7 month old awake times after iron defiency

[Emily13th]

So my boy is 7 months, born 5 weeks prem, and had low iron levels which caused him to only be able to stay awake for an hour max at a time and then he would sleep for 2 hours, sometimes more during the day.  His iron levels are now back in a normal range, but I'm having trouble with how long he can now stay awake for and short naps.  Here is an example of our day -

E - 7am BF
A - 7.15
E - 7.45 solids
S - 8am
A - 8.45
S - 9.45
And so on, BF every 3-4 hours depending on his naps, until 6pm bedtime.  With 2 night feeds.  He is also good at self settling.

I'm wondering if the first short nap is because he isn't tired enough, as he wakes up cooing, not crying.  I wait for him to resettle, but usually it turns into a I'm bored cry.  If I try and resettle him he is wide awake!  When I put him down at 8, he has usually been yawning or rubbing his eyes and getting cranky.  Could this be 'learned' tiredness from when he had low iron, or are they signs of boredom?!

I'm getting fed up of the 4 -5 short naps a day, would be great to consolidate them into 2 - 3 longer ones!
Should I just go cold turkey and keep him up for longer, even if he gets super cranky?

[ZacsMumme]

Is the first E also his WU for the day.
At 7 mths most A times are around the 3 hr mark with two naps through the day and BT approx 11-13 hrs after WU.  (All child dependent )

So yes, I do think it's ut I also think you need to bump those A times up at least 2 hrs before that first nap. He may act tired as he is used to going down but go out, distract him, or give him some food and do a puzzle when he usually would go down to distract him and I think you will see a big change in his sleep habits once those a As are pushed out.

I'm going to move you to EASY though if that's ok as they can help you with a plan for your/his day so you can work out solids/milk feeds between the naps too

[Emily13th]

Thanks ZacsMumme, you have been a great help, all good to move this thread!  Yup that first E is his wake up for the day.  I'll try and stretch out his A times, I tried today for the first one, got to 1.5 hours and he was getting ridiculous, and ended up with a short nap again!  Have the day free tomorrow so will take him for a long and interesting walk in the morning once he gets to the crazy stage!

[ZacsMumme]

It is hard, just remember it's his body clock adjusting not real tired signs

[Buttonbobs]

Hiya, I've has a quick read through and do agree that A times probably need a shift. I agree with Sara that distraction and extra snacks will help you through the grotty phase. It will take a few days at least to get him used to not sleeping at that time but will be worth the effort.

Can you post your last couple of days in EAS format so we can keep an eye on you and spot any helpful tweaks.

[Emily13th]

Hi Buttonbobs
Here is today, we had to go out in the afternoon, so not the best example day!  I'll post tomorrow as well, Wed was not a good day, was recovering from a stomach bug so had no energy to be resettling.
BT 6pm
2 NW for BF, 10pm and 3am (always will wake at least once, but never the same time and always takes a full feed so I assume he is definitely hungry)
E/WU 6.30am BF
E - solids
S - 8am (settled in 5 mins)
A - 8.45 (talking to himself so left him until he started crying, about 15 mins, tried to settle him for 30 mins but he was wide awake, happy and very active)
E - 10am BF
S - 10.45 (this nap was a good one!)
A - 12.30pm
E - 1.30 BF
We went out to the baby clinic until 2.30pm
E - 2.30 finger food snack (doesn't eat that much unless banana is involved!  More for fun and learning)
S - 3pm
A - 3.35 (crying straight away, tried to resettle, failed!)
E - 5.00 BF
E - 5.30 solids
bath then S - 6.15pm

As you can see we are a bit all over the place!  He is really good at self settling for naps and bedtime.  This morning he was rubbing his eyes and yawning within 45mins of waking up so I pushed as far as I could to 8am, and by this point he was going nuts!  When he was younger he was pretty easy to resettle, but now he's like 'yipee!! Mum's here, get me outta this cot and let's play!', and when I don't he gets very worked up and pu/pd just seems to wind him up even more.
Thanks so much in advance!

[Buttonbobs]

Hey, sorry to hear you've been unwell, hope you're feeling much better soon.

Yes, the difficulty resettling, wanting to play and then getting annoyed when you try and resettle is very much a sign of UT. Be strong and keep pushing that A time out, he may be grotty but it will pass and after a few days of doing it it will get easier and once the A time is right he'll be easier to resettle.

[ZacsMumme]

((Hugs)) on the bug. That day looks ok too, well done on pushing A times see how you got a good nap off the longer A and shorter previous nap? All points to ut

[Emily13th]

Hello again!
So today was a little better, and thank goodness it was awesome weather for walks!  Here is our day -
 11.30pm + 5.00am NW, BF
WU/E - 7.00am BF
E - 7.45 Solids
S - 9.05 after taking him for a walk
A - 10am (woke up cooing and turned into a cry and tried to resettle)
E - 10.30 BF
E - 11.15 Solids
S - 12.30 (almost falling asleep in pram!) at 1.05 cried out for a couple of minutes but resettled himself
E - 2.10 BF
S - 3.30 was going nuts and nothing was making him happy so put him to bed, he settled instantly, but then 10 mins later woke up, started chatting and then crying, tried to resettle, failed!)
A - 4.00
S - 4.40 for 15mins but then started crying, and Dad was home and wanted to see him.
A - 5pm
E - 5.15 BF
E - 5.45 Solids
S - 6pm he was sooo happy to be put to bed!

So maybe the first A time is still a bit short, and then the second a bit long which meant he woke up at 35mins?  I struggle to know how long to keep him up after he has had a first short nap.  He settles almost straight away, so thankful for that after the first 4 months of rocking to sleep!  The afternoon went a bit wonky, maybe from putting him down too early again and him just getting a little sleep, but just enough to tide him over?

I'm going to be one healthy mumma after all this walking, and feeling much better after the bug, thank you!

[Emily13th]

And here is yesterday!
NW 10pm + 3am BF
WU/E - 7am
E - 8am Solids
S - 9.30
A/E - 11am BF
E - 12pm Solids
S - 1.30 (was falling asleep in pram again)
A - 2.10 tried to resettle but was wide awake, maybe he had a bit of a kip in the pram without me realising!
E - 2.30 BF
S - 4pm
A - 4.40
E - 5pm Solids
E - 5.30 BF
S - 6pm

Still trying to work out which way around to do solids and BF before bed.  Hope you have lovely weekends! x

[ZacsMumme]

How did last night go after that short A to 6pm BT? - it will be interesting to see if that was UT

The first nap looks good. it's just sorting out that next A time

[Emily13th]

Ah, I completely forgot to write that he didn't end up settling till almost 7pm last night, how funny that you picked up on that, just proves you ladies know your stuff!!  Must have forgotten to note it down and was on autopilot while I was typing!
How many days do you think it'll take him to get used to the new awake times?  Think we might have some top teeth on the way too, uh oh 

[Buttonbobs]

It can take more than three days to get settled ona new A time.

Oh no for the teeth, bear in mind it may be harder to shift to a new pattern if there's any discomfort and you may get NWs and EWs due to teething that make it hard to see what's going on with your easy. Let us know how you get on. X

[Emily13th]

Hiya!

Had a pretty good day today, apart from an early wake up and refusing a catnap at the end of the day.

WU/E - 5.30 BF
E - 6.45 solids
S - 8am
E - 9.30
E - 10.30 solids
S - 12.30pm (got back from mothers group late but it worked in our favour!)
E - 2pm
I then tried for a catnap at 3.30, 4 and then 4.30, but he wasn't having it. 
E - 5pm solids
E - 5.30 BF
S - 6pm and by this point he was going crazy, probably from his early wake up.

Hoping that if he wakes up as usual around 7am I won't even need to try for a catnap tomorrow.  Do you think the early wake up could be because we have changed his routine?  He isn't yawning now until about 1.5 - 2 hours awake time so he is definitely getting used to it!

[ZacsMumme]

Well done! Keep pushing the As lovely. I think the ew are from the early nap. I know it's a hard one to get out of (my ds1 did this silly business between 4-7 mths) but it will come right if you keep gently nudging. You need to get up to 2.5 hrs A min.

Also keep her in the dark till 6am at the earliest if you can. Treat anything before it as a NW. So A time starts at 6 too xx

[Buttonbobs]

I agree with this ^^^

Keep going honey, you're doing well! Xxx

[Emily13th]

So today has been a bit of a disaster!  First A time was 2.5 hours on the dot and he did a 35 min nap, woke up happy.  Then the next A time was 3 hours as we were out and I got a 30 min nap, woke up unhappy!  If he has a first short nap I should be reducing the second A time right?  I'm going to push for 3 hours first A time tomorrow morning, fingers crossed!  And should I be going for A times according to his corrected age, 6.5 months?

Also, if his A time is 3 hours, should I do a top up BF before the nap?

[Buttonbobs]

I agree with you that that first A of 2.5 hours with a happy WU from a shorter nap does sound like UT so the right thing to do is push out the A time again. A cautious approach would be to go for 2.45 for a few days and let LO adjust before trying 3 hours if you need longer again.

You might not need to do a too up milk feed, are you giving a breakfast of solids at some point in the A time too?

[Emily13th]

Yup we do brekkie in the first A time, usually an hour after BF.  Kept him up for 2.45 as you recommended and he called out at about 35mins, but went back off to sleep.  Really can't believe how quickly he has got used to these A times!  Is the second A time usually a bit longer, or should I keep to 2.45?

[Buttonbobs]

Yay! Great news.

Some children have different A times over the day. My DD always did better with similar length A apart from a long one to BT. I would try the same and if after a few days it does nothing tweak a little.

[Emily13th]

Hiya!  Hope you guys are well, thought I'd just post a little update on how we are going. 

We are almost at 3 hours awake time in the morning, and then the 2nd A time is still a bit wonky but some days we do get it right, and the day is so much easier when we do!  I've found he will let me know if I put him down too early as he won't settle, so I just get him back up for a cuddle and low key walk around the house for 10 mins and then he usually ready for bed.  We've got top teeth just about to pop through and bit of constipation so I'm not expecting every day to be perfect!!  Still waking to feed twice at night but we do get some nice 6-7 hour stretches occasionally!

I'm sure I'll be posting more questions soon 

Thanks so much for all the advice and words of encouragement, we have no family here and only one or two other friends with kids that live close so this forum has been great for me!

[ZacsMumme]

Well done, sounds like you and him 'get' each other too. I loved it when I got to that point with my boys where I knew - opps I'm a little early, or - he's ready for bed now!

For the constipation of you don't already you can start giving probiotics

[Buttonbobs]

Well done, sounds like you and him 'get' each other too.

This ^^^

What a lovely update, thank you for sharing

[Emily13th]

Haha it seems like whenever I post about his constipation he has a good old clear out day!!  I've been giving him prunes and pears and plenty of water and it seems to have got things moving.  I'll go and have a look at the probiotics though, sounds like a good idea!  Thanks!

[Emily13th]

And I'm back again!

Over the last 4 nights we have had terrible tantrums at bedtime, starting off mild and gradually building up to an hour and a half of screaming last night!  Been doing pu/pd, but when I pick him up he arches his back and pushes away from me.  I remember reading in the book that Tracey says to put the baby down if they fight you and when I do he screams even more!!  I've been making sure there is the appropriate A time before bed, and there has been no change in routine.  Last night he was awake for 4.5 hours after his last nap (that includes the tantrum).  If I take him out of his room he stops screaming and is all smiles.  I've been giving him panadol if it's his teeth, but I would have thought if it was pain he'd still be grizzly outside his room.

Could he not be tired enough?  And got overtired in the process last night?  Hoping for a good bedtime tonight!!

[Buttonbobs]

Could he not be tired enough?  And got overtired in the process last night?

Possibly, what's your EAS been like the last few days?

[Emily13th]

It's been really good, about 3 hours and 10 mins for each awake time, except the one before bed was still only 2.5 hours.  I stretched it out to 3 hours last night and he went straight off to sleep!  But I think I'm going to have to start capping the 2nd nap or his bedtime is going to get way too late at this rate.  Is it normal to have to extend awake times every week or so?

[ZacsMumme]

A times are quote low for his age, AND I think your about to hit a big sleep regression/developmental leap (8-10 mths) So I'd say you probably do need to look at trying to cap a nap or push an A time.

Certainly between 6-12 mths I felt with both boys I tweaked A times a lot, once on one nap and in the second year things settle a lot

As Naomi says, post your EAS and we can take a look if you like

[Emily13th]

I'm thinking you're right and his a times need to be bumped up as we've had a few short naps recently.  NLT including solids on the EAS just to make it easier to read!
Yesterday
WU/E- 7.10am
S- 10.20
A/E- 11.25
S- 2.30pm (I made this a time shorter because of the shorter first nap)
A/E - 4pm
S- 7pm

Settled beautifully for all naps and sleep, I can't remember what happened on the days he had horrible bedtimes, but the A times were definitely shorter before bed.

Today
WU/E- 7.10am
S- 10.20
A/E - 11.20
S- 2.20pm
A/E- 3.00pm
S- 6pm (figured earlier bedtime because of short second nap, but didn't settle till 6.30)

Am I right to bring bedtime forward if he has a short second nap?  Or should I be keeping a set time, say 7pm?

And is 2 BF over night still normal?  Sometimes he will only wake up once, other times I hear him wake but he goes back to sleep.  I figure that because he can self settle then he must be hungry/cold/hot etc.  usually though he is hungry!

[ZacsMumme]

Am I right to bring bedtime forward if he has a short second nap?  Or should I be keeping a set time, say 7pm?

All Los are different. You may find it also depends on the nap ie some Los can cope on a bit more A or same As on a 1hr nap, but not on a 40 min one yk? I tended to work on A times not set bt (but in a range ie 6.45-7.15ish) at this age. Bt became more set after 1 yr.

Not sure about bf overnight. My first was bf but didn't really have a nf from relatively early on (unless sick or teething etc to settle) but some do need bf for a while. Maybe post on the bf board?

[Emily13th]

So I'm back on struggle street!
He's now 9 months (8 months corrected) and it has all gone to pot!!  He started a wonder week 5 days ago, he's very sensitive to them and they are always accurate.  Then got a cold, and also had another routine blood test and his iron levels have dropped again, making me think his awake times should be adjusted.

He has stopped self settling, wants to be held to sleep, and is waking every 1/2 hour to 3 hours at night and is really hard to settle and seems wide awake but upset.  He isn't just grizzling either, it's full on tears and throwing himself about.  Day sleeps are very poor too, only getting 30 mins after 2.5 hours awake time so have been naughty and holding him for his naps just to try and get him some sleep to try and avoid OT.  Plus the fact he had a cold warranted some extra cuddles.  It's like his little brain can't switch off even when I do a longer wind down and very low key play during the day.

But then he teases me the other night and goes back to his normal wake once, have a feed and self settle back to sleep!

I'm trying to keep to our routine but should I be giving him less awake time due to the long NW?  I've been giving him panadol, and using white noise to no effect.

I have also tried pu/pd but this has never worked for him, it seems to annoy him even more so I can't even calm him down by pu as he throws his head back and arches his back like a tantrum so I can't even cuddle him.

Ugh, sorry this is so long, I think I just needed to vent a bit as it's driving me nuts, he changed literally overnight.  Should I be just APOP to get him through this cold and wonder week?  And trust in the fact that he does know how to self settle so he will eventually go back to it?  I do give him the chance at every sleep to do so but he is just not having it.

Also flying to London from Sydney for 3 weeks in 3 days, not looking forward to the flight, but at least my mum will be waiting for me to give us a hand!!