3year old EWs tried everything?! Desperate for help!

[bongabees]

Hi,

So I have a DS who is 3 and a DD who is 3 months. Baby doing great and STTN mostly. DS started EWs a few months ago. (Before DD was born).

We thought it was probably time to drop the nap, so we started cutting it and had some experiments with NNDs. BT got easier but the EWs continued. We even got NWs for the first time in ages.

Thought it might be a ST issue as we had been staying with him to fall asleep after baby was born, but that's fixed pretty much now and still EWs as.

EWs can be any thing from 4:30-6am (6 is a a good day!). Naps are inconsistent as he sometimes refuses them, sometimes is OT and sometimes UT. Generally they are around 12:30/1:30 for an hour max. We wake him after an hour/45 mins. Lately the naps are getting a bit later, like 1:30-2:30. We tried pushing BT back and tried keeping it the same...

BT has been consistently around 7:30 and he is usually asleep by 8 and usually tired. We have tried early BTS and later ones, but we just end up with the same EWs.

He is clearly tired when he wakes up that early and does not make much fuss with naps when he has an EW.

We have tried giving him a drink of milk by his bed in.case he is thirsty/hungry, we have a gro clock that doesn't seem to make any difference, we have started giving him supper before bed in case of hunger, he sleeps in a fleece onesie in case of cold, we tuck him in tight, he has multiple loveys, he has a reward chart, etc. I feel like I have tried everything, but there must be an answer to this!!! We cannot sustain this level of tiredness for the whole family and I want to move baby into his room soon, but not if he will wake her at the that time!!

So, ANY drastic suggestions welcome. Any wisdom sought!

Also, how long should I try tweaks in the routine consistently before trying something else? maybe we have been chopping and changing too much...

PS he has always been a somewhat EWer. I am not expecting 7:30 WUs although that would be lovely. Even 6am is acceptable in this house. His groclock is set at 6:30 because when I was at work that's when we were getting up.

PPS he is not fully potty trained... He still wears a nappy at night and refuses poos on the loo. He usually does have a bowel move,to early morning, but usually once he is already awake. My fear is that this is a reason for the EWs, but I want to try what I can before just giving in for now!

Thanks!!!

[ZacsMumme]

3 yrs marked the start of a period of bad sleep for my DS1 who overall is a good sleeper YK? I guess I'm saying developmentally it's a rough period for sleep for Really good independent sleepers too

With EW that early what time do you do Bt with no nap? I know when Z needed to drop it we had faffing around at Bt for hours rather than EW but same thing really - silly long day!

Can you give me a typical NND and nap day in EAS ie
Nap day
WU 5
Nap 1.30-2.30
Bt 8

NND
WU 6
Bt 6

[bongabees]

On a good day, last week we had three nap days in a row like this:

WU 6am
Nap 1-2
Asleep by 8pm

But naps are getting later again, like 1:30-2:30 the last few days.

Yesterday was
WU 5:40 (after NW at 4:30)
Nap 1:30-2:30
Asleep by 8:30
And this morning WU at 5:20

NNDs were looking like this:

A good one:
WU 7:30 (again after a loon NW at 3:45)
Asleep by 7:30
WU 5:15

One bad one:
WU 6:15
BT 6:30 asleep by 7
NW at 10 pm and 3:45am (loooong)
WU 7:30 (I had to wake him for nursery)

[ZacsMumme]

Owch those are some short nights. Will he settle if you pd earlier to catch up on OT? Or likely wake even earlier.

What about trying a later nap ie 2-3

My gut tells me you may have to ditch the nap end push through the OT but I'll get some more eyes on this for you first x

[bongabees]

Thanks! I could try a later nap ... What would I do with BT? keep it the same?
How long should I try a routine tweak before seeing the difference?

[ZacsMumme]

Have you tried EBT for him to cu, so say 3 days of 6-6.30 bt

[bongabees]

So far haven't tried very EBT because the days he wakes so early he is desperate for a nap and wouldn't make it til then. When we get a good night, I will try EBT.

Last night we had a good night of 8:30 (by the time he was asleep - BT was 7:15 but lots of shinnanegans) and WU at 6:30. Will see what happens today about a nap. Still a short ONS but a later WU so if he has  a NND then we will try EBT.

[barbaraz78]

Sorry you are going through this difficult patch. What it occurs to me (you may have tried this) is that the A time from wu to nap is very long, so he could be already OT by this point. With such a early wu and short nights I would be tempted to try a earlier and longer nap.
Also, a 15 h day is definitely too much with a 1 h nap. It could be OK with a 2 h nap, but with a 1 h nap this makes for a 14 h total A time, which is really a lot. Would he nap at 12 when he wakes at 5.30-6? If not, just to rule out OT at nap time, you could try a very early nap, like 11.30, and keep it longer up to 1.45-2 h. It is something you could do for one or two days, then hopefully he can catch up OT and he lengthens the nights.
My DS has always been a 10.5-11 h nights sleeper, and he never catches up with an earlier bt. So he needed the nap for longer than others and I used the nap to compensate when he had bad nights, to keep OT at a bay. Hope it makes sense.

[bongabees]

Thanks for the suggestions. I guess it's trial and error with consistent routine for a few days etc...

Will try a longer catch up nap tomorrow as he seems OT.

He seems to have days of OT and days of UT... Maybe that's just the way it will be til he drops the nap completely?!

[ZacsMumme]

He seems to have days of OT and days of UT... Maybe that's just the way it will be til he drops the nap completely?!

Yes this is what I was saying earlier, that he is in an ut/OT loop with the changing nap/nn days.

Honestly I'd be tempted to go ct on that nap. Or first see if sebt works on a nap day helps and if so you know it's more OT than ut.

[bongabees]

Thanks, well we have been trying to just be consistent with in bed latest 7:30 on a nap day, despite what time he naps. The last two nights were getting better... We had that 8:30-6:30, then 7:45-6:45 last night. That is great for us. I think he had got OT. Reluctant to just drop the nap, he hasn't had a NND for ages now and seems to be better for the consistent naps. With NND we had EBT, NWs and EWs. Will see how he goes with the cut nap and consistent BT, but my hunch is that as soon as he catches up on sleep, it will all start again. :/

[ZacsMumme]

See if things settle Hun, if not you know where we are

[bongabees]

Thank you all! We had a 7am WU today! Making progress!

[Khadija]

Hi bongabees!
Don't know if you remember me from the dropping the nap thread. But i thought I'll let you know what happened with me.
My daughter turned 3 a few weeks ago. And BT was getting really late so i thought I'd drop the nap. Terrible mistake on my part. I think originally she was UT and then OT and then it got so bad even with naps she was having NW EW. I wouldn't even know that she woke up. She'll just come and play in the living room. And I'll wake up at 7 and she'll be fresh as a daisy! Other nights when i wake her up in the morning she'll be soo tired. So i started recording her at night (through the baby monitor) and realised she was having 2-3 hrs long NW! Playing quietly. I have the monitor on quite low volume cause our 10mo is still in our room.

So long story short. I gave up on the idea of NNDs. And gave her a nap about 4hrs after an EWU and letting her nap until 6-7hrs before BT. So only 10-11hour days. But she really needed to catch up on her sleep. Then she had a normal WU so i let her nap 40mins after 6hr from WU, but NW and a EW again. So after a lot of experimenting i realised she still needed at least 1.5hr nap (halfway through the day) and 10-10.5hr nights. She still sometimes has short NW or EW so i just give her slightly early and 2hr naps. And she seems to be finally nearly back to normal. My plan is to cut her naps by 15mins. Once shes back to normal and starts doing her late BT again.

Of course your situation is probably not the same. But i thought I'll share and let you know that some children just need their naps. My niece hasn't napped since she was 2.25yo and no issues with her. Some just make it look so easy!

I think the worst mistake i made, was just trying to stick with NND when it clearly wasn't working. You probably know your LO the best and I'm sure in the end he'll be right back to STTN regularly.

[bongabees]

Thanks for sharing Khadijah. I think I am just beginning to figure out that he also needs his nap, but he may need a very short one or a NND once in a while when I see those later BTs and long NWs (UT) creep in. He was OT and now he has caught up, we have had some reasonable WU times for the last week. Then the last few nights were getting later, and mornings earlier and last night a long NW. Now I know, "ok that's UT creeping in, short nap today, or a NND if he refuses". I have realised that I have always had to cap his naps and control his sleep like that. But I agree, he needs his nap still. I made a mistake also just going for NNDs. Right, time to wake him up!!! Thanks for your support ladies!