Sleep and EASY support for spirited babies

[~Jen~]

Cathy, I finally have some time to reply!  My older 2 went back to school today.   Sending you {{hugs}}.  It is so hard with a spirited DC3 isn't it??   I think it is easier for me though because DD1 is 4 yo and in school for half days.  That makes a huge difference.   I think if DD2 arrived a year ago I would be in a much harder spot.  She is also quite independent which helsp too.  There isn't much that is easy with DD2 at the moment.  She has short napped since 6 weeks.  Seriously can count the number of long naps she has done on one hand.  I'm also completely guilty of still APOP naps.  She has cried and screamed before all her sleeps for months so I just don't really see how I can put her down in her cot when she is so hysterical.  I was so hopeful last week she seemed to stop crying during her naptime routine and I could actually get her to settle a few times in her cot independently.  It was short lived though as the last 2 days the screaming has returned.  I wonder if just hit the 4mo sleep regression?

Before naps, I only go into her room about  5-7 mins before she should be asleep.  I watch the clock.  We've been doing about 2hrs A but I have a feeling I need to incfrease it again as she is fighting me again.  She protests screams if I try to get her to sleep too early.  Her room is as dark as I can get it.  I always use loud white noise once asleep to block out the loud noise from other LOs in the house.  I use a lullabye song that I sing to her as we walk around the house before I go into her room.  I always do low key activities about 20mins before and walk around the house to relax her.  She is usually really charged especially when DS/DD1 are around and always poking/holding/playing with her so the walk helps get her away from it.  She always catnaps in the carrier and I will bring the other ones with me for a quick walk either before or after dinner. 

I hope some of this helps?  Hang in there... 

[NZ_Mum]

Thanks Jen.

I wish I could get DS2 into a Kindy, he's on the waiting list at 2 different places but there are a lot of kids ahead of us. The daycares that do have space cost a fortune and the hours are too long. It's not practical to put him into a daycare for so long when I'm at home anyway with the baby AND not earning any money.
He really could do with some daytime playmates though!!

I used to do the walk around before naps thing with DS1. It really helped him. But with DS3 I just don't have the time. Or I would if I didn't have to do other things like respond to constant demands by the other two and cook dinner etc. DH is no help. He just works and leaves everything else up to me.

We are definitely OT and having a GS I think. Plus I can see the two front teeth on their way up. Nothing close to popping yet but there are two teeth shaped bumps clearly visible. The fun continues!

I'm the same with holding and APOP for each nap. The crying if I try to put him down just doesn't seem worth it. I have white noise too and that helps I think, especially in the car if it is not a continuous ride (like lots of red lights).

I might try for a CN in the carrier. He has napped in there before. And at least you're not hoping for anything more than a CN then your expectations aren't too high!
That might be good for at least getting the dog a walk. Poor girl.

[newkidontheblock]

Sorry I didn't reply sooner, Cathy. Eris is killing me with NWs, EWs and taking an hour to go to sleep. This 2-1 is rough!

Jen has already given you such great advice. I just wanted to add that it will get easier soon. A times jump quickly once you're done with leap 19. We were only able to get the first nap to be 1.5 hours and then we did 2 CNs so maybe you could do CN - long nap- CN with the CNs being APOPd. Then between 5-6 again the times jump and you can move to 2 naps. I know everything seems so far away now but please stay hopeful. Here with support for you!

[~Jen~]

Also my DD1 is definitely getting far less attention than she should. Makes me sad but I hope I can change that soon as DD2 gets a bit older. The short naps kill me because I really get so little time with my others and when she is sleeping I end up helping DS with homework or school projects and DD1 just sits and colora or plays on her own. She has staeted waking at night to get "mama time". Lovely idea just not at 1-3am! She cries if I leave and wakes everyone else up. Oh and DD2 was up at least 5 times last night. 9pm, 12am, 2 and 4. Started day at 5:50     I just keep saying it will get better, it will get better! You are not alone!

[NZ_Mum]

Thanks ladies 😘
I guess I'm just a bit frustrated because I remember having the "leisure" to follow BW properly with DS1 and at this age he was self settling (albeit thumb sucking which has haunted us for years) and had a concrete routine of 2hr A followed by 2hr naps right through till 6mo. Then he had a predictable A time jump and so on.
What happened with DS2 at this age I don't remember as clearly, mostly because he was just no trouble at all!

And lastly I feel so bad for having created an OT monster out of DS3 and now am finding it very hard to see how I can get him out of it. I will try this weekend to get him some better naps. It's a long weekend too so I have an extra day of DH being home on Monday.

[~Jen~]

With the support of alot of the other BWers on my various threads, I've come to peace with the fact that with DC3,there will never be a perfect EASY routine.  It is just not realistic with 2 or more other LOs to care for.  My other 2 were the same, DS was IS by 4 months and DD1 had all sort of reflux issues but was consistently taking great naps.  DD3 - is so different.  No naps, and I have had to just use props to get her some sleep so not completely OT and wake my others at night/early morning.    It is hard and I get REALLY frustrated that she won't do at least one good nap a day.  I've worked hard to just let things go a bit and go with the flow.  But oh my what I would do for a 2hr nap!!  It would do us all a world of good. 

Fingers crossed for good weekend sleep  for your DS3.   That extra day with DH home should make it a bit easier to juggle everything?

[chauncycay]

Hi there wonderful insightful mamas!
I've read this and almost had tears in my eyes, I'm so happy I found this! I'm deliriously tired - going on 6 weeks of ~3 hour max stretches of sleep. Apologies if this is long or nonsensical.
I've read a few (limited myself to 3) baby books and way too much online and I loved Tracy's book the best. Such a beautiful blend and very respectful of these precious babies. Any advice I actually use with success has come from her book I've realized.
So I'm back to it.

I just took the quiz and I have a definite Spirited! baby with a touch of touchy, but I may have to attribute that to her reflux
We're trying to correct the AP as her reflux is controlled by meds and diet now.  Getting much better.
We have a great BT routine that's worked since week 3.  Very consistent. Dark, cool room with white noise. She's swaddle weaned three weeks ago and pacifier weaned just the last two days.
ok, clearly we've done a lot - maybe too much - poor girl!

AP:
Lots of extra cuddles for sleep, sleeping on us in her room.
Pacifier to sleep (bad, very bad, was good, now horrible).
Night nursing on demand - month 5 growth spurt from hell - extremely physical, trying to walk before crawling! ugh.

Ah spirited baby girl
Since month 5 she's up every other hour - or now with PU.PD once or twice a night (just started 2 nights ago) - for an hour and a half with a ton of crying   Terrible for her and her reflux and everything.

I think that's it - timing.  She's grown and we didn't adjust. We just watched the clock and kept it at the same routine from 4 months to 6.5 months.

She's hilarious. Super happy even after crappy 20 minute naps and tons of crying! Laughing once we're out of the room!
Will.Not.Sleep.

We're focusing on the schedule now.  I think that's the key.
The problem is that she gives us zero signs she's tired until we're at the cranky, hard eye rubbing, crying.
Sometimes there's a yawn - we head straight into her room!
So we're clock watchers. at 2 hours, we stop everything and wind down.
I just looked at the A time table and maybe she's not up enough for 6.5-7 months?

She's almost 7 months old (next week), is that the right idea? She goes from sleepy to OT in a second and then catches the second wind - quickly!  It's crazy!

Since we got rid of the paci two days ago it's not coming back and she's absolutely inconsolable once you miss her window - which seems to be almost every time!  
She's a terrible back archer and flailer and crier. It's horrible. I'm not sure how much more my back can take either from holding her ~30 times a night
At this point I don't know if she's UT or OT?

Any advice appreciated.  We will continue to find that elusive window...

[chauncycay]

oh! and first two bottom teeth appeared last Friday night.
Ack!

Schedule now -= I forgot to post:
Schedule
7:30a wake up
7:30 diaper change, nurse
8:15 solids and breakfast with us
9 a nap, usually 1 1/5 hours
10:45 a reflux meds
11 a 6 ounce bottle breast milk, 1-2T solids
1p nap, 30-40 mins
3p 6 ounce bottle breast milk
5p CN attempt
5:30p reflux meds
Walk if no luck napping, or after CN
6p 1-2T solids with us for dinner
7:30p bath, 6oz bottle BM, bed by 8:15p
Always up 40 minutes later.
11p dream feed, just 2 ounces, we just started this last week because she was up every hour!! Wanted to nurse. I started a bad habit in the month 5 growth spurt responding to everything at night with a boob (( I got her down to one nursing session, for just 5-10 minutes and the rest pacifier, that's why we started the dream feed to eliminate any night time nursing.
My husband gives her the dream feed.
Super lost and exhausted
She's a sweet happy baby other than exhausted.

[newkidontheblock]

Hi honey. You are right. She is doing the A times of a much younger baby. At 7 months, her A would be between 3 & 3.30. As you move to a higher A, you will be able to move to 2 naps of 1.5-2 hours and drop the CN. If naps are a bit short to begin with, you could opt for an earlier bed time instead. This is the first of the nap transitions and it can lead to a lot of OT, NWs and EWs if you move too quickly.
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months
Wakings soon after BT are generally indicative of OT. I feel that you are in a bit of an OT/UT loop at the moment. The dreamfeed is awesome - it is easy to wean so go ahead if it means no NFs.

[chauncycay]

Oh my goodness - I love you! Thank you for the tips and the link.

this is EXACTLY what is happening.  She's super sweet and then a NIGHTMARE to get down for anything.
But then crazy happy once she's up.  It's hilarious and exhausting.

Ok, I'm so very happy to understand what's happening!
I got her to CN yesterday for the first time in I can't even tell you how many months.
She did the usual 8:15 down after a ton of crying, then up at 8:45 then... 11p DF, then 4:50 AM!!!! I got so much sleep!
and... I got her back down after only 20 mins of 3 PU/PD! until 7:20AM!

oh... bliss.  there's a light ahead

Ok, off to deliver milk and relieve DH for a hopeful CN!
xoxoxoxO

[newkidontheblock]

Haha:) Glad to hear the positivity!

[chauncycay]

Woo hoo!
Same thing!
So we started without pacifier and with a modified PU/PD on Sunday. It's now Thursday and the extending A is definitely the key - so happy! Thank you!

Last night again, I got her to CN at ~4:45 - 5:15p
6p solids - tons, butternut squash everywhere!
7:15p bath / bottle
7:45p bed
8:20p ish up! crying hard (OT!)
8:45p down
... 11p dream feed
... 6:30am up!
I held her, a little pu/pd, but avoided any hard cry
"woke her" with words and cuddles and the lamp at 7:10a

EW question:
So what do you do when they wake up a tad early ~45mins - we're shooting for 7:30 but I'll take 7:15 for a few days and then move to 7am since that seems like her natural rhythm.

She wakes up usually crying when it's a little early. 
If it's within an hour do you just cuddle them in the dark until you want to start?
I hate to do that again because that's what we were doing and it's an over hold AP move that got us here... along with poor schedule transition.

I'm just so happy I got 9 hours of sleep (really 8 and then stared at the monitor in bliss in bed)
She got almost 10! so happy!

[chauncycay]

ok - crap
I'm pumping/working and DH is trying to get her down for morning nap as usual, but 15 mins later.
She woke up a little early too.
I held her for ~5 mins this morning to calm her and then woke her up.

He's now been fighting with her crying hard for almost an hour and gave up and has her sleeping on his lap.

So, when they do this and they crash on you, is that ok, just let them sleep for ~30 mins or whatever so they aren't insanely OT?
Does this derail everything, or do we just try fresh next nap  - but earlier?

How do you stretch A if they freak out?  I can handle more crying than DH, but I'm stuck pumping and working and can't do it.
I've usually got conference calls + pumping (lovely).
I handle the CN and nights, except the dream feed since she just wants the boob...

Any advice for the OT hard cry nap refusal spirited LO with this 3/2 transition?
I know we need to get through this before she hits the 8 month regression - disaster! She'll be 7 months next week!

[newkidontheblock]

EW question:
So what do you do when they wake up a tad early ~45mins - we're shooting for 7:30 but I'll take 7:15 for a few days and then move to 7am since that seems like her natural rhythm.
She wakes up usually crying when it's a little early. 
If it's within an hour do you just cuddle them in the dark until you want to start?

EWs are new territory for me too. We've just started getting them regularly. DD was a 12 hour + nights girl before this. Bah! So Tracy says that waking anywhere between 6 & 7 is acceptable. So just recently when we were getting EWs, I would rub her back/pat her - keep her in her crib and dozing any way possible. With the wakings we are getting now, it isn't possible as it is just a half hour before normal WU but I don't want to reinforce the EW by getting her up, so we hold her in the dark till as close to normal WU as we can get.

He's now been fighting with her crying hard for almost an hour and gave up and has her sleeping on his lap.
So, when they do this and they crash on you, is that ok, just let them sleep for ~30 mins or whatever so they aren't insanely OT?
Does this derail everything, or do we just try fresh next nap  - but earlier?

She sure is spirited. 15 minutes makes a big difference to these personality types. With DD I've found it best to get her down just 5 minutes early. Too late and she fights like crazy. But we went through phases when we did let her sleep on us just to save our sanity. Maybe he could put her down when she is in a deep sleep? Don't worry about these little hiccups. They will keep happening:)

We tried a lot of things with DD, so I can share some things that work for us
1) I am very particular about A times and all sleep. I know that some babies can go with the flow and can be put down at any time and will sleep off but Eris needs me to stick to her A time, so I do it.
2) We keep things low key for 15-20 minutes before naptime - sort of a pre-wind down. We read books, walk around the house humming/singing softly/talking and then go into her room just 5 minutes in advance and do our wind down. I am very careful about overstimulation and overtiredness.
3) We have her room VERY dark. This has really helped to lengthen naps. It is almost pitch black in there.
4) WRT to stretching A times - going for a walk is great. The fresh air keeps them awake without over stimulating them.

If she is crying hard at nap times, maybe a tweak in your wind down routine is needed. For example, DD used to sleep off without an issue for DH but make a right fuss for me. I had to tweak my routine from going into a darkened room to going into a bright room and drawing the curtains with her for the madness to stop (temporarily). We have time & time again had to tweak our routine - quiet time in her room with little finger play, changing the sleepy song etc till it clicked. Maybe DH just needs to get her down a bit earlier than he is now? Could you post the entire day's routine including PD times?

[chauncycay]

You are right! WD is critical and may need tweaking. Thank you!

So the weekends - with guests (grandma MIL this weekend, still here through tomorrow) are a disaster.
We try to stay to routine and keep it low key but everyone comes over and it's a mess.

DD is definitely OS.  I can see that now.  She's crying out the world before any sleep.  I feel awful for her.  She's having a blast and then hits a wall when we go in for a nap at 2.30 or 2.45 A.  We need to extend her A time, but slowly and it's like a wacky moving target.
This sucks.

Saturday night she did sleep 9 hours straight - yea! Difference? We asked MIL to go out with her other son for dinner.  Just us at the house. Regular calm, low lights, music, no one else for an hour before bed routine.

Sunday night 6 hours and then another 4.  But the going down was almost 2 hours of straight hard crying, with pass outs of 5 mins here and there.  Just awful.
We went out to dinner after the CN and we won't do that again.
Everything was ~20 mins late for bed and less WD.  Clear difference.

DH is tweaking her nap WD, walk before morning nap, just him, the dog and DD. Then he came in, read her book in the big bed in her room as opposed to the nursing chair (she now fusses the second you sit there without a bottle because she knows it's nap time).
Less crying, 25 min nap
He tried to soothe her in crib since PU/PD really winds her up now.  I think it got us through the pacifer/overholding transition, but we're done.
 
She self settled a few times throughout the night and the one time I had to go in to her I didn't PU, just had a hand on her and rubbed her head gently and actually - I did change what I said. it seemed to work for her (after a bit).

I'm about to deliver milk so we'll see how the afternoon nap went/is going...
once MIL is gone and we have a few days alone I'll post a full day schedule.
Working / guests I can't even think straight at this point