HELP Early Wakings vs Night Wakings vs Early Bedtime

[JamieD2013]

Good morning!
I have gotten some great advice on here, so thank you! My problem is that as soon as I think I've solved a problem, a new one starts or an old one comes back.

My 7 month old is currently on a 4-4.5 hour EASY. He can usually stay awake for 2 hrs and 45 minutes (sometimes only 2.5 hours, rarely 3) and eats every 4.5 hours. He takes three naps (which includes one, 15 minute cat nap) His naps range from 45 minutes - 2 hours. When he wakes after 45 minutes, I am able to get him back to sleep after about 30 minutes of rocking. He is NEVER consistent with naps, no matter what I do! I was OK with that as long as he was sleeping great at night ...

About a month ago, we finally made some great improvements in night sleep. He was sleeping until about 5 or 6 (sometimes 6:30!) without waking up for a feeding. This week, however, he's back to his old  tricks. Waking up around 4 a.m. and not falling back asleep until 6:30 or so, or waking up several times at night.

Last night was simply awful: he was up from 10-11, 12-1 and 4-5. I'm very confused, because he took awesome naps yesterday and seemed to have a really good schedule. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong!

Here was his EASY yesterday, and what I would consider to be the "ideal" for him right now:

WU: 6 a.m.
E: 8 oz at 6:15
E: Solids at 7:15
S: 8:50

A: 10:06
E: 11 (4 oz and solids)
S: 1 pm

A: 2:27
E: 3:01 (8 oz)
S: 4:45

A: 5 p.m.
E: 5:30, 2 oz (this feeding is optional. I only feed him at this time if he acts hungry, and he was!)
E: 6 p.m. (solids)

BATH: 7 p.m.
EAT: 7:15
ASLEEP "FOR THE NIGHT": Around 7:45 (For past several nights I could leave him awake in his crib and he would fall asleep on his own. Last night, I had to rock him until he was very drowsy)

Dreamfeed: 8 oz at 10 p.m.  (We haven't done a dream feed in a while, but since he was pretty hard to get to sleep after he woke up at 10, we thought he might be going through a growth spurt and fed him. While he did take a full feeding, he didn't fall asleep easily).

Like I said, he was up A LOT last night and I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. I would consider it a fluke (the night before was perfect!) but earlier this week he had some trouble during the night, too. Not nearly as bad as last night, but several wakings and a very early wake ups.

Here are my questions:

I've thought about getting rid of the afternoon cat nap, and have tried several times thinking the late nap was making him UT, but I end up having to push his bedtime up, which makes him wake up ridiculously early. (I've kept a normal bedtime and he is way OT) (I think he only needs about 10-11 hours of sleep each night.) I am fine with the early waking, but it leads to early naps, and even earlier bedtimes. Even if we move to a three hour easy, if he wakes up at 5 he would be in bed by 5 or 6, right? Not sure how to handle that.

I'm just at a total loss! PLEASE HELP! I THRIVE on routine and this is driving me CRAZY!!!

[JamieD2013]

Bump?

[jessmum46]

Hi there, sorry you've not had any other replies as yet.  We do (as mods) try not to respond immediately to allow other members to jump in and share their experience, but please be assured that we do check in each day and do our best not to leave anything unanswered for an excessive amount of time

I think you're thinking along the right lines when you mention dropping the catnap.  At 7 months I'd have thought with a little push you could get there quite easily - you only really need about 3h A time to do it.  The day you posted he actually seemed to take slightly UT naps on just under 3h A time, so I'd bet he could handle 3h (and possibly a touch more) no issue if you give him time to get used to it.  The late catnap really starts to mess things up at this age and you start getting UT NWs if you use it too often - plus the day gets too long (on the example you gave it was nearly 14h).

Have you read the sticky on the 3-2? All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

I would suggest that starting tomorrow you aim for 3h A time and re-evaluate after 3 days.  Perhaps you could keep a log and post it here so we can help you tweak?  Only allow a catnap if the second nap finishes before 3pm, and keep it very short (15 mins) and try to keep the day to a 13h maximum on 3 nap days ie BT is 13h after WU.  On two nap days, aim for asleep for the night 3h after second nap finishes. That might mean a short day but that's ok and normal during a transition.

With early BT - I am a big fan but it has to be used properly or it won't work.  The big mistake that many people make is not going early enough which means that although BT is early, LO is already overtired and therefore has a disturbed or short night, leading to an early wakeup. And you get into an early WU/early bed cycle which can be hard to get out of.  If you're brave enough to go really early, you can sometimes be rewarded with a fantastic night (we've had 13h or more sometimes!) which can really get you back on track

[JamieD2013]

Thank you for your reply! I totally understand not wanting to jump in to soon. I'm an impatient, exhausted person so no need to apologize.

We had another rough night last night. He had a short morning nap yesterday due to my son's preschool program falling right at nap time, so I let him cat nap. Today we pushed his morning A time to 3 hours, but he was begging for a nap this afternoon after a 2.5 hour A time, so I caved. He woke up after 45 minutes and I held him for about 5 to get him back to sleep.

I'll take your suggestions and if things are still wonky I'll post on Tuesday.

Thanks so much!!
Jamie

[jessmum46]

Ha, impatient and exhausted pretty much describes all of us!  No worries

Hope the next few days go well, will look forward to an update x

[JamieD2013]

Quick question:

We did the new schedule (3 hr A time, bed by 6:30) yesterday, and we still had a pretty terrible night. I think that he has figured out that if he cries, we will come! Should I do pick up put down/shush pat for these wake ups, or do whatever it takes to get him back to sleep  until he settles into the new routine?

THANKS!

[jessmum46]

If he's normally an independent sleeper then I would use whatever sleep training method you've used in the past to settle him ie shh pat or PUPD . You wouldn't expect to see an improvement in just one day as there will be some overtiredness, but hopefully with consistency you will start getting some longer naps and he will catch up.

[JamieD2013]

We've been picking him up and rocking him at night (AP, I know) because it was the quickest way to get him back to sleep if shush pat didn't work. I'll try shush/pat first and if that doesn't work I'll pick him up. I'm worried about bad habits, but I guess good sleep is the priority for now, and we can focus on habits later? Thanks for your help!

[JamieD2013]

Ok. It's 2:22 am and DS hS woken up crying a grand total of six times since I laid him down at 6:30. His EASY has been almost the exact same for two days:

With a 3 hr A time in the am, a 2 hr 45 min A time in afternoon and a bedtime around 6:30.

I need to know how long the average 3:2 transition takes, because it seems like things are getting worse instead of better and I don't want to continue doing the same things with absolutely no results. I am EXHAUSTED and it seems like DS is getting more OT by the minute.

[jessmum46]

The 3-2 can take a while, a few weeks to get it all ironed out  but if he's not settling independently, whether that's relying on rocking or shh pat then I don't think you'll get an improvement in NWs until you tackle sleep training as well.  I'd go for PUPD at this age - there is a specific board for help with the technique if you need it

Holding onto too-short A times for too long can also prolong the 3-2.  What was his EASY/nap lengths the past two days with those A times?

[JamieD2013]

Ughhhhh. This is awful! He's so over tired now I don't know where to start with sleep training. His naps yesterday weren't bad, but they weren't great. The first one was 1 hr, 12 min. The second one was 1 he, 45 min but I had to lengthen it by holding him.

[jessmum46]

I wouldn't have thought he'd be that OT with those naps really, they were pretty decent all things considered  . What do you want to do about sleep training?  Is it something you want to tackle right now? Not saying you have to, but you can't put NWs down to just routine if he's not settling independently.

If his first nap is consistently in that 1h10-15 kind of range after 3 days or so I'd bump the first A time up another 10-15 mins - that's a typical UT nap. 

(((Hugs))) transitions are tough (DD is nap-dropping at the moment so I sympathise) but you will get through. The trick for the 3-2 is to get onto sensible A tines that give decent length naps and get yourself and LO out of the tired cycle x

[KookyK]

Playing devils advocate on early bedtimes I find if my DS 9 months goes to bed before 6.30 our day starts v v v early!!! No matter what has happened!  Good luck with it all!

[JamieD2013]

Regarding sleep training - I want to do whatever will get him (and us!) some rest. I just don't know where to start!

Here are the props that we use, and they haven't been a problem until recently:

Holding when he wakes up: If he isn't OT, I can usually put him in his crib and he will fall asleep on his own. However, if he is OT (which he has been a lot recently due to the nap transition) he needs to be soothed to sleep by holding. I also hold him if he wakes up early from his naps in order to help him make it through the transition.

Pacifier: This usually isn't a problem at all. If it falls out and wakes him up, I used to be able to just run in, put it back, and he would fall right asleep. I usually only had to do this once a night. Now that he's OT most of the time, though, it's harder for him to fall asleep without it.

White Noise: This is a prop that I'm totally OK with. My oldest still uses white noise, and it helps drown out a lot of noise.

I think our biggest hurdle right now is holding to sleep when he wakes up. I'm willing to do PU/PD, but I'm afraid it will make him even more OT. What do you think? PU/PD def. won't work for naps, because it will just wake him up even more instead of soothing him back to sleep.

THANK YOU again for your help. You have no idea how much it means!

[jessmum46]

I agree PUPD can be harder for naps, especially when you're trying to resettle as LO has had a bit of sleep and therefore has a lot of energy to fight back with.  I did a lot of holding to resettle naps during the 3-2 but DD always fell asleep independently at the start so I was less worried it would cause an issue. 

I guess there are two ways you can look at this.  One way is that he may well have developed a holding or paci prop, even if he wasn't dependent before, and therefore needs to have a period of re-learning to settle independently.  The other way to look at it is as you said - that he is more OT than usual at the moment (could well be a build up from wonky naps over a period of time) and is needing extra help at this time. 

With that in mind, you could stick with getting him to sleep by whatever means, whilst trying to push his A times up fairly quickly (every 3-4 days or so) to get to a point where he is having decent naps.  At that point if the routine is good but the frequent NWs continue, you'll know it isn't *just* OT and can choose what to do about it.  PUPD is a good tool but you can't use it with a paci unless he can replug himself (he may be getting close at his age?), and if you do use it you will need to be conscious of the age-appropriate technique and keep holding to a minimum since that's the prop you're trying to break.

Or, the other option is you push through the OT and use PUPD (with same caveats about paci/holding time) at the same time as getting the routine sorted, as sleep training inevitably does lead to some OT which can't be helped.  At some point the tiredness usually starts working in your favour though.  The downside of doing it this way is that if it really is just all OT, you'd have put you both through some frustrating hours of PUPD when all he needed was to catch up on sleep.

I'm not with you and I can't make the judgement call - what's your gut instinct?