15mo to set naps or follow A time?

[Hellomama]

Hello everyone,

(I apologise for how long this post ended up being).

I have a question in regards to set naps. My DS is a spirited 15 month year old. He has been primarily on 1 nap for a month but some days I have to do 2. During the day he can't self settle but he can at night. I go by his A time to the minute as his sleep window is very small, he has a high needs for sleep but of course never wants to sleep. His usual day looks like this (sometimes he sleeps for 13hrs at night but I do see him moving around a lot at 11PM for at least an hr or so before I cant watch any longer and fall asleep):
WU 07:30
A 5hr (just reached 5hr-ish A time today)
S 12:30 - 14:00 (1hr30m but may be between 30m-2hr30m)
A 5hr30m (he got use to long A times before bed from the 2-1 transition, EBT still had long A times)
BT 19:30 (I try keep his bedtime at around 19:30 unless he has had a late nap)
Since he has been taking his nap around the middle of the day, even though I do follow his A time very strictly, I wonder if he has gotten use to it and I no longer need to go by his A time, but instead stick to a scheduled nap? The reason why I ask is because this week when he woke early I put him to bed earlier but he didnt sleep well, but on the Thursday, even though he woke early, I put him to bed closer to his usual time and he slept better, details below.

On Monday (19/05/14) I got his A time wrong (or he's going through something, learning to talk maybe, his front tooth cut last week but he slept great through that) and only got a 20m nap all day. After a short nap I never know what A time he needs but usually close to a full A time works (is there a guideline to A times after short naps). His day looked like this:
MON (19/05/14)
WU 08:15 (I think it was earlier because I wasn't watching the monitor)
A 4hr50m + 25m it took to settle him
S 13:30 - 13:50 (20m)
A 3hr15m
S failed
A 5hr20m
BT 19:10
NW 19:35 (let him self settle)
S 20:45

TUE 20/05/14
WU 05:20 (moved around slept on off)
WU 06:30 (got up)
A 4hr50m
S 11:15 - 11:50 (35m)
A 4hr20m
S 16:10-16:30 (20m)
A 3hr45m
BT 20:15 (he self settled took 20m)

WED 21/05/14 (turned 15 months today)
WU 06:30
A 5hr (I was running late to get home)
S 11:30 - 12:10 (40m)
A 3hr55m
S failed
A 6hr30m
BT 18:40

THU 22/05/15
WU 05:30 (woke to find him rolling around and then I fell asleep)
WU 06:30 (I woke again to find him still rolling so I got up and watched the monitor)
WU 08:30 (for 2hrs I watched him roll then he finally sat up and cried out to me)
A no idea
S 11:30 (I was at doc so my dad tried to put him to sleep for the first time but it didn't work)
S 12:30 - 13:45 (1hr15m, I got home and put him to bed, he's very difficult to put to sleep)
A 5hr45m
BT 19:30

FRI 23/05/14 (Today)
WU 07:25
A 4hr55m
S 12:20 - 13:50 (1hr30m)
A 6hr10m (longer than I wanted but had to pick up husband from work)
BT 19:55

If set naps is the way to go, do I set his bedtime as well, regardless of what time he wakes from his nap? Its usually 7:30 but im hoping for his naps to get longer and therefore his A time before BT will get smaller.

If he had a bad night and I let him sleep in, or if he decides to sleep in himself, does that mean I still do his set nap time and BT or do I push his nap later and therefore have a later BT? Or do I wake him up so that his A time is at least 5hrs to meet the scheduled nap?

If naps are set, how do I know when he needs a push in awake time? or do they stay consistent until they drop the nap? What is the avg A time for a 15mo?

If he sleeps longer than usual for his nap and pushes his bedtime later do I just put him down at the same time or wake him up to make bedtime at his usual time? I would like his nap to be at least 2hrs so it might mean shorter A time before BT.

Does scheduled naps mean I should always wake him at the same time every morning? He usu wakes at 7:30 give or take an hour.

Again I'm so sorry for this crazy long post!!!

Thanks everyone!!

xx

[HenaV]

Hi!

Have a look at this link. It should help to answer some of your questions. Perhaps when you've had a look you can post re: anything you are unsure about?

Set naps for toddlers: Why, How and When

Hena

[Hellomama]

Ok thank you! I'll have a read and get back to you.

[Hellomama]

Hi
I've just had a chance to read the info. Thanks for that! I was wondering:
Do I always wake him at 7:30 to keep my schedule for the day
WU 7:30
Nap 12:30 - 14:30 (I'm hoping it will eventually be this long)
BT 19:30

If he doesn't sleep well for his nap do I try keep as close to 7:30 as possible? Eg sleeps 12:30-13:00 so bed at 6:30?

If he naps longer than usual say 12:30-15:00, would sticking to the 19:30 BT still be ok?

If he hasn't slept well at night, should I still wake him at 7:30 and keep to the schedule or do I let him sleep in? Even if he had a good night sleep, should I wake him at 7:30?

I'm just afraid of set naps coz he is so spirited and his sleep window is so small that I'll be second guessing myself everyday.

Thanks for your help.

[HenaV]

Hi!

I think the idea is to stick to the set times each day to set the lo's body clock. So to that extent I guess yôu would WU in the morning, allow the same naptime (and amount of sleep) and BT.

I always work on this basis though, naptime can be up to 15m earlier and BT 30m earlier if circumstances require it. My dd isn't spirited though!

I'd perhaps implement say a set naptime first and be flexible on BT depending on how the nap goes. Once you've sorted that, maybe then set BT? - that way you'll be able to assess his response as you go and manage any OT via EBT if necessary. There will be an element of it when using set times btw xxxx

[Hellomama]

Hi thanks for the reply. I've been trying for 2 days now and only 30m naps so far. I really hope this works for spirited babies. How long do you think I should try for before going back to A times? Thanks.

[HenaV]

Tbh I'm not sure with spirited babies but I'll try and get you some more eyes.

As a general rule LOs can have short naps and get OT in the first transition to set naps/BT. I always suggest implementing any change for 3days to a week to give things a chance to sete to be able to assess if it's working x

[Buttonbobs]

Just coming on to add some support

I have done set naps but with my DD who is very good usually at managing OT. I agree with Hena that you'll need to see at least 3 days to see if the set naps suit, but often when setting naps I'd give longer (a week to ten days) to see if he can adjust.

Are you bringing BT much earlier after the short nap or just the 30 mins?

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

I have three spirited kids and have done set wake up/naps/bedtime with all 3 at various stages (DD1 not until we went to one nap, DD2 from a few weeks old and DD3 has a set bedtime but wake up & nap are a bit more fluid).

My DD2 had a short window as well (a wee bit touchy with her spirit!) and I found it much easier to do set naps as she responded well to it. The other two don't seem to need it as much, it is just easier on me! They also had a set nap at daycare so that helped to reinforce it at home.

I would for sure give it a good week to see how it works and unfortunately unless they were sick or had a really horrid night I woke them at the same time (give or take 10-15 min) and only did ebt if the nap was a total loss. Mine handled ot fairly well though once they were mobile and we could do things to keep them distracted.

[Hellomama]

Hi,
Thanks for the support everyone! So the past 3 days:
WU 7:30
Nap 12:30-13:05 (give or take a few mins, weird but it's been 35m and not 30m)
BT 19:30 (MON) 19:10 (TUE) 18:50 (WED)

I'm trying to make BT earlier but finding it hard due to DH's work. Do you all think I should try and make his BT even earlier? Do you think he is in an OT loop now? He is waking at night and screams but does settle on his own. He isn't handling being OT very well. My days have been spent trying to stop him from screaming and throwing things at me with many tantrums. 3 days down 7 to go! Fingers crossed!

I didn't realise you could do set naps earlier on as newborns. Something I will def consider if I ever have another. My days of counting minutes and A times have been so exhausting.

Thank you HenaV, Buttonbobs and MasynSpencerElliotte for you're help.

[MasynSpencerElliotte]

You can do set naps earlier, but it def does not work with all babies - DD2 is a very by the clock kid, even now, so it worked for her and with DD3 it is just easier to work off of a certain timeframe with two older kids...I did always firstly use A times and sleepy cues to judge when I thought the best set times would be.

I would try an earlier bt (mine rarely co-operated with that, but I see on the forum that it works great for a lot of babies/children).

[Hellomama]

I tried an earlier BT tonight but he just wouldn't settle until 18:45. Usually when I do it any earlier he thinks its a nap and wakes. I'll keep going and see how things pan out. Do you think once I get his set naps ok then I can work on training him to self settle for day naps? Nights are fine, it's just days he refuses to sleep without my help.

[Buttonbobs]

Usually when I do it any earlier he thinks its a nap and wakes.

How long after he has gone to sleep does he usually wake? NWs in the early part of the night can be indicators of OT.

[Hellomama]

Around 30m then he would wake and cry sometimes taking an hr to resettle. He's starting to wake earlier. 6:30-7 now. Do I strictly stick to 12:30 sleep? Will it make him more overtired or do I make it earlier like 12? Would small adjustments like that confuse him?
Thanks

[Buttonbobs]

If you're doing set naps you need to stick to the "set" idea, although you can go 15 mins earlier for nap if you feel it's really needed. Too much movement otherwise is not really a set nap and more following cues if you see what I mean.