. By then is it mainly 3 naps? What would u suggest?

In terms of the losec he was on 1/2 tablet twice a day. I used to try and dissolve it in about 2 ml of water. Such a pain to give, he keeps spitting it up.. I have stopped it now for afew days bcos I didn't think it made a difference. What do you think? Should I start it again?

[ZacsMumme]

What is a tablet in mg I mean?
My second screamed in the car seat, he got sore tummy from his intolerances to dairy etc.

If he's in discomfort then naps maybe hard still. I think if he is happy in the carrier and you are ok with it I would keep him in there when you can. See if you can maybe get one nap in the bassinet/crib but at such a young age, with other kids to worry about I'd be doing what works for now. I'm no good with teeny tiny routines so I'll leave the easy ladies to help with that x

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

We had such wacky routines due to lsn that I am not an expert, but yes 3 naps is usual up until 6 ish months when lost drop the catnap.  If he is able to stay awake longer (even if cranky in the carseat) it will make getting one or two naps at home easier. The catnap I always used apop! Hmm tough with ew with siblings around, I am not a morning person so my older kids steer clear until I have my coffee!!

[shresmummy]

Sorry Sara! I should've said a tablet is 10 mg. so I guess he's having 5 mg twice a day? What do you reckon?

Today we had a reasonably decent day, except he was a bit unsettled this evening.

Wu 6:15
Sleep 6:40-7:40
E bf. 7:40
Interrupted am during drop off brief nap 8:40-9
Sleep 9:30-11
E bf 11
Sleep 12:20-2
E bf 2
S 3:05-3:35 (woke during transfer to car seat)
Wouldn't really resettle after we got home
E 4:30
S finally only at 5:45 was in carrier whole time, a bit unsettled
E bf while sleeping during other kids bt at 6:45
S has been sleeping since. It's 10 pm

This is probably the closest to what's manageable now for me isn't it? Any thing I can improve on this routine.?
Wish I could consolidate that morning into 1 nap after drop off!

Heidi, lol about the coffee

[ZacsMumme]

That day looks good!
It's an ok dose then but I do think it may be more effective if given all at once as 5mg at a time may not be enough to actually do anything can you see if your dr is happy for you to give the 10 mg at one dose in the morning before a feed it will probably be more effective.

[shresmummy]

Thanks Sara, I checked with my dr. He said I could try the 10 mg dose in the morning given that the 5 mg dose twice a day didn't make much of a difference. So I have started that, how long do you think it might take before I see a differenc, if any?

And in terms of naps, they're all still happening in the carrier.. I think I will start trying cot naps when he moves to 3 naps a day... Whenever that will be! It seems impossible right now to be upstairs sleep training the baby while the other 2 are unsupervised downstairs all day! I just hope when his day gets more consistent it will be easy for him to sleep in the cot. At night he sleeps for several hours at a stretch in it..

[ZacsMumme]

Hopefully you notice improvement in a few days but give it up to a week. glad your dr changed the meds around to 1 dose.

I think your plan sounds good. Before 4 mths they just do what they do anyway I think. The 4 mth sleep regression is when everything goes pear shaped so till to then you may as well do whatever works and try to just get EAS in order with appropriate A times and get through the early days with as little pain as possible x

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Totally agree with Sara! Things went wacky here at 4 months.

[shresmummy]

Hi ladies, I just wanted to update how things are. DS is now 10 weeks, I have been on losec at 10 mg in one dosing know for just over a week.. I can't say if things are better fully yet..but I think he is settling down in general. We still have few episodes a day of unexplained crying..but they are reducing

I guess I gave to start working on a routine now. At least most feeds are now 3 hours apart.. Which is a start

What are A times like in general and what should I aim for now? I'm going for 1 hr 15 mins. But sometimes I find that if I put Him down too quickly he naps for only like 10 mins then is wide awake and refuses to resettle. Even in the sling.no cot naps yet.

I have to go now, he's up got a feed but I will be back with our easy from today.. Thanks again!

[clazzat]

Not much time to post, but here is a link to average a times: Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

What I did before I bothered trying to get all the naps in the crib was to use apop to set the timings (so some naps I held her to sleep and laid her down & resettled and others just wore her) so that when I finally tried getting her to self settle that we had a bit of a routine going time wise at least!

[Erin M]

Hi hun - sounds like you've been having quite the time with #3!  My third was such a bad napper as well, I think the combination of being constantly overstimulated by his older sisters and continually being carted around here, there, and everywhere.  I think you're getting some fab advice regarding A times and reflux but I just wanted to pop on and mention that with ds, I would try to get him to sleep in his crib for one nap a day and at night.  He short napped pretty much every nap for months and months so we just went with it the best we could.  Despite all that, he eventually became a really good napper (won't tell you when, it wasn't for a while!) and is the only one of mine who still had a nap at age 3.  He's also an amazing sleeper in general -- so, it really will fall into place eventually. 

[shresmummy]

Thanks ladies... Erin he sleeps in his crib most of the night (at least one thing that I'm trying to be consistent with!).only after 5 am I bring him into bed with me. I think the overstimulation really gets him.. Especually my other DS who's 3 is just literally in his face trying to hug and kiss him every time his eyes are open! He loves him to the point where the baby suddenly can't take it anymore and screams his head off! At least DD is more mature about it!

Heidi, your idea is sort of whet I'm trying tomorrow as well, try to get the times right and then move to cot naps. But I'm still struggling with the timings.. I'm trying to stick to the average A times but at some times of the day he just won't settle and ends up being awake for like 3 hrs!,

Today:

Wu 6:30
E bf 6:30
S 7:45-9:35 this first nap he usually falls asleep easily)

E: 9:35
E again at 11:30 (we had a bday party to attend so he only slept after another feed at 11:30)
 S he slept 11:30-1:30 then I transferred him to car and he continued sleeping till 2:15!!

E 2:20
A was a bit fussy around 3:30 so I tried wearing him for a nap.

Boy the evening went downhill quickly! He screamed and refused to nap then dozed for 10 mins woke crying. Then I fed again at 5, he napped after feed for another 15/20 mins  and he was up fussing in between till 6:30. Then I took kids to bed and fed him again.. I put him in the cot at 7:15 for bt. That's like 5 hrs A time!!!

He has been sleeping since 7:15,  it's 10;20 now. The past few nights when he's had sort of a decent evening nap, he has woken up 45 mins after going to bed. But tonight he's had such an awful evening but night has been better so far..?.?. What do you think?

I need to work towards getting the evenings a bit better....but can't figure out how!

[clazzat]

I wonder if perhaps he is suffering a bit from overstimulation and you need to cut the a times right back - it is possible that he can cope with the "right" amount of a time first thing and give you a decent nap because there isn't so much going on at that time of day, but as the day gets busier there is too much happening for him to switch off and fall asleep.  Have you tried the know your baby quiz yet?  I found that was really helpful for dd2 as I couldn't get her a times right at all - I found that she was 25% angel, textbook, touchy and spirited (), but when I looked at the questions properly I found that all of her touchiness related to sleep and she was getting os very quickly - her sleep improved when I cut her a times for a bit.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Good point on OS Clare...my DD2 was very touchy with OS and had some super short A times as an infant, where DD2 & 3 are more textbook with sleep (well except DD3 is low sleep needs but taking that into account she is textbool just on an older baby routine!)

[shresmummy]

Boy I buggered up today! We ended up with like 5 45min naps and a very messed up afternoon.

Basically I think all my problems relate to having to muck up his naps due to needing yo take him out and about all the time due to having things on for the older kids. Each time he's asleep nicely in the carrier, he needs to go in the car, then he wakes up and ot builds up as the day goes on.

I wish there was a way to get him yo have a massive nap from say 11-2 and the cat naps at either end.. That's the only wish I think things can work

I'm feeling so disheartened today. Even if I try lowering the A times and he settles well, I can't keep him staying asleep can I ? Due to having to do other things?

We're you always able to stick to the correct A times? How find you get around the limitation of the older kids scheules?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

No we were never able to stick to normal A times, which was a blessing in disguise as it was how I figured out how she was super low sleeps needs. With older kids you just have to kind of fit naps in where they work. It gets easier as they need less naps at least!

[shresmummy]

Thanks Heidi, maybe there's something to look forward to! It's literally impossible to stick to normal A times for his age...the only problem is from the quiz I think he's got some touchiness. That's what making it hard I guess. I hope he's like your little one and grows to have higher A times or at least be able to handle them! Or else life's going y to get very tricky!

[Erin M]

We were never able to stick to the "right" A times either -- I felt like he was perpetually OT and OS at that age.  He really did grow out of it eventually but it really just took doing my best with helping him cope for ages. 

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

Thankfully DD3 has been lsn so the weird A times have not bothered her too much - touchiness would make it tougher though.

[shresmummy]

Erin, can you please give me some tips on how to help him cope? That's more or less what I've resigned myself to for the next month or so... Until we get to 2 naps and a cn. He's still just 11 weeks! So I'm hoping we are nearly there. I too feel he's perpetually ot. I think he's getting better at dealing with the os..doesn't burst into tears so often these days poor little fellow.

[Erin M]

Ugh, I wish I had some magic tips to help!  Extra long winddowns when you can but I know that's hard too when you've got older ones.  I'd end up nursing him to sleep in the late afternoon sometimes and attempting to let him catch up that way.  He also did well in the swing in the afternoons so I'd out him in there quite a bit.  But really, time was our best friend there -- it all got easier as he got older and could cope with being OT better. 

[shresmummy]

Hi ladies can u believe my DS is 4 mo! I've hit the short nap dramas and I've got a post on the easy boards.. If any of you have a minute, id love for you to have a look and help me tweak my A times! Your advice has always helped me in the past! Thanks again

Routine help -4 mo, short naps and erratic feeding