Author Topic: How to teach 8mo LO who keeps standing in her cot to sleep independently?  (Read 1259 times)

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Offline Iris mommy

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My 8 month old DD is a spirited and touchy baby who has never slept independently. But she had learnt to fall asleep with shush pat when she was being swaddled since 3mo. Her sleep has started to regress so badly when I wean her off the swaddle about a month ago. This was also the time when she started to roll over, crawl , sit and even pull herself to stand up in her cot! All these developmental milestones came along together. I've tried pu/pd. but she just refuse to lay down, and pull herself to stand up, crying hysterically eventhough she is very tired. SHe is almost inconsolable even after being picked up. I had to pat her back until she is really calm before I can put her down again. The only way I can get her to lay down is to lean into the cot until she is asleep and my back aches a lot!  I wondered if it has got to do with separation anxiety, as she seemed to be very aware of me moving away from the cot (kept opening eyes, or keep waking up even after she is asleep.)

Would be very grateful if anyone could give any advice or ideas on how to manage this:)

Offline Iris mommy

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DD only nap total of 20 mins yesterday. She just refused to sleep. This leads to horrible Nw and EW :(

I really do not know how to deal with this anymore and I'm starting work next month.

Offline ZacsMumme

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Hugs, it's so hard when they don't sleep.

8 mths is a really tough age for sleep. It's also when teething often kicks in and developmental milestones affect sleep and behaviour. Do you see any signs of discomfort? - if so does medicating help?

Can you post a typical day when your trying to pd for naps etc? - sometimes they get in UT/OT loops when their A times are inappropriate for their age.

When you say he he has never slept independently, do you mean you have never been able to pd and her settle herself to sleep without your intervention?

Now she is standing in her cot you would be doing PD only and not PU unless very upset (like loosing it) and you need to calm her down.


***Sara***
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DS1 - Our sensitive soul. Silent reflux.

DS2 Our cheeky chipmunk. Reflux, MSPI.

Offline Iris mommy

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Thanks for the reply!

She was sick (high fever) last week so I didn't really ST her for the whole week.

I don't thinks she is teething now. I think most likely is developmental milestones and separation anxiety. She is just so clingy now.

When I pd her she would go hysteric most of the time! I would pu/pd until she is very exhausted then I would try patting her until she is asleep. But that's wasn't the case when she was being swaddled.she could fall alseep herself then.

Now that she keeps standing in the cot , I did pd but she will cry so badly that I had to keep picking her up. Even after picking her up she is inconsolable ;( how do I deal with this?

Yesterday wake up time was 730am and she would only nap for a total of 20mins only at 1pm. She just refused to go down when I tried to put her down at 10am. I've read some mommies will let LO figure it out themselves by letting them stand in their cot if they are not crying. She wasn't crying so I just let her be but  by the time she starts crying she was OT and hence wouldn't settle down easily. BT at 6pm and she fell asleep while feeding.  Nw was every 2hours

Today nap times look like this:
Wake up7:30am
S:10:53-12:10pm
S: 3:40-4:10pm
BT 7:20pm, woke up crying standing in cot after 30min but went back to sleep after being pd

How shall I deal with this? I'm confused and I dont have a solid plan on what to do next.;(

« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 12:46:29 pm by Iris mommy »

Offline ZacsMumme

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Hugs, I think a lot of her fighting you could be due to her routine being a bit wonky. Her A times before a nap at this age are usually a min of 3 hrs. It might be why the wouldn't settle when you tried that ten am nap the other day.

I'm going to pop you over to the easy board for some routine eyes and help and then I think you will find PU/pd works much better. If need be we can get some sleep eyes on this too, or start another thread for PU/pd help once your routine is in place.

Hugs
***Sara***
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DS1 - Our sensitive soul. Silent reflux.

DS2 Our cheeky chipmunk. Reflux, MSPI.

Offline jessmum46

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Hi there, I definitely agree with Sara that trying for a nap at 10am after a 7.30 WU was probably too early.  I would aim for an absolute minimum of 3h first A time, but looking at the times you posted above she may need quite a bit more, possibly up to 3h30 to get a good nap.  We certainly needed that much A time at 8 months or DD would just resist or short nap. If you can get a good 1.5-2h nap out of her first thing with a decent A time, she may handle the same A time again for the second A.  Then if she does another good nap, around 3h before BT.  Or possibly she may take a shorter second nap with a shorter A before bed.  A typical day for us at 8 months might have been something like:

WU 7
Nap 10.30-12
Nap 3.30-4/4.30
BT 6.30/7ish

Do you want to try a bit longer first A time for a few days and see how it goes?

Offline Iris mommy

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Thanks Sara & Jessmum

Her routine for the past 2 days were wonky.  Even if I up her A time to 3-3.5hrs she won't sleep too.  Ended up go down to nap after being awake for 5hrs.

Night sleep was terrible too. She keep waking up every 5min half an hour after she is asleep crying for me. But when I go to her, put her down she would settle immediately.  Seems like she just want to make sure I'm next to her.

Is this normal for babies this age? I thought as they grow older their sleep would have improve.

Offline jessmum46

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That would always suggest some sort of discomfort here  :-\. Not teething?  Oh no - I see you thought not in an earlier post.  Hmm, it could be very OT from the long A time.

If she's not an independent sleeper though that is going to make any sort of routine adjusting/analysing quite hard.  Are you wanting to start any form of sleep training ie having her settle without you there?


Offline Iris mommy

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Yup, I want to sleep train her but because she keeps standing up in the cot which makes it very difficult.  Any suggestions on how I should start? I know that ST requires consistency. No matter what I will preservere.  :)

Offline jessmum46

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The standing in the cot doesn't make it more difficult, it just changes how you do PUPD :). The biggest thing to change is the mindset of 'I need to put her to sleep' to 'I need to let her go to sleep' which is a really hard thing to do when LO has always been reliant on you to settle.  Crying is the other thing that can be really hard to deal with, and when you're in the middle of sleep training every cry can feel like an inconsolable awful cry.  But this is one of those times you really need to rely on that checklist every parent has - hunger, cold, hot, clean nappy etc and trust that if you have dealt with all those things, the cry is not a cry of abandonment or fear, it is a cry of protest because you are changing things.  One of Tracy's tips was to use earplugs when you're doing PUPD - not to ignore or drown out LO, but just to reduce the volume and intensity a little to help you stay calm and focused.

So as long as you're working towards an age-appropriate routine (absolutely key), then you would do your normal winddown routine and put her in the cot.  Sit yourself down on a chair in the room out of her eyeline if you can.  If she pulls to stand you ignore her unless she is crying an 'I need you' cry, at which point you would lie her down again and return to your place on the chair.  Repeat repeat repeat.  Use your voice to calm and soothe - it's ok baby, it's just sleep time, mummy's here etc etc.  You don't pick her up at all unless she is completely beside herself and frantic - you'll need to think really hard about this as I said before because when you're in the stress of sleep training it can feel like this every time.  But picking up should be a rare event at this age, and should only be for a moment before you put her down again regardless of whether she has stopped crying or not. 

For naps you try for a max of 45 mins before taking you both out of the room for a break.  Watch her for cues and at the next sign of tiredness try again for another nap.  She may skip naps entirely for the first day or two, that's tough but ok and to be expected.  At some point the OT kicks in and starts working in your favour.  For bedtime and at night wakings you use the PD technique for as long as it takes for her to go back to sleep.  Which she will eventually, but you can expect it to take upwards of 2 hours when you first start out.

Once she can go to sleep on her own in her cot with you in the room, you start working your way out of the room by moving your chair halfway and then all the way to the door, all the time continuing to reassure with your voice.

What do you think?

Offline Iris mommy

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Thanks Katherine for the advice.  :)

Some quick question.
1. Sometimes DD was really tired and cried so badly when I pd her.  It came to some point where she suddenly stop crying and became hyper all of sudden. How should I deal with this?  Bring her out of the room?

2. If I want to extend her naps how long should I do it before I bring her out of the room?

3. It happened to me before that when DD is really tired and pull herself to stand up but she wasn't crying , she could do this got an hour or more.  Should I continue to let her be or pd her? 


Offline Iris mommy

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Update for morning nap

Wakes up at 7.15 am
Nap 10:30 am -11

Just wondering whether this short nap is OT /UT?
Sleeping method was pd.

TIA

Offline Iris mommy

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One more short question ( sorry ;D)

We are gong on a short trip this coming Sunday until Tuesday. How do I managed her sleep?

Thanks again

Offline jessmum46

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Hi again :). I'll try to answer all your questions.

If DD suddenly seems hyper when you're trying to settle her, it's probably overtiredness and getting a second wind.  If she's not crying I would leave her to it - taking her out of the room may end up being quite confusing for her (unless you've been trying for a nap for 45 mins already, in which case you would give both of you a break).  Just stand back and let her get on with messing around until she needs you again.

Extending naps - there no right answer, it's whatever you're happy with.  I personally took the view that if I couldn't resettle LO easily within a max of 15-20 mins then I would give up on the nap and just move on with the day.  I'd bring the next nap forwards and keep A time low-key.  When first establishing a routine I think Tracy's advice was to continue to try to resettle for the whole of the designated nap time, but to be honest that would drive me insane!  Not to mention completely exhaust you both.

If she's pulling to stand but not crying you leave her to it.  You can't intervene with PD unless she's upset otherwise it very quickly becomes a game.  Generally I found those long periods of standing and not settling were due to OT/UT issues, not just sleep training so it's worth looking at the routine too.

30 min naps are usually overtired, but may reflect a build up of OT from bad naps or nights rather than the A time itself being wrong.  Great that she took a nap with PD though :)

What sort of trip are you doing?  Are you likely to be out and about a lot?  To be honest if things are a little haywire at the moment anyway, I'd do what you need to do to get through the trip and make it enjoyable for all of you (not the time for sleep training) and then think about getting on track again once you're home.


Offline Iris mommy

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Thanks for the reply;)

It's a relaxing trip where we just hang out in the resort itself. So I will try to stick to the routine as much as possible ;)

Thanks again Katherine . Appreciate your help;)

I'll post again if I need any help on the routine;)