HELP Early Wakings vs Night Wakings vs Early Bedtime

[JamieD2013]

I go back and forth about it honestly. He seems to fall asleep AS SOON as I pick him up at night. Earlier in the night we can just do Shush Pat or pick him up for a few seconds and he settles back down on his own. But as the night progresses I have to hold him for longer periods of time and he wakes up for more frequently. Having said all that, I do think it's a OT issue with a little prop issue sprinkled on top? Lol

Would it be beneficial to use holding as a last resort? Try everything first but not to to the point that he gets overworked up and is harder to get back to sleep as a result?

[jessmum46]

 Hmm, that's a tough one  I think my feeling would be if you think it's a prop, you either have to use it straight away, or not use it at all.  It's kind of like if you were trying to stop feeding to sleep - if you did everything else and then an hour later gave in and fed because LO was tired, you'd have just reinforced the message that protesting = getting fed.  And LO would be likely to protest even longer next time.  But it has to be your call.

How did the naps go today?

[JamieD2013]

Thanks for all your encouragement. While last night was far from perfect, it was a little better as we got a solid six hour stretch (10:30-4:30). He fussed off and on in his sleep but did fall back asleep without us going in during that stretch. 6:30 to 10:30 and 4:30-6 were different stories, but he peed out of his diaper at the 4:30 wake up so I'm sure that's why he woke.

I think we do need to commit to not holding him, I just don't know where to start. We are already so exhausted and he absolutely resists PU/PD and shush pat. For S/P, he just rolls to his belly and fusses. I know that it will work if we give it time, but I'm so afraid of making him absolutely miserable and OT.

Here's how yesterday went:

WU/E (bottle): 6:48
E: (solids) 7:15
S: 9:50 (fell asleep independently and slept thru)

WU: 11:07
E: 11:15 (bottle), Solids: 12:30
S: 2:14 (fell asleep on his own,woke up at 40 minute mark, held him for 10 minutes and fell back asleep)
W: 3:55
E: (bottle) 4 p.m., Solids 5:30

Bath: 6 p.m.
Bottle: 6:17
Asleep: 6:25

Today followed a similar pattern except he woke up an hour earlier. I was able to stretch his A times to 3 hr and 15 minutes for the morning and 3 hr. and 7 minutes for the afternoon. (He was seriously overtired for the afternoon nap.)

WU: 6 a.m.
Eat:  Bottle: 6:15, Solids 7:10
S: 9:16

WU: 10:41
E: (bottle) 10:45, Solids 12:20
S: 1:51 (woke up at 45 minute mark, held him and tried to put him down very drowsy but awake. Woke up. Held him again and put him down very, very drowsy (almost asleep) and he slept thru nap.

A: 3:50
E: Bottle, 3:54 Solids 5:30

Bath: 6:15
Bottle: 6:35
Asleep for the night: 6:53 (fell asleep independently after I left the room)

Does that seem like it's an improvement? To me his feeding schedule is a little wonky, but he will not eat if I feed him more frequently that 4.5 hours.

Speaking of feedings, he is eating SO much better than he was just a few weeks ago. I was having a hard time getting 22 ounces in per day. Then, he voluntarily dropped his dream feed (wouldn't take more than an ounce so we gave up), and we decided to stop his 4-5 a.m. feed. I think that really helped him with his daily intake. It's almost as if his body finally realized he wasn't getting enough calories since he dropped the early am and dream feedings. Do you think the sudden change in feedings is contributing to this? I didn't think anything of it since he was eating so much more all together (and since he dropped the dream feed on his own) but I'm suddenly wondering if it's a food issue now.

Again, THANK YOU SO MUCH!

[jessmum46]

That's great progress!!  I'd definitely stick with 3h15 for the first A time for the next few days as it looks like that's getting you a pretty decent nap . Maybe go with closer to 3h for the second A for now as it looks like he's not quite managing as long there yet.  But really glad you got that longer stretch overnight , let's hope it's his body adjusting to the longer awake times and you'll actually start seeing some catch-up on that OT soon.

The feeds may also have helped

[JamieD2013]

Good news! He only woke up once last night at 9:15 and slept thru the night until 5:50! (His diaper literally exploded from being so soaked)

However ...

Yesterday we had to give him a cat nap because he took two terrible naps. In your opinion, could he still need the later nap? Here's how our day went:

WU/E: 6:15
9:08: Asleep (he was exhausted from being up all night I guess)
WU: 9:48
E: 11:15
S: 12:47
A: 2:01
E: 3:45
CN: 4:30
A:4:45
Sleep for the night: 6:40

[jessmum46]

Part of the transition process is going backwards and forwards a bit between 2 and 3 naps.  So yesterday yes I would have offered a catnap.  But if the other two naps had been better I wouldn't.  I had a 3pm cutoff when we did it - so if second nap finished before 3pm, we'd try for a catnap.  Otherwise we'd do early BT 3h after 2nd nap finished. 

I'm glad you had a good night overall it looks to me like things are headed in the right direction - what do you think?

[JamieD2013]

I def. think we've seen some improvement! Hopefully we'll keep going in the right direction! Thanks!!!

[jessmum46]

Keep me posted - you're doing a great job

[JamieD2013]

We're still having a really rough time ... He was up from 9:30-11 off and on and then restless/awake from 2:30 until morning.

Can you help me to identify symptoms of OT vs UT. Is there a chance that he really still needs the cat nap and that I'm extending his A times too much? I've read some sample schedules from other sites and I'm noticing that some people recommend a 7 month old only have an A time of 2 hours with a possible cat nap in the afternoon.

My DS does take a longer nap when we keep him up 3 hr and 15 minutes in the morning, but seems to sleep poorly in the afternoon no matter how long he stays up. Is that a sign of OT from the morning A time?

Also, should I be worrying about the clock, too? For example, should I try to get him used to sleeping at the same times everyday and having the same bed time every night? Would this help get his biorhythms straightened out?

I'm seriously considering hiring a sleep consultant from The Baby Sleep Site if things don't get better soon.

I know you're probably feeling like a broken record at this point, but I'm just not seeing adequate improvement with the suggestions that have been made.

[jessmum46]

Sorry you don't feel things have improved, it looked like you'd been making good progress. 

Like I said before all transitions take time and (at least in my experience) are not fixed in a few days.  Usually there comes a point where LO is overtired without the catnap, but undertired with it which then leads to more OT from short naps or short nights.  So yes some days LO may need the catnap and other days he may do ok without.  I'm happy to look at what's been happening over your past 2-3 days if you wanted to post it?

By all means do try shorter A times if you feel they would help, although personally I'd have thought trying 2h at 7 months would cause more issues than it would solve.  All sleep theories/routines are slightly different and anticipate LOs having longer or shorter naps at different times.  Some work on set times which are theoretically suited to a LOs natural biorhythms - for some this works really well.  But as this is a BW site it's quite difficult for me to suggest which might suit your LO if you choose not to try the A times approach.  I guess the best advice I can give is consistency whatever you choose - you can't try and do a bit of everything.  Ultimately the very essence of BW is listening and responding to your LOs needs, it's not about A times so if there's another way that might suit you and LO better then I'd say go for it

[weaver]

ITA with Katherine about consistency and listening to your baby.  *You* are the one there with him, you can see what's going on, and you know him best. 

The essence of BW is that everyone can learn to be a BW, it's all about asking the right questions.  In that spirit, the mods on this site are all volunteers - all of us have jobs, children, and households to run. We do the very best we can in our spare time to help others learn how to ask the right questions and trouble-shoot in their situations.  But we absolutely do not, and cannot, provide *the* answer, simply because there is no one size fits all answer, each family is different, each baby is different.  We can only offer guidance to the expert - and the expert on your baby is you

[JamieD2013]

I'm so sorry if I came off ungrateful. I understand that you all are volunteering your time and cannot possibly have a quick fix for every situation. I believe my last posts were out of sheer desperation after a very long week with little to no sleep.

We have good nights and bad nights and, since I'm an impatient person, I want more good nights!

Thank you, again, for your time and advice. I'll keep plugging along until we find something that works for us. =)

[jessmum46]

More hugs, sleep deprivation is miserable . We've all been there at the end of our tether with it.

Do keep posting if you think we can help or just for some support - always happy to sympathise and offer a hand to hold even if we can't magic it better

[weaver]

Totally understand the impatience and frustration.  The hardest thing sometimes is to take a step back, maybe that's where we come in? Deep breaths, you're doing really well.

[JamieD2013]

Thank you =) Is there a board for helping moms develop patience? I'm running out of it, and my whole family is starting to notice!!