7 month twins, night waking and early morning waking.

[annamomof3]

Hello Moms of multiples! I too feel for you, I have b/g 7 mnth old B/G twins and its been nothing but all of the above. However I have noticed my son stick to a 4 Hour EASY and luckily for me he has been sleeping thru the nights since 6 mnths, my girl on the other hand is a mess! Early wakes, barely naps, wakes every night at 2-3 am and takes an ounce to 5 oz per feed every few hours. Anyone have any tips? HERE Is our EASY or NOT EASY whichever seems more appropriate. I am so stressed out I feel like I have tried every tip out there from decreasing solids, to faster nipples, to more activity, earlier solid feeds, earlier bed time I dont think there is anything left! I even asked her pediatrician if there was something wrong she says no.

E 3AM 2 oz
S 3-630AM
A 630AM - 7A activity
E 7AM 2-3.5 oz
E 830AM breakfast 2 TBSP fruit
S 9-1145
E/A1145 3 oz restless
E/A 1225 1oz restless
E/A 230 2oz restless
(I let baby roll in her crib / sooth her by sitting with her nothing works)
S 3-430
E430 3-5oz (depends on the day)
S 445-630PM 
E 7PM - (I try to offer bottle first but she refuses)  2 TBSP veggies / cereal
A (BATH) 730-830
E 9PM 3.5  - 5 oz (depends of the day)
S 915PM
E I was giving her a DF at 1030 but she stopped taking it a month ago,

[Uglybethy]

Hello Anna
I've only just found your post I am sorry for the delay in replying because of this.
What a muddle this little girls seems to be in! And how infuriating for you that your little boy is sleeping all night but little girls seems way off.
I've got a few initial thoughts, some of which you might find useful but it would also be useful for me to see your little boy's EASY routine to see how this compares. And a few other questions for you...are they synchronized? Are they similar sizes? Were they born to term? Do you use any props for sleeping eg pacifier? Do you have any help at all?
Let me know when you can then I can have a good think as to how we can help you out!
In the mean time, sending you hugs and strength to keep going... Hang in there!

[babybarr]

Will be back in the morning to help!

[4isstillnighttime]

Hi anna!

I am rubbish at formula as have only just started using it, but what I found v helpful was to think of what my ideal EASY would be and then work towards that. Are you happy with your little boy's routine?

[annamomof3]

Hello ladies I'm still at my wits end with my dear A. She is still waking 245 every morning for about an ounce or so of formula weeks for the day at 6 AM and barely eats 2 ounces. I've tried the fastest tea it doesn't work I don't know what else to do. Darling L my boy is pretty much on a 4 to 5 hour easy. I love the schedule and he seems happy on it . everyone can sleep ! Zzzz.....but if a is around she wakes him up so I have to put her in my swing next to my bed and that is the only way she goes back down. So two things I'm desperate to eliminate the swing is a prop problem and her evening wake. There has been nights were she slept through but it was almost as if I was force-feeding her cluster feeds and had to give her a few teaspoons of food after she finished her dinner . I just felt like I was shoveling food and formula into her mouth but she did sleep through the night . she is a much smaller twin. She always was the smaller one , she was 5 pounds at birth full term 39 weeks. I delivered naturally. She came first and he came an hour later . today at seven months she's only about 13 a half pounds so her intake is sufficient according to her pediatrician but she definitely is missing a bottle because when she takes it she sleeps I just don't know what else to do help

[annamomof3]

Also with respect to help I really don't have any during the day I'm tending to my active three-year-old and the twins so I do have to prop them to feed them bottles unfortunately but I love my job and I'm doing the best I can I guess! Just desperate to eliminate the swinging at night and her feed at 2:45 AM!

[Sarah - Enfys' Mum]

Hi, I think one of your problems is her day is very long  - 6:30 am to 9 pm.  She's also having three full length day time naps there. If I were you, I'd try to cut that third nap right back to a short cat nap of 20-30 mins max with the idea of dropping it for good in the next couple of weeks. What do you think?

[4isstillnighttime]

I agree with Sarah - we try for a 13 h day if good naps and a 12 h day if bad. From their ideal wake up. So if you want her up at 6 aim for bed at 7. And mine were def on 2 long naps and a catnap by 7 months. Catnap usually in the pushchair or car then they woke up by themselves when we stopped pushing.2

Also (and I'm not sure how BW this is!!) my 2 eat a phenomenal amout and have gone from being at the 0.4th centil at birth to the 50th and are still climbing. I think being twins they can't reach their full potential when they are inside you!! So she may still need loads of milk but struggle with big feeds. Also be careful of replacing milk with solid food too soon as solids fill them up but have much fewer calories than milk so it can make them hungrier. I know this to my cost after starting solids early!

[Uglybethy]

Can I just says what an amazing job you're doing given that you've got a three year old running around the place as well!

I think you've summarized the issues that need to change really well and I agree also that the 2.30 am feed is a problem, along with the swinging to sleep. My sense is that the 2.30 feed could be resolved by adding to her daytime formula intake and that if this doesn't resolve it then it's a habit and there are other strategies that will help you break that.

The swinging to sleep is a prop issue that if you're ready to wean then you use a technique called 'pick up put down' to do this. Do you have the baby whisperer books (the secrets of a baby whisper and the baby whisperer solves all your problems)? They explain the technique in detail. You mentioned that you have no help during the day... Is someone there with you at night to help at all? Also do you eventually want them to share a room or will they be in separate rooms?

So when little girls starts the day at 6am is that when you all start the day? Are you aiming for a 6am - 6pm day? In aiming for a four hour easy I'm guessing your looking for something like this (four hour easy is two up two down isn't it?! Just checking in with other posters on this!)

E 06.00 formula
A 06.30-08.00 includes playing and solids
S 08.00-10.00
E 10.00 formula
A 10.30-12.00 includes playing and solids
S 12.00-14.00
E 14.00 formula
A 14.30-16.00
S 16.00-16.30 cat nap
E 16.30 solids
A bath bottle (formula) book and bed (or what ever your bed time routine is)
S 18.00 down for the night
Could do cluster feed or dream feed option before 23.00 if her intake has been low during the day.

In looking at the easy you posted she's having six hours of day time sleep which amazing but it is a lot to then expect her to sleep twelve hours at night. A good place to start might be to bring her first nap earlier (two hours after waking for the day) and cap it at two hours....

And I agree with previous posts about reducing the third nap massively to a cat nap of 20-30 mins...

[annamomof3]

Hi again - takes me a few days sometimes to get back on respond and reply! However THANK YOU for the credit - no- its me 24 hours a day 4 days per week - 3 nights i have limited help but never anything more than a diaper change or a bath or two =)

Since I have identified the night waking and the swing prop to be my main issues I have made the following changes and see a slight difference. A now has this vibration device so although it's still a "prop" it is helping! It looks like a racket and slips under her cribs mattress. IT vibrates the entire mattress and shuts of after 15 minutes. She has napped successfully there x4 naps so I am hopeful she will sleep through the night. The ultimate issue is when she wakes she wakes L and when he wakes my N wakes (Arianna, LJ and Nick)then the whole night is a wash! Next I have significantly decreased her breakfast and dinner intake and notices she ate 1-2 ounces more for the day, tonight I will push the dinner to 5pm and try a bed-bath routine to get them both down by 7PM. A is full of energy though allday. Could she be overtired? I mean she literally has to take on a tummy time of 30 minute or a bouncing time or just being held and rocked until she passes out. I feel doubtful but I know everything needs to be tried until I knock it!

On another hand my L no matter his fluctuation in ounces of formula or times of solids - he sleeps so no issues however today he has significantly cut back his formula intake (UGH!) and his first nap on the 4 hour easy was a cat nap of maybe 40 minutes SO far this was the end of L's EASY yesterday and today
E 7PM dinner
A 8PM bath
E 830 6oz
S 845P-6AM
A 6am
E 615,  7oz
A630-730
E 730 breakfast
S 830-915
E945 3oz!!!???
S10....not awake yet?
So do you suggest I do this new "earlier" to bed routine for both twins? They both wake at 6am so from what I read you say the max awake time should leave them with a 12-14 hours night?

I will also try to cut the naps she takes to cat naps  - I think this is key - thank you!

Lastly to reply - I do intend on them sharing a room but I can't until she sleeps through or she wakes her brother L. Ultimately A will have her own little room and L will bunk with N once I feel I can! I don't trust my N just yet - not sure when I Will!

[babybarr]

Come one and all to this thread for some general chatting

Sleep and EASY support for twins and multiples

(((hugs))) and sounds like you have a plan.  I had a rocking device for my two for a long while...

[Uglybethy]

Hi Anna just quickly as I've only got a few minutes now do not cut all the naps to cat naps... Only the last nap of the day. The first two naps need to be two hours long each ok

[Uglybethy]

Hi Anna I'm back again... Hope your day panned out well enough.

Congrats for getting A to nap in her crib. The vibration can be weaned if and when you are ready

Just to reiterate about the napping advice... You should still aim for two restorative naps of two hours and then an optional third nap which should just be a cat nap (20-30mins long). This will optimize your chance of helping her sleep through the night by avoiding her becoming overtired.

In looking at the easy routines you've posted for both little ones it strikes me that you are doing an amazing job of responding to both babies as soon as they need it. So, as soon as they wake they are fed, then have activity time and then put down to sleep as soon as you see what might be sleep cues, then when they wake you feed agin etc etc. This is the best way to start them off on the easy routine for sure and well done for keeping this up for so long but for your sanities sake (as well as the babies needs) I'm wondering if a better balance could be struck between rushing to attend to their needs immediately vs say knowing what is best for them and pushing them a little bit towards that. The example I can think of would be if a baby wakes 40 minutes into a nap and you know that a truly restorative nap is 1.5-2hrs long then rather than get them up then and feed you would work on resettling them back into sleep. That way they will wake up well rested and take a good feed on waking, rather than a pidly 2-3 oz which won't see them through the next nap. I hope that makes sense? So with L today, when he woke from that first nap at 9.45 I'd have resettled him back to sleep until 10.30 before feeding him.

Let's keep going with this tweaking... Like you say it's one step at a time.

Keep us posted as to how your night went. Also, please join us if you'd like on the twins and multiples thread (Laura posted a link above)!

[4isstillnighttime]

I have a lot of admiration for you coping with twins and a toddler on your own - I struggle just with my two!!

[annamomof3]

Another rough night with A last night, woke at 2:30 am even after I cut her last nap to a cat nap of 30 minutes. However her two restorative naps were not 2 hours we had a dentist errand and it messed things up. I realize now that these tweaks in routines require a lot of attention in the home! Fortunately we have the luxury to be home more now until N starts nursery school in Sept so I have to do all the work now. A, also did not eat much formula yesterday or solids maybe 4 TBSP total and 21 ounces for the day - I also notice shes chewing on her fingers, pacifier toys anything terribly I think shes badly teething. I placed both twins @ 7PM in their cribs A, with her vibration device which helped. she slept there until her wake at 230am. Ofcorse L, slept beautifully! When she woke I tried to soothe her with a pacifier and belly rubs but she continued and I was not going to allow her to wake L. I took her to her Swing and she continued, I tried water, pacifier for almost 1 hour until my hubby woke (who is overtired working two jobs). This caused me to give-in and I knew she wanted to eat - with 1 ounce of formula she settled back down after 15 more minutes until 6AM. A, woke and again drank a measly 3.5  ounces. L, woke shortly after and drank is usual 6.5-7oz morning bottle. Come summer I will have my hubby home Fulltime since he's off so I have to truck through these dreadful nights until he and I can alternate soothing techniques at 230am and probably have to let her cry it out. I have to mention she did sleep through the night at 4 month's but then she was in-taking almost 5 ounces at a feed. I don;t know what changed! I am so exhausted I feel like my auto pilot is starting to go  - I'm becoming forgetful everyday but I know this has to end sooner or later...just wish I had a magic wand. Thanks Lily raising all 3 is way tougher than working at my old job! I miss work some days but others I realize that this is "sweet" work and I am the best cut out for the job and wouldn't change things for the world. Both twins are down for their first restorative....A, refused her crib and I couldn't sit with her as my 3 y/o son decided to drink bubbles this morning. So A, in her swing, L, in his crib - lets hope for a full restorative.....Hope everyone day goes smoothly and we all can get some rest! It's a happy 73 degree's YAY!  Should I be posting in the other thread that Barr posted? I feel as if we are in our own discussion but if you want to switch I will, let me know. I will take all the advice and support I can get these days!
~Anna

[babybarr]

This thread is good for your specific help hun.  The other thread is general chit chat for us all!

BW doesn't agree with cry it out and we can help you find other techniques to help.  The first thing I personally would do is drop her solids pretty much altogether - that may not be agreed with but even at this age formula should be the main source and if she's not taking much then I'd drop the solids for now.  Also I wouldn't offer her water either just milk until we see it creeping up again.

[Uglybethy]

I can see that you're at the end of your tether with this so I'm sending you massive hugs to get through the day today.

Is A gaining weight and growing ok? I'm assuming she is as you mentioned in a previous post that dr is not worried. Because as long as she is that you don't need to worry too much about fluctuations in formula intake. Having said that I think that in order to sleep through the night around 28 oz of formula is usually needed. All babies are different but that is what I aimed for with my two. If I knew they'd had that during the day then I felt happy to persevere with other sleep finding techniques during the night.

You did really well at 2.30 this morning with A. You tried to resettle her for an hour before coming to the conclusion that she was hungry... And tbh I would have thought the same thing if it was one of my two, but for her to only take one oz show us that it is not hunger. I can see that you imagine that letting her cry it out might be an option for you but given that you've come this far and not let them cry let's us know that this probably won't happen! And that's a good thing as you don't want her trust in you to be broken.

The first thing I'm wondering about is whether that 2.30 am wake is pain from teething. Have you tried and pain relief for her when she goes to bed?

The second thing is whether that 2.30am wake up is habit, in which case you can try a technique called wake to sleep, which is where you go in to baby before she usually wakes (1.30 or 2.00) and gently nudge her so that she stirs and goes back to sleep. You do this for three or four nights in a row to break the habit. But make sure she is having enough day time formula first. And I would all eliminate the pain factor first too.

There's no need to post about this in the other thread, that's just for general twin mummies chit chat! You are right, it is appropriate for this thread to stay here

[annamomof3]

Ok ! I will hop in on the other thread soon when i have more time to read! I don't want to let her cry it out I never did I just think that would be my last resort option. Last visit peditrician said shes growing nicely - I will call to schedule another appointment she should be due soon anyway. I even called my pediatrician she said not to worry about formula fluctuation since she's eating. However I too thought to discontinue solids altogether just to see if this would help. Maybe offer a spoonful and that's it ? Or altogether stop? Will stopping hinder any swallowing- her desire to chew  - hold / pick up learning curve? I know how important formula is especially when i quit Breast feeding after 2.5 months. I also have tried these homepathic tablets that dissolve under babies tongue / mouth upon contact but I can tell you she's a tough cookie NOTHING helps - she still up for that 230-3am wake up. She is def a creature of a habit that bad mommy created !

[Uglybethy]

You are not a bad mummy!!!!!!!! Fact!
Are you willing to get anything stronger for pain eg infant acetanphetamine or infant ibuprofen?
I agree with you that you also need to offer opportunity for your little ones to explore taste and texture with food and you can still do that but maybe to optimize her formula intake you could offer her regular formula feeds and also a top up feed just before giving her some finger foods to try for breakfast lunch and dinner?? Remember food before one is just for fun so it's not about how much she's getting more so how many different tastes and textures she can be exposed to....

[annamomof3]

Thanks Bethy! I think I am going to allow her a few baby spoon full no more though....they both slept for a whopping two hours for their first  nap  - the noon to 2pm didnt work well nothing but fussy babies and cat naps.....they are both wondering why they didnt get a bottle - i am hopeful for a big feed from both at 2pm then they better nap!!!

[4isstillnighttime]

Anna, I haven't got time to go through properly at the moment but you are definitely doing a great job! Any twins is tough!! I'll look properly and see if I can help later but for now I agree with the others and think you should cut down on solids. Is she good with finger food? When mine started wanting loads of night feeds I started baby led weaning which meant they are less but it was all much more fun. Then they had more milk and everything got a bit better  . And now they feed themselves so I can sit back with a coffee!!

[Uglybethy]

I also did Blw and so glad I did! Maybe worth looking into??
Keep going, like lily said you're doing a fantastic job!

[annamomof3]

Hello ladies, another evening with a 330 by my little girl. this time since i cut her mush drastically , she at a full five ouncer at 3 am. I started with one then tried to soothe she didnt stop. I figured she needed it. However I am extra curious about BLW I never started thisearly with my first. A, can sit, pick up and put things into her mouth without a problem, she is also starting to crawl while her brother is sleeping and eating mush beautifully but he can't crawl, sit up or put things to his mouth as well as she can. What foods do you suggest to start with? Choking is a concern but I know that can happen at anytime really. Maybe this is the key - maybe shes ready! I will post her forumla intake today  - already shes drinking more - cross your fingers!

[Uglybethy]

Hi Anna
Yes she must have been hungry! They key now is to take that five ounces and try and add it to her day time intake....
Any time from six months or when they can sit unaided is good for blw. I started with avocado but it's less about what you start with and more about whether the shape of the food you're providing is developmentally appropriate. So at this age everything needs to be finger-like in shape so that they can pick it up and move it up to their mouth. And cook things soft enough so that they can take chunks off them. Avocado and banana are naturally soft enough but sweet potatoes and carrots and broccoli need to be cooked enough. But sticks of cucumber are great for teething pain! It's quite cooling. You can also do loaded spoons of yoghurt or oatmeal  (or anything sticky enough to stick to a spoon) and just put the spoon on their tray... It's fun watching them figure out that one end has something really good on it!
There's a blw support thread here on the bw boards or there's tones of info on line and on YouTube, as well as the blw books.
Let us know how your daytime goes today. Keeping everything crossed for you.

[annamomof3]

Hi Bethy, Hi all,
Hope everyone is doing well and healthy! I have had a stretch of great nights and tough ones. Arianna is still waking at night same time but lately has been going back down after I pacify her rub her belly. LJ is a good ol' eater and sleeper. Both are still on a 4 hour easy but more so Arianna - any deviations or changes to the day don't hinder LJ's nights - they hinder hers so I stricter with her. I am doing more BLW and have chalked up all of this crazy night stuf to teething. She is in pain! I know becuase I tried baby Orajel and tylenol and it seem to aid temporarily. Not for long though.....Her intake has increased but she barely eats food (mush) or finger foods....shes a peanut. Today they both woke at 530a took a bottle and literllally passed out until 830am (however I was away most of yesterday so I believe they had a tougher day with daddy) I let them sleep in. I am confused though about whether LJ is onto a new easy perhaps a 5 now he has dropped a bottle and eats a lot more and sleeps through. What do you think? Also I have moved LJ into share a room with his older brother. Worked! When she wakes she sreams but no one wakes just me!  If babies slept in should I have offered formula bottle at 830a or foods? Suggestions please! THK U!

[Uglybethy]

Hi Anna
Wow it sounds like things have improved a lot. Well done you! Well done babies!
I'm sorry it's taken me a while to reply... We have had a few full on days (and nights) with viruses here.
What did you do in the end with formula after you'd let them go back to sleep? It would be usual to give them a top up formula feed again on waking, to maintain the EAS but I guess what ever works for you.
And regarding little boy and five hour easy, if it were me I would wait until little girls was ready too before a transition, or I'd push little girl to transition with little boy, but that is because I needed my two to be synchronised.

[annamomof3]

Hello! Hope everyone is heathy and babies are well! My DD is still waking - instead of 2-3am its now 445am for a feed. I can't figure her out for the life of me - I have tried everything and I am starting to fade into the "my daughter has been waking every night since shes born" but I know this will end one day! I hope.... Any advice you can offer to push and early waker back onto a normal schedule is much appreciated. BOth twins are relatively waking earlier each and every day. However I moved the boys in to share a room so its been better but I know when she starts, it wakes him still if I am not quick enough.

[Uglybethy]

Wow so she's dropped the 2/3am feed... Well done baby girl! I remember that so well, but then they wake around 4.30/5.00 and can't get back to sleep because they are too hungry but need to go back to sleep because is too early to get up! It doesn't last for long. You could either try just giving a few ounces when she wakes and then a full feed when she wakes to start the day, or a full feed at when She wakes and then a top up when you wake to start the day... To maintain the EAS pattern.
That early wake up is usually gone in a few weeks though so hang in there.