Author Topic: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?  (Read 3753 times)

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Offline Mayflower7

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This is my first time posting here and I'm hoping the BW community will have some help for me!

I've tried for a very long time (since DS was about 8 weeks) to get a proper EASY routine going, but we are still all over the place. The main problem is that since about 9 weeks, he has only ever cat napped (30 mins). 

He is 5.5. months now and still only catnaps. We have no schedule to speak of. We do have a general pattern which is eat, play, sleep. But, nothing ever really happens at the same time, day after day, if you see what I mean. One day, he may wake up at 6.00 am, on another at 7.00. So because I follow his wake times, bed times also vary day to day, from 6pm to 7pm.

Each time, I put him down for his first nap 90 mins to 2 hours after he wakes. The morning time is the only time during which I can reliably read his tired signals (eye rubbing, lowering head when carried), and put him down without relying on the wake-time length too much. He self settles in his cot and wakes 30 mins later. I'm not sure why but his tired signals are much more difficult to read and interpret during the rest of the day so I always put him down too late or too soon for the other naps. I often end up putting him in the pram just to make sure he sleeps and we prevent ot/ut.

I am really confused by so many things I should be doing. Here is a whole list  :)

- Should I keep following his awake/tired rhythm, or should i give up on this and schedule naps at the same time each day? Is scheduling something he's likely to get used to? I've heard that some babies take about a week to get used to a scheduled nap time and then 'naturally' go to sleep at this time.
- Seeing as I can't prolong his naps (tried many times; failed), what should I do? 30 mins is clearly not enough for him as he's fussy during some awake times and wakes a lot at night. He's often tired only an hour after getting up. (But is impossible to get back down for another nap).
- How do I get a proper daily routine going under these circumstances? 

I will be going back to work soon, and I would really like to have more predictability to the day.
 




 
 

 

Offline Buttonbobs

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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2014, 07:04:57 am »
Hi there and welcome, a thirty min nap can be sign of being a little OT when going down for that nap, but it could also be a sign of jolting out of sleep for some reason. Those A times look on the short side for a 5.5 month old, have you seen this:

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

This suggests the average A time for an LO of this age would be between 2 and 2.5 hours. So it perhaps seems he might actually be a little bit UT for that first nap. It is possible he has a shorter sleep cycle and 30 mins is his one full cycle. How is he when he wakes for that first nap?

I agree that if you're getting a short first nap it is often important to shorten a second A time perhaps by 30 mins or so, but it is difficult to get that right.

Could you lengthen that first A time and see if it makes a difference?

If you go to him before he wakes and hold him still would that help him to stay asleep?
~ Naomi ~




Offline Mayflower7

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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2014, 13:58:25 pm »
Hi
Thank you so much for your reply.

Ok, first, I tried going to DS to shush pat as he stirs to get him to go back to sleep but no avail - he doesn't really stir he simply opens his eyes suddenly once 30 mins are up.

I've tried to lengthen the wake time but this resulted in utter chaos - I did sometimes get a 40 min nap after a 2 hour awake time in the morning and sometimes not. What happened after that is that is that his sleepy signals are sooo unreliable and I've no idea when to put him down.

He will start showing sleepy signs an hour after getting up. If I put him down for a nap then - it doesn't work. I try at 90 mins - doesn't work. At 2 hours, he's still resisting. So I've completely lost track by then as to whether he's UT or OT.

Is there a foolproof way to do this? 

Offline Mayflower7

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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2014, 14:19:24 pm »
I forgot to add - he is definitely tired after waking from short naps as he spends most of his wake time being fussy and grizzly.  He often wakes crying.

Offline lauradj

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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2014, 17:19:19 pm »
Could you post your EASY so we can take a peek?  I'm a visual person  :)


Offline Buttonbobs

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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2014, 20:21:13 pm »
There's no foolproof way unfortunately as LOs don't read the manual ;)

What I would say is each A time might be different as what an LO can manage will depend on a number of factors including length of he sleep/nap immediately before. As pps have asked, could you post your day in EAS format, then we may be able to help a bit more?
~ Naomi ~




Offline Mayflower7

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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2014, 10:23:46 am »
Hi all

Sorry, slightly delayed response as due to catnaps I don't get any free time :)


OK our EASY looks something like this


6.00 Awake (although this is anywhere between 6 and 7am)
6.15 Breastfeed
Active time - playing on the mat
7.00 solids (baby rice with some fruit)
7.30 nap (usually DS becomes drowsy within 90 mins of waking, and falls asleep on his own within minutes of being put in the crib. We have also done naps after 2 hours of waking but for those, I 'artificially' stretched the wake time)
8.00 awake from nap

- At this point, our day completely disintergrates and naps from this point on are pretty much guesswork.
- If DS wakes from nap crying, it means he'll be tired the whole wake time. Attempts to extend nap fail, and attempts to put him down early, and at 90 min and at 2 hr after waking. If he wakes in a good mood, putting him down for a nap also often fails at 2 hours, 90 mins etc.

The below continuation is what happened yesterday - Sorry this is not a strict EASY, more like a log of what happened (and you can see why we don't have an EASY!)

8.00 Breastfeed (these are very short; DS feeds only minutes on each side)
A: playtime but very fussy and tired the whole time.
9.30 - 9.45 attempts to put down for a nap - 'meltdown' which lasted until 10.20 at which point he fell asleep
10.20-11.00 nap
11.15 breasfeed
A: Walk in the pram, fell asleep whilst we were walking
12.20-12.50 nap in pram
13.00 quick BF
13.30 solids (puree)
14.10 attempt to put down for a nap; lost of crying and resistance (crying for 20 min until he fell asleep)
14.14-15.00 nap, wakes up crying and fussy (failed attempt to extend and put back down for a nap shortly after)
15.10 feed
16.40 overtired meltdown but on a 'second wind' afterwards
17.00 solids
17.20 bfeed, then bath, massage, and wind down routine.
17.45 in cot - fell asleep right away, no fuss (this is what puzzles me - awake time was 3 hours and he was clearly tired but made no fuss when I placed him in the cot)

- Although he was clearly tired in the daytime, DS slept well at night, semi-waking only at 22.40, 2.40 and waking up at 6.00am (this was our best night yet, we usually have about 4 wakings, especially in the early parts of the evening and in the light sleep stage after midnight...)

Notes:
- We do have a solid nap routine and I always take him up for a wind down in a blackout room white noise, nappy change, sleeping bag.
- He can self settle easily if I get the wake time right
-He's a great eater, we've just started experimenting with solids, eats really well
- No medical conditions, no obvious teething etc.
-He doesn't respond well to shush pat (only sometimes) and PU/PD drives him nuts
-Active times are usually rolling around on the mat, playing with toys, playing with family members, tummy time, walks etc.

Sorry guys, this is probably not very coherent but our days are generally not very coherent either! I'm either putting DS down too early or too late and I don't know which.

Help me get onto an EASY routine!!

Offline Buttonbobs

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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2014, 11:45:44 am »
I don't have time to post a full reply right now (I'll be back) but just wanted to say in response to this:

The below continuation is what happened yesterday - Sorry this is not a strict EASY, more like a log of what happened (and you can see why we don't have an EASY!)

Very few babies will follow a strict by the minute 'textbook' EASY, this is a flexible routine not a schedule :) Thank you so much for posting your day, the actual detail will, as lauradj has said, help us to see more easily what might help. Don't be disheartened that it doesn't look like a perfect EASY - very few do. ((Hugs)) for now, will be back later x
~ Naomi ~




Offline Mayflower7

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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2014, 13:30:19 pm »
Wow, thank you for the support! That's great to hear.

I forgot to mention that we have an early bedtime (6pm) based on max wake time from last nap. If DS happens to have a nap around 4.30, bedtime is 7pm. In fact, it was 7pm for quite a while, but it goes back and forth.


Offline Buttonbobs

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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2014, 17:35:26 pm »
Well it's a little tricky to say after one day (please do post the next days' EASY as they happen) but it does look like he might be OT generally, but I think that the cause of the OT is actually him being UT generally for naps and the naps just not being long enough. I do think if you push out the A times to nearer the average for his age and hold them there for at least 3-5 days to help him adjust then you will start seeing some improvement.

Something like this:

WU: 6 (or if later just shift the whole day later as needed)
Nap 1: aim for 8.30 am but no earlier than 8am

If he sleeps for an hour and a half or more then go for another 2-2.5 hour A time before a second nap
Nap 2: 11.30/12

And then you'll need to put in another nap in the afternoon to get you through, possibly around 3pm/3.30

If the first nap is less than an hour, you'll need to shorten the A time following, so say he wakes from that 8am nap at 8.30ish, go for 1.5 hours A time instead and the second nap will then be at 10am. It may take a week ish for him to adjust and he will still show tired signs earlier than this as he is used to sleeping sooner. Also, at this age, LOs start to appear tired (yawning etc) for other reasons, it can be they are just looking for a change of scene, so perhaps try going into a different room and doing something new or going outside if it is nice enough, and see if that helps you extend the A times.

You may have a few grumpy days as he gets used to it but it may well make a big difference - consistency is the key :)

Good luck xxx
~ Naomi ~




Offline Mayflower7

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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2014, 18:22:51 pm »
Oh thank you! That really gives me something concrete to go on. I did have an inkling that this was an UT/OT loop of some kind due to naps being so short.

Good point about tired signs being about something else. Ok, will try this new approach for a few days and see how it goes. I'm sure I'll think of another question before too long!

PS - most days are pretty much like this :)


Offline Mayflower7

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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2014, 13:18:56 pm »
Just a quick update to say we've tried to have the first nap two hours after waking (3-4 days now I think) but so far no luck, still getting 30 minute naps on the dot!
 
The rest of the day is scheduled according to 90 min wake times following the first nap. But again, no luck - they are almost all resisted!


Offline Buttonbobs

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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2014, 07:43:30 am »
What is her mood on waking at the 30 min point?

Has she ever taken a longer nap?
~ Naomi ~




Offline Mayflower7

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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2014, 09:19:33 am »
He  ;) is actually quite happy most of the time on waking after the morning nap; most afternoon naps are followed by a bit of crying and general fussiness during A time that follows.

Yes, in the past there have been longer naps: when he was about 7-8 weeks old, naps were between 1h to 2.5hrs, then suddenly stopped as he turned 8-9 weeks.

Then, when DS was about 5 months, there were isolated naps of 90 mins each and some of 40 mins. This was after a 90 min wake time *and* after a 2 hour wake time in the morning.  By isolated I mean, they happened one day (without any intervention) but the following day(s) just went back to 30 min morning naps.  ???

The EASY you see above is pretty typical of our days since DS was about 4 months old. 


 

Offline Buttonbobs

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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2014, 20:27:45 pm »
Sorry about getting the gender of your lovely LO mixed up - it had been a long day :)

The pattern you describe does sound a bit like an OT/UT spiral - short A times at the start of the day leading to OT and grumpiness by the end of the day. It might be that your LO has  nap sleep cycle of 30 mins rather than 45c, so a 30 min nap cod be UT.

Have you tried lengthening those A times?
~ Naomi ~




Offline Mayflower7

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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2014, 09:19:17 am »
No worries   :)

So, I lengthen the A times and had a couple of good naps but still no luck on the whole. This is what the first EASY looked like in the morning for the last few days

Day 1

Woke up at 6.45am
E: 7.00
A: 6.45-8.40 (including wind down)
S: 8-45-10.00 (first ever long nap in ages!)

E: 10.05
A: 10.00-12.00
S: 12.05-12.30

E: 12.40
A: 12.30-14.30
S: 14.40-14.50  :(

E: 15.00
A: 15.00-16.00 (very tired due to earlier failed nap)
S: 16.00-16.30

Bedtime 18.20, asleep straight away


Day 2
Awake 7.40 (I know....I should be waking him up every day at the same time but I'm so sleep deprived atm that if DS sleeps late it's my chance to catch up on sleep seeing as I can't nap when he's napping!)
E: 7.50
A: 7.40-9.40
S: 9.40-10.20

E: 10.30
A: 10.20-12.00
S: 12.00-12.40

E: 12.50
A:12.40-14.20
S: 14.20-14.50 (fell asleep in pram whilst we were out A = walk)

E: 15.00
A: 15.00-16.30
Failed nap attempts

Bedtime 18.00, falls asleep immediately, no fuss, but frequent wakings throughout the night (18.30, 19.00, 20.00, 21.30, 23.45, 2.00, 5.00.....)

Day 3 (today)
Awake 7.15
E: 7.30
A: 7.15- 9.30 (was definitely OT when going to sleep as he fussed more than usual but still less than 5 min)
S: 9.30- 10.00  :(

So we are back on 30 mins naps again and DS is definitely OT as he's quite fussy whilst playing.  Aaa, these catnaps are really getting me down! He will be 6 months in a few days.

Thank you for your help so far!




Offline Buttonbobs

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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2014, 09:28:17 am »
So I think as you've held on a two hour A time for a couple of days and are still getting UT naps to begin the day and then he is becoming progressively more OT as the day goes one, can you stretch out to a longer first A time - try 2hours15 for a few days and see what happens.

(I know....I should be waking him up every day at the same time but I'm so sleep deprived atm that if DS sleeps late it's my chance to catch up on sleep seeing as I can't nap when he's napping!)

Don't worry too much about this - it will be part of him self regulating. I never work E in the morning at the same time, I know some do and some LOs need it, but just keep watching his cues and go by A time for the moment.

A: 7.15- 9.30 (was definitely OT when going to sleep as he fussed more than usual but still less than 5 min)S: 9.30- 10.00 

Fussing when going to sleep is not necessarily an indication of OT, but even if it is a sign that he is tired, it could actually be that he is very tired overall due to the UT/OT spiral. The way to get out of this is still to lengthen the A time, even though it seems counterproductive. Have a go and see what happens.

((hugs))
~ Naomi ~




Offline Mayflower7

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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2014, 12:10:06 pm »
Thank you! I will definitely keep trying, and will post an update soon!

Offline Mayflower7

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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2014, 09:00:44 am »
Update!

So, I've been doing 2 hours, then 2hr 15 min then 2.5hr wake times for about 10 days now and ....no luck!  :-\

All the naps are still 30 mins. Should I just admit defeat and give up now...!? DS is now 6 months

Do I need to make the first A time even longer? It's quite hard keeping him up 2.5 hours as it is as he is clearly tired after being up for 2 hours.


Offline Buttonbobs

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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2014, 19:36:00 pm »
I wouldn't give up yet, ((hugs)). Have you kept a record of any of the last few days that you could post for us to have a look at?
~ Naomi ~




Offline Sarah - Enfys' Mum

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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2014, 20:08:40 pm »
Hiya, just wondering if he suffers with reflux at all?  Have you started solids yet? 





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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2014, 19:03:54 pm »
Hi, I haven't read the full thread but had a browse through.
The EASYs above show LO is feeding about 10 mins after waking so the E is less than 3hrs apart (one of them is 2hrs 20) it could be that he would feed better/more if you looked at extending the E even with short naps so he can take a larger amount of milk and keep himself going until the next E I would try to get to at least 3hrs between E. Most 6 month olds (and most 4 month olds) go 4 hr between E, this is a bit harder on short naps but I think he could go 3 hrs even if 4 isn't possible, don't you think?  My thinking is that smaller feeds on short E times mean he is ready for another E during his nap so less able to self settle and continue to sleep.

I agree he prob has a 30 min cycle (I think Naomi said this before), so probably waking UT, maybe hungry and perhaps also it's that he can't transition?  You could try W2S starting at 20 mins and right through the transition until he is in deep sleep.  But I think you would need to get the A time extended to see results from W2S.

If you are really fed up with these short naps and want to go full on to get into a routine then you can commit to keeping him in his room until the end of nap time (or almost the end) regardless of nap length and then keeping him up a full A following the 'end of nap time' rather than timing the A from WU (this is like using set times for naps for a few days, after the initial training period you return to watching cues and being more flexible if a slightly shorter or longer A is needed based on level of tiredness and stimulation) .  Doing this is very hard work and it is pointless to begin if you don't see it through, there is likely to be shouting and crying and frustration as you impose the new routine, but, a routine should be established in 3 days instead of going on for weeks trying to nudge the A time up.
It's your choice though.


Offline Mayflower7

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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2014, 20:46:46 pm »
Hi all

Thank you for your replies. 

Yes, have started solids but at the moment they are not really 'meals' just a few teaspoons around 'mealtimes' (usually an hour after milk feeds), as DS isn't really that interested yet.

Reflux - consulted our GP on this (at 8 weeks though) and he ruled it out, and I didn't pursue it as DS didn't show any reflux symptoms.

Creations, you raised some really good points I hadn't considered. Yes, E is very frequent, and ideally I'd like to reduce these but I'm not sure how to do so given the catnaps. I also didn't think about how this might impact napping, but your points are very good and I'll need to go over my observations to see what's happening....

Regarding your point on the 'scheduling', yes, this is something I might consider if catnapping doesn't improve in the next couple of weeks. I was wondering initially if this kind of scheduling may work - whether LOs adapt to it - and it looks like this is something that is worth exploring, as a last resort! 

Does it really only take a few days to work?

Offline Mayflower7

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Re: How do I do the EASY routine with a catnapping 5.5 month old?
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2014, 21:30:45 pm »
Also, here is today's EASY. All recent EASYs have been pretty much the same

 
Awake 6.40
E: 7.00
A: 6.40-8.50
S: 8.55 - 9.30

E: 10.00
A: 9.30 - 11.40
S: 11.40-12.10

E: 12.20
A: 12.10-14.10
S: 14.10 -14.50

E: 15.00
A: 14.50-16.50
S: 16.50-17.15

E: 17.30
A: 17.15-19.15
S: 19.15 (bedtime. So far, crying/screaming in sleep but not really 'eyes open' awake, at 21.00 and 22.00).
 
Looking at this EASY above, I think the previous comments about E really does make a lot of sense. I really need to pay more attention to timings of the feeds. I think I was just doing the 'feed after each nap' just to get DS to learn that feeding follows sleep. But yes, his post nap feeds are often very short, and even his longest pre-bed time feed is ten minutes max! He wakes up a lot during the night (pretty much every 1.5 to 2 hours.... on a rare occassion, 3 hours...), and I assumed he was waking out of habit, not that he may genuinely be hungry - if I feed him at night he never feeds more than a couple of minutes.

Ok, will start paying attention to this a lot more now, thank you all for your input.